Ignatieff Supports Harper's Crime Bill (C15)

[benny]

He did several times. When the Liberals proposed it Tommy told them to take a hike. I don't see how you aren't getting this.

Renouncing a master thesis (as is the Douglas case) is much easier than renouncing several books written at maturity (as perhaps Ignatieff should do).

[punked]

I'm sorry. Cop out. He never renounced his own words on the subject.

I can not get over this I really need to point out the Hypocrisy here. Here Dobbin is saying it does not matter what you do when you are in government the only thing that matters is what you say at some point. It doesn't matter the Liberals cut EI to the bone in the 90's becuase they are saying they are going to change it now. It does not matter if the Liberals get power and don't change EI becuase they say right now that it should be. changed Do you guys see what I am saying? He is saying it is a Cop out to do the right thing.

Tommy did write a paper on Eugenics but then he went to Nazi Germany and became a changed man. He came back and went on to form government. He was given a chance to put those policies he wrote about into effect and didn't. In fact he said these are bad policies what we have to do is take care of these people. But Dobbin thinks those actions are a cop out? Seriously doing something is a Cop out? Instead what you should do is say something and do something different?

[punked]

Renouncing a master thesis (as is the Douglas case) is much easier than renouncing several books written at maturity (as perhaps Ignatieff should do).

I agree. However Douglas had a life changing experience which also made renouncing that thesis easy for him. Iggy however has not had that I got to believe he still believes those things.

Edited June 26, 2009 by punked

[benny]

I agree. However Douglas had a life changing experience which also made renouncing that thesis easy for him. Iggy however has not had that I got to believe he still believes those things.

Because of his family history, Ignatieff may conceive the world history as something that cannot be changed, as too heavy to be changed.

[punked]

Because of his family history, Ignatieff may conceive the world history as something that cannot be changed, as too heavy to be changed.

He may, he may think that people are good and evil and it takes "good" people too combat the evil people. He might be one of those people who always trying to prevent "another Nazi Germany." Problem more often then not those guys end up causing more harm then good. The Road to Hell......Right?

[jdobbin]

Tommy did write a paper on Eugenics but then he went to Nazi Germany and became a changed man. He came back and went on to form government. He was given a chance to put those policies he wrote about into effect and didn't. In fact he said these are bad policies what we have to do is take care of these people. But Dobbin thinks those actions are a cop out? Seriously doing something is a Cop out? Instead what you should do is say something and do something different?

And never said a thing about about his thesis and repugnant views. Never criticized the behaviour that was happening elsewhere in the country when he was in Ottawa. Cop out. He certainly should have had his hero status re-thought.

[benny]

He may, he may think that people are good and evil and it takes "good" people too combat the evil people. He might be one of those people who always trying to prevent "another Nazi Germany." Problem more often then not those guys end up causing more harm then good. The Road to Hell......Right?

If capitalism gets out of hand, we may need some kind of communist renewal and I don't see Ignatieff as a man who can do that.

[jdobbin]

Renouncing a master thesis (as is the Douglas case) is much easier than renouncing several books written at maturity (as perhaps Ignatieff should do).

You do realize that Douglas wrote what he did when he was an adult. Douglas didn't renounce what he wrote. And he certainly was alive and well when his party in B.C. continued to sterilize people.

[Remiel]

I am note sure that anyone who does note continue in academia would have much cause to care about their Masters Thesis after leaving school. Those things are not generally written for public consumption, and I am not sure that you would (generally) ever cite your Masters Thesis in anything more important than your Doctoral Thesis.

Of course, Academic standards at the various levels were different back in those days, but I still think the likely response to " Why do you not renounce your Masters Thesis? " would be a look of incredulity followed by, " Because I was not aware that anyone cared enough about it for it to be necessary. "

[jdobbin]

Why do you not renounce your Masters Thesis? " would be a look of incredulity followed by, " Because I was not aware that anyone cared enough about it for it to be necessary. "

Depends on what the thesis is and how it applies to their political viewpoint. Douglas was a provincial and federal politician. His own party in B.C. oversaw sterilization. It is important to know where he stood and while he deserves full credit for his actions for the mentally ill in Saskatchewan, he showed no leadership on the issue as a federal politician or statesman when his own party in B.C. was committing the act that he advocated in his papers.

And may I remind you that Douglas represented a B.C. riding at the time. That was the same time that the NDP ran the province. So, he was an MP in a province that received transfer payments for health from the federal government to carry out sterilizations. And you wonder why I am questioning what is viewpoint was and why he didn't see fit to criticize his own party?

Edited June 26, 2009 by jdobbin

[punked]

You do realize that Douglas wrote what he did when he was an adult. Douglas didn't renounce what he wrote. And he certainly was alive and well when his party in B.C. continued to sterilize people.

Dobbin says his BC party ignoring the fact it was the Liberals in BC who brought that law forward, and that was a law on the books for some 45 years before the NDP in BC took power. He is also ignoring the fact that the BC NDP is a separate wing of the party then the Federal party Tommy lead. I don't remember Trudeau at the time coming out against it either. See how he is grasping at straws.

Let's have a short thread time line of Dobbins grasping.

First he says Douglas brought it up in 1950 at the same time he brought up for the first time the idea of a charter of rights and freedom. This was his way of dismissing Douglas when proven he was wrong and the charter was an NDP idea.

That turned out to be false becuase Douglas rejected the idea of Eugenics in 40's shown when he was health care minster and batted down Liberal, and CCF recommendations of it.

When this is shown to Dobbin he tries to link Douglas to it in several different ways. Saying he never rejected the idea in words. However he did reject it again as health care minster saying instead of sterilizing people we should give them the help they need, this is what started Medicare in Canada.

Dobbin then loses it when shown the government to have Eugenics was the Liberal government in BC. He claims Douglas went back in time to get them to pass the law which happened before Douglas master theise was even published.

So now even the Liberals (Dobbins party) are the ones to pass the law he then links the NDP who held power all of 2 years during the time this was happening. The Liberals were in power in various forms for 15 years during this time period BTW. Yes the NDP should have gotten ride of the law but how does reflect on Tommy in anyway I don't know?

So he presented again with the fact Tommy rejected eugenics laws time and time again and what is his response? "Rejecting the laws were a cop out" Why is that again? Is because actions speak louder then words no? It is becuase Dobbin thinks you should say things instead of do them I guess.

So back to the original point unless you have evidence to the contrary. Tommy Douglas wrote one crappy paper. Went to Nazi Germany came back by all accounts a changed man. He wanted to put that paper behind him. So when faced with the choice of doing the right thing he rejected eugenics in all its forms. He went on to created the Bill of freedoms, and Medicare. He was the first to call for a charter of rights and freedoms 32 years before the Liberals. And you look desperate in this thread Dobbin.

[punked]

Depends on what the thesis is and how it applies to their political viewpoint. Douglas was a provincial and federal politician. His own party in B.C. oversaw sterilization. It is important to know where he stood and while he deserves full credit for his actions for the mentally ill in Saskatchewan, he showed no leadership on the issue as a federal politician or statesman when his own party in B.C. was committing the act that he advocated in his papers.

And may I remind you that Douglas represented a B.C. riding at the time. That was the same time that the NDP ran the province. So, he was an MP in a province that received transfer payments for health from the federal government to carry out sterilizations. And you wonder why I am questioning what is viewpoint was and why he didn't see fit to criticize his own party?

How many were Sterilized the years the NDP were in the BC government? I bet you don't know.

[punked]

And after some research punked finds out the BC's Sexual Sterilization Act was repealed under the NDP in 1973. So now you going to take back all you have said Dobbin? About the BC NDP, and Tommy in BC? So years the Liberals sterilized people in BC 15 years NDP did 0. I might need to edit my time line now that we know the NDP are the ones who put a stop to eugenics in BC a terrible LIBERAL policy.

Edited June 26, 2009 by punked

[jdobbin]

Dobbin says his BC party ignoring the fact it was the Liberals in BC who brought that law forward, and that was a law on the books for some 45 years before the NDP in BC took power. He is also ignoring the fact that the BC NDP is a separate wing of the party then the Federal party Tommy lead. I don't remember Trudeau at the time coming out against it either. See how he is grasping at straws.

It is not a separate wing. What a lie.

NDP members in B.C. are members of both parties. Lies, lies and more lies.

Douglas was a member of the provincial and federal wing of the B.C. NDP party.

While the Liberals might have introduced the law, the NDP kept it up and Douglas was party of that provincial party because his membership was for both.

Let's have a short thread time line of Dobbins grasping.

First he says Douglas brought it up in 1950 at the same time he brought up for the first time the idea of a charter of rights and freedom. This was his way of dismissing Douglas when proven he was wrong and the charter was an NDP idea.

Another lie on your part.

That turned out to be false becuase Douglas rejected the idea of Eugenics in 40's shown when he was health care minster and batted down Liberal, and CCF recommendations of it.

Another lies on your part.

When this is shown to Dobbin he tries to link Douglas to it in several different ways. Saying he never rejected the idea in words. However he did reject it again as health care minster saying instead of sterilizing people we should give them the help they need, this is what started Medicare in Canada.

He was part of a party that continued it in B.C.

There is no separate membership for federal and provincial members in that party. Douglas was a provincial member as well as federal member of the B.C. NDP party.

Dobbin then loses it when shown the government to have Eugenics was the Liberal government in BC. He claims Douglas went back in time to get them to pass the law which happened before Douglas master theise was even published.

Another lie someone who lies routinely.

So now even the Liberals (Dobbins party) are the ones to pass the law he then links the NDP who held power all of 2 years during the time this was happening. The Liberals were in power in various forms for 15 years during this time period BTW. Yes the NDP should have gotten ride of the law but how does reflect on Tommy in anyway I don't know?

Because he was a B.C. MP and a member of both provincial and federal NDP in that province.

So he presented again with the fact Tommy rejected eugenics laws time and time again and what is his response? "Rejecting the laws were a cop out" Why is that again? Is because actions speak louder then words no? It is becuase Dobbin thinks you should say things instead of do them I guess.

He didn't reject it in B.C., a province he represented.

So back to the original point unless you have evidence to the contrary. Tommy Douglas wrote one crappy paper. Went to Nazi Germany came back by all accounts a changed man. He wanted to put that paper behind him. So when faced with the choice of doing the right thing he rejected eugenics in all its forms. He went on to created the Bill of freedoms, and Medicare. He was the first to call for a charter of rights and freedoms 32 years before the Liberals. And you look desperate in this thread Dobbin.

You are in denial. Tommy Douglas: MP and member from a party that let eugenics take place in the province he represented.

[punked]

AGAIN the NDP IN BC are the ones who repealed the act in 1973. Yep Tommy Represented the NDP in BC when the NDP repelled the act. Look but the BC Sexual Sterilization Act for yourself and see Liberals Bring it in and first chance the NDP had at government they got rid of it. I knew that didn't sound like us to keep something like that. The party of Tommy Douglas who rejected these laws time and time again don't seem like the party to let them go on.

[jdobbin]

And after some research punked finds out the BC's Sexual Sterilization Act was repealed under the NDP in 1973. So now you going to take back all you have said Dobbin? About the BC NDP, and Tommy in BC? So years the Liberals sterilized people in BC 15 years NDP did 0. I might need to edit my time line now that we know the NDP are the ones who put a stop to eugenics in BC a terrible LIBERAL policy.

Another lie.

http://www.bcacl.org/index.cfm?act=main&call=f6adfcf2

The Sexual Sterilization Act, which was in effect in British Columbia from 1933 to 1979...

Sterilizations continued to happen as various lawsuits have shown.

http://www.spectrumsociety.org/Mediafiles/vansun03042002.htm

B.C.'s Sexual Sterilization Act of 1933 and its successor legislation, targeted people likely to bear children who for "reason of inheritance would have a tendency to serious mental disease or deficiency." The act was repealed in 1973. The four sterilizations at Woodlands occurred between 1973 and 1975.

And so it went according to the Association for Community Living. Secretly repealed but still happening all the while the NDP was in power? What?

[punked]

Dobbin now that we know that is was the BC NDP who got rid of the Liberal Eugenics law in 1973, and never sterilized anyone is your opinion on Tommy Douglas a bit different? I mean you clearly from the last post hold him personally responsible for anything that happened in the BC government so this is another instance of rejection from him personally. I think you should really take what you have been saying back.

[punked]

Another lie.

http://www.bcacl.org/index.cfm?act=main&call=f6adfcf2

To see Dobbins lies I would suggest anyone to look up BC sexual Serialization act which was repealed in 1973 under the NDP

"The B.C. Sexual Sterilization Act was repealed in 1973 (Alberta Institute of Law Research and Reform, 1988)"

Sterilizations continued to happen as various lawsuits have shown.

http://www.spectrumsociety.org/Mediafiles/vansun03042002.htm

Yepp illegal Sterilizations did continue to happen, so did illegal murder, so did illegal pot smoking. You can only write and enforce law, you have hope the people fallow them. At the least the NDP had the nads to repeal the law.

And so it went according to the Association for Community Living. Secretly repealed but still happening all the while the NDP was in power? What?

Never argued that illegal sterilization occurred. They are still occurring today but the NDP did the right thing and got rid of the law. Good old Tommy you always count on him to do the right thing.

I am going to bed but you are grasping and the fact remains the charter of rights and freedoms (which could have stopped the eugenics the Liberals committed in BC) was an NDP idea in the 50's and should have been pushed through then. There would be no need for this arguement if everyone didn't Laugh at Tommy Douglas at that meeting 1950. It would have been stopped in its tracks then it would not have taken an NDP government in BC to stop it in 1973.

PS Dobbin has not once said the Liberals were wrong to put this law into effect BTW.

Edited June 26, 2009 by punked

[jdobbin]

To see Dobbins lies I would suggest anyone to look up BC sexual Serialization act which was repealed in 1973 under the NDP

"The B.C. Sexual Sterilization Act was repealed in 1973 (Alberta Institute of Law Research and Reform, 1988)"

Which the Association for Community Living for B.C. said didn't really happen till 1979. What a bunch of lies.

Yepp illegal Sterilizations did continue to happen, so did illegal murder, so did illegal pot smoking. You can only write and enforce law, you have hope the people fallow them. At the least the NDP had the nads to repeal the law.

Utter BS. Silent repeal meant that it wasn't enforced or monitored as the lawsuits show.

Never argued that illegal sterilization occurred. They are still occurring today but the NDP did the right thing and got rid of the law. Good old Tommy you always count on him to do the right thing.

More BS. He never spoke a word on the issue in all the years he was a NDP B.C. MP.

I am going to bed but you are grasping and the fact remains the charter of rights and freedoms (which could have stopped the eugenics the Liberals committed in BC) was an NDP idea in the 50's and should have been pushed through then. There would be no need for this arguement if everyone didn't Laugh at Tommy Douglas at that meeting 1950. It would have been stopped in its tracks then it would not have taken an NDP government in BC to stop it in 1973.

The lies keep continuing. Douglas didn't say a word about eugenics in. B.C. in all the years he was MP. It certainly wasn't high on his priority list.

PS Dobbin has not once said the Liberals were wrong to put this law into effect BTW.

I've always thought the law was incorrect. The NDP was incorrect to silently repeal a law while letting the the policy stay in effect for their entire time in office. And that party counted Tommy Douglas as a member representing that province.

[jdobbin]

Dobbin now that we know that is was the BC NDP who got rid of the Liberal Eugenics law in 1973, and never sterilized anyone is your opinion on Tommy Douglas a bit different? I mean you clearly from the last post hold him personally responsible for anything that happened in the BC government so this is another instance of rejection from him personally. I think you should really take what you have been saying back.

I think you should speak to a group that actually knows which is the Association for Community Living of B.C.

Their view of the NDP's silent repeal is quite clear as they say the policy continued till 1979. I think you should take back what you said.

[benny]

You do realize that Douglas wrote what he did when he was an adult. Douglas didn't renounce what he wrote. And he certainly was alive and well when his party in B.C. continued to sterilize people.

In the time of Douglas, the dangers of biopolitics were not yet foreseen.

[Argus]

The last three pages of posts should be deleted from this thread as they are completely off-topic.

[benny]

The last three pages of posts should be deleted from this thread as they are completely off-topic.

They are off but not completely.

[punked]

Which the Association for Community Living for B.C. said didn't really happen till 1979. What a bunch of lies.

Yet ever law book I pick up on the subject says it happened in 1973 under the NDP. Their may have been 4 done in 1976 without government approval just as their may have been one done in 2002 under a Liberal government. There is nothing you can do when someone takes the law into their own hands. That is why there was a lawsuit BECAUSE IT WAS ILLEGAL.

Utter BS. Silent repeal meant that it wasn't enforced or monitored as the lawsuits show.

Accept it was the number of sterilizations went down from about 50 a year too 0 accept for the 4 done in 1976 which have not been proved yet.

More BS. He never spoke a word on the issue in all the years he was a NDP B.C. MP.

He didn't have too his government got rid of it.

The lies keep continuing. Douglas didn't say a word about eugenics in. B.C. in all the years he was MP. It certainly wasn't high on his priority list.

It didn't need to be he rejected time and time again. As you say it was his government who got rid of the law and stop it from happening.

I've always thought the law was incorrect. The NDP was incorrect to silently repeal a law while letting the the policy stay in effect for their entire time in office. And that party counted Tommy Douglas as a member representing that province.

Gotcha it was wrong for the LIBERALS to bring in the law, and it was wrong for the NDP to get rid of it becuase it doesn't help your argument against the NDP. Funny when they got rid of the law they got rid of the Sexual sterilization I don't know if you read the lawsuits you point too I looked over them the doctors who did them never got the approval of the government. Sorry you are wrong as you have been. Get over it.

As for the deletion of the last three pages of this thread I am ok with it just take it back to where I show Dobbin the Charter of Rights and freedoms was an NDP idea. That would be great. I mean he clearly doesn't know what he is talking about anyway here.

Edited June 26, 2009 by punked

[jdobbin]

Yet ever law book I pick up on the subject says it happened in 1973 under the NDP. Their may have been 4 done in 1976 without government approval just as their may have been one done in 2002 under a Liberal government. There is nothing you can do when someone takes the law into their own hands. That is why there was a lawsuit BECAUSE IT WAS ILLEGAL.

I'm afraid that according to the Association of Assisted Living that the silent repeal did nothing from stopping the practice from carrying on unabated. The lawsuits were against the provincial government for not making the health authorities aware of the change in law.

Silent repeal is no repeal at all and the illegal activity was from the provincial government as the court decided.

Accept it was the number of sterilizations went down from about 50 a year too 0 accept for the 4 done in 1976 which have not been proved yet.

Once again not according to the Association for Assisted Living.

He didn't have too his government got rid of it.

And let it continue.

It didn't need to be he rejected time and time again. As you say it was his government who got rid of the law and stop it from happening.

But it didn't stop happening.

Gotcha it was wrong for the LIBERALS to bring in the law, and it was wrong for the NDP to get rid of it becuase it doesn't help your argument against the NDP. Funny when they got rid of the law they got rid of the Sexual sterilization I don't know if you read the lawsuits you point too I looked over them the doctors who did them never got the approval of the government. Sorry you are wrong as you have been. Get over it.

The NDP silent repeal (and that is what it is called), was no repeal at all. Get over it. Your hero said nothing, did nothing even though sterilizations were happening under his nose in a province he represented for years using healthcare money transferred from the federal government.

As for the deletion of the last three pages of this thread I am ok with it just take it back to where I show Dobbin the Charter of Rights and freedoms was an NDP idea. That would be great. I mean he clearly doesn't know what he is talking about anyway here.

It wasn't. Showed you it wasn't and you know it wasn't.