2009 Tax Freedom Day

[Smallc]

The concept that this society allowed me to do anything is reprehensible to me. The thought that I owe this society anything at all is even more so. Your entire focus has a fiscal tag line to it, as if society and life itself was nothing more than dollars and cents.

Sorry, but we all have a debt to society. We all owe Canada. You completely seem to misunderstand my view. Dollars and cents matter so much less than people. We need to put people before dollars, and that's why I find dislike of things like Equalization to be selfish. Life is far more important than dollars and cents.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Sorry, but we all have a debt to society. We all owe Canada. You completely seem to misunderstand my view. Dollars and cents matter so much less than people. We need to put people before dollars, and that's why I find dislike of things like Equalization to be selfish. Life is far more important than dollars and cents.

You owe society nothing, the same as it owes you! You have civic responsibility which is something entirely different in my view. I agree that people are the only important consideration in society. The rights and freedoms of citizens are simply the paramount consideration of society.

I understand the concept behind equalization, I just disagree with it. A more functional system can be found in Australia, even according to our own government;http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/...60-e.htm#howtxt

[Smallc]

Our equalization system works. It's as simple as that. According to that report, there is as much wrong with their system as there is with ours. We have a system, it works as intended, and because it's constitutionally mandated, people's likes or dislikes are irrelevant.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Our equalization system works. It's as simple as that. According to that report, there is as much wrong with their system as there is with ours. We have a system, it works as intended, and because it's constitutionally mandated, people's likes or dislikes are irrelevant.

97% of their equalization formula is monies collected from their version of GST. I will suggest that it is therefore somewhat, no let me rephrase that, COMPLETLY different than our own system!

[Smallc]

100% of ours comes from money collected in taxes....I really don't see the difference.

[Borg]

It all started with lib deficits - and the entitlement attitude has never gone away - so we simply use the rules of the rule makers against them - and take home as much as we can

Borg

Edited June 6, 2009 by Borg

[canfan]

Anyways, I find the only people that are happy about taxes are those that don't pay them.

You're asking the wrong question. Obviously noone is happy with paying taxes. Noone I know is happy they have to wait in line to renew their drivers license either. It doesn't mean that people think we shouldn't have renewable drivers licenses. If taxes were $1 for everyone there'd still be people who'd be unhappy. There are people who pay taxes who acknowledge that our taxes aren't as bad as what some would like us to believe and who don't begrudge the fact that we pay those taxes to live in Canada. And before you ask yes I do pay taxes.

[capricorn]

Taxes are based on income...you make more, you pay more.

That's a plenty good enough reason to discourage workers from striving to earn more. As someone said, the happiest people seem to be the ones that don't pay any taxes. As an added bonus, they get to enjoy all the services government provides. Over-taxation is a motivation killer.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

100% of ours comes from money collected in taxes....I really don't see the difference.

The GST is a transaction tax, income taxes are a payroll tax. The difference being one is collected before you get paid and the only when you pay somebody. There is a huge difference there.

[Smallc]

It's still transferring wealth..part of the idea of the country.

[Smallc]

That's a plenty good enough reason to discourage workers from striving to earn more.

That's simply untrue. Even if you get taxed more, you are still making a great deal more money. We have some of the lowest business taxes and mid range to low income axes when it comes to comparisons with modern countries....we really aren't over taxed and it doesn't seem that there in an absense of wealth.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

It's still transferring wealth..part of the idea of the country.

I have never been a large or small advocate of wealth transfer in the first place. I do understand the need for a revenue stream to fund government operations it is just that I believe income taxes to be regressive and unfair. Aside from that I would dispute that wealth transfer is part of the idea of this nation.

[Smallc]

Canada cannot have a consumption tax that is too high. We need income taxes and a low consumption tax because of the country that we live beside. We already lose a great deal of tax revenue to the US, ad we would lose significantly more if the GST were higher than it was.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Canada cannot have a consumption tax that is too high. We need income taxes and a low consumption tax because of the country that we live beside. We already lose a great deal of tax revenue to the US, ad we would lose significantly more if the GST were higher than it was.

Both the GST and income taxes need to be abolished and incorporated into a functional non-refundable transaction tax, period. Tax us on what we spend , not what we earn. That is how taxes are applied to business when you take a real good look at the system. What I suggest is to level the playing field for all concerned, business and individual, rich or poor. The more you spend the more you pay, no exceptions.

Think of how much money the individual would save by taking this road to revenue stream creation. Look how much business would save! If properly designed it would save everyone money including the government. It costs billions of dollars a year just to run Revenue Canada, and billions more are spent on tax lawyers and accountants. Lets clean up the system and make it fair to everyone.

[Smallc]

What we consider 'fair' is not necessarily so. No one of us has exclusive jurisdiction to decide what that means. That's why tax law is so complicated.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

What we consider 'fair' is not necessarily so. No one of us has exclusive jurisdiction to decide what that means. That's why tax law is so complicated.

Tax law has been corrupted by the affluent in society. At the beginning income was 80% corporate and 20% individual. Now with 10 times the population and 20 times as much business it has flipped to 20% business and 80% individual.

Tax law is so complicated because it takes advantage of those least able to pay it, the vast majority of citizens.

[Smallc]

I disagree with negative view that you take on most things. We have a good system that was setup and that has worked for the benefit of most (if not all Canadians). We are lucky to live here and live in such a well working place, and you seem to always want to find giant problems.....when in fact any problems that we have are very minor.

[capricorn]

That's simply untrue. Even if you get taxed more, you are still making a great deal more money. We have some of the lowest business taxes and mid range to low income axes when it comes to comparisons with modern countries....we really aren't over taxed and it doesn't seem that there in an absense of wealth.

Graduated income tax rates create strong disincentives for people to work hard, save, invest and engage in entrepreneurial activities. To understand how progressive tax rates act as a disincentive for Canadians to become more successful, it is useful to think of progressive fines used to curb fast driving. Speeding tickets are higher depending on how much above the posted limit we drive, and are meant to discourage excessive speeding. While certainly not the intention, progressive income tax rates have the same effect in that they discourage hard work and success.

When individuals make decisions to increase their incomes through working harder or longer, increasing their savings and investments, or hanging up their own shingle, the marginal tax rate (the tax rate they pay on the next dollar they earn) influences their behaviour. The more of an additional dollar in income that governments take, the less likely people are to engage in efforts to earn more.

An overwhelming consensus in the academic research supports this notion and shows that tax rates that increase as individuals earn more money through hard work and success, act as a disincentive for these activities.

Interestingly, the destructive impact of Canada’s graduated personal income tax rates has not been lost on consecutive federal governments (Liberal and Conservative). In 2005, then-Prime Minister Paul Martin’s economic plan, A Plan for Growth and Prosperity proclaimed that, “Lower personal taxes would also provide greater rewards and incentives for middle- and high-income Canadians to work, save and invest.”

Similarly, current Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s economic plan, Advantage Canada, stressed that, “Canada’s tax burden on highly skilled workers is too high relative to other countries…Canada needs lower personal income tax rates to encourage more Canadians to realize their full potential.”

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/newsandeven...aries/6699.aspx

As I said, our taxation system is a motivation killer. It discourages workers from increasing their income.

[Smallc]

And yet people do increase their income, all of the time. I understand the disagreement that some reformers have with the system, but I think this constant search or problems and this constant focus on the negative is not helpful....especially at a time when people are probably worried less about taxes than ever before. I also fundamentally disagree with the idea that people who have been able to succeed partly because of the society that they live in do not owe more to the soceity that they live in.

In Canada, people are free to do what they want, to make as much has they want, and all that is asked is that they give back a percentage of what they make in order to ensure that this society can continue with its current success well into the future. Most countries would be so luck to have a system (tax and otherwise) that would allow people such freedom, wealth, and equality of opportunity.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I disagree with negative view that you take on most things. We have a good system that was setup and that has worked for the benefit of most (if not all Canadians). We are lucky to live here and live in such a well working place, and you seem to always want to find giant problems.....when in fact any problems that we have are very minor.

I don't have to look for the problems they are thrown in my face. In the last five years I have paid more than 100K in income taxes. My family and myself are healthy and law abiding citizens who have not seen a return on that investment at all. I live in the country, so I do not benefit from almost 90% of the public spending on infrastructure and the like. At 50 years of age I have seen many governments promise many things but they all seem to cost me more taxes. Taxes NEVER go down, when one government reduces another adds and the total always trends upward. We are lucky to live here, and for the most part the nation does work well especially when you compare it to others. Yet we can do so much more.

I know nothing about your background, but it seems to me that you don't pay a lot of taxes and don't have many responsibilities because you suggest that system works well. That indicates that you have little contact or use with the system. If you did you would likely have a viewpoint similiar to mine, one grown out of frustration dealing with bureaucrats and fools.

[Smallc]

I can safely say that my family pays more tax than yours. We have a very successful business with $2M in sales every year in a rural area. The taxes we pay are for good reason.....andthey have provided so many Canadians with so much. I have no problem with the tens of thousands of dollars in taxes that we pay each yeah.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Smallc

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I can safely say that my family pays more tax than yours. We have a very successful business with $2M in sales every year in a rural area. The taxes we pay are for good reason.....andthey have provided so many Canadians with so much. I have no problem with the tens of thousands of dollars in taxes that we pay each yeah.

You say that your family owns this business. Where does that put you?

[Smallc]

That business pays for my school...and times I work there.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

That business pays for my school...and times I work there.

So in other words, your experience is limited.

[capricorn]

I understand the disagreement that some reformers have with the system,

You think only "reformers" disagree with the tax system? Who are "reformers"?

but I think this constant search or problems and this constant focus on the negative is not helpful....

So you want to focus on what works and ignore what doesn't work.

especially at a time when people are probably worried less about taxes than ever before.

Do you have any evidence of that?

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation (CTF) released results of a public opinion poll in advance of the 2008 budget, expected later this month. The poll was conducted by Praxicus Public Strategies Inc. for the CTF to determine what Canadians think of the personal income tax burden and gauge perceptions of the tax codes fairness and its complexity.

The CTF-commissioned public opinion survey found:

65% of Canadians say federal personal income tax rates are somewhat too high (33%) or much too high (32%);

63% of Canadians believe the federal income tax system is too complicated;

57% of Canadians deem the income tax system somewhat unfair (40%) or very unfair (17%);

45% of Canadians said income taxes should be the federal government's top tax cut priority with gas taxes second (18%) with payroll taxes and GST tied for third at 10% each; and

51% of Canadians prefer broad-based tax relief over 44% who like targeted tax measures.

http://www.taxes.ca/blog/archives/2008/02/...dians_say_p.php

A big chunk of the Canadian population says the ruling Conservatives should cut taxes to stimulate spending if the economy sours, according to a new national poll that also says a slim majority of Canadians would even accept the government chalking up a budget deficit under those circumstances.

http://www.taxes.ca/blog/archives/2008/02/...dians_say_p.php