The BIBLE and SCIENCE

[charter.rights]

Are you making fun of Toad Brother and Kimmy since they're the only sane ones left on this thread? Oh, you left out Ghost Hacked as well.

Interesting.....

You have not contributed on this thread most recently and yet it offends you. Maybe it scares you. But why try to interfere with something you aren't interested in?

You can always just skip over it you know. You are not required to read what you think is nonsense.

[jbg]

You have not contributed on this thread most recently and yet it offends you.

I'm in the thread about once or twice a day. But let's get one thing clear. I work for a living. Hard. And once in a while I do go to Court, which takes me away from the computer. And yesterday, I even stopped to buy gasoline, for transportation, not recreational purposes. When I see someone posting about every other minute I wonder if they're attending to their work and/or studies.

Maybe it scares you.

Huh? It takes a lot more to scare me than an inane thread on a political bulletin board.

You can always just skip over it you know. You are not required to read what you think is nonsense.

Why do you and a few others spend much of the day posting nonesense?

[charter.rights]

I'm in the thread about once or twice a day. But let's get one thing clear. I work for a living. Hard. And once in a while I do go to Court, which takes me away from the computer. And yesterday, I even stopped to buy gasoline, for transportation, not recreational purposes. When I see someone posting about every other minute I wonder if they're attending to their work and/or studies.

Huh? It takes a lot more to scare me than an inane thread on a political bulletin board.

Why do you and a few others spend much of the day posting nonesense?

I am self-employed, and currently working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day. I travel 3 hours each day to get to my office and I am not "constantly" posting. I view and respond maybe a couple times a day.

But that is besides the point because who posts here and when they post here is none of your business. If you are such a hard worker it would seem to me that you wouldn't have time for your petty and childish complaints. BUT you do, don't you. So maybe you aren't working as hard as you claim you are. Spinning your wheels and yapping your flap is not working.....

Maybe it does scare you. People can find time to discuss things that you find unimportant. I think that is called progress and democracy. Get over it. You are wasting your time and mine.

[jbg]

Maybe it does scare you. People can find time to discuss things that you find unimportant. I think that is called progress and democracy. Get over it. You are wasting your time and mine.

At least most of my posts are borderline coherent. Yours are often not. Granted, you're not the worst on this race for the bottom on this thread.

By way of example "(t)here are different levels of intelligence on this forum and I can unequivocally state you are not one of them," makes no sense. The other poster is presumably a person or mammal of some kind, not a "level of intelligence".

Edited February 6, 2010 by jbg

[charter.rights]

At least most of my posts are borderline coherent. Yours are often not. Granted, you're not the worst on this race for the bottom on this thread.

By way of example "(t)here are different levels of intelligence on this forum and I can unequivocally state you are not one of them," makes no sense. The other poster is presumably a person or mammal of some kind, not a "level of intelligence".

Can't keep up with tongue in cheek, eh? The fact that YOU can't make sense of it is proof enough that you are a lawyer. Life is not always about you trying to be the master of it. Sometimes you are required to be its servant.

[jbg]

Can't keep up with tongue in cheek, eh? The fact that YOU can't make sense of it is proof enough that you are a lawyer.

Yes, I know. In Canada "a proof is a proof". But yes I am a lawyer.

Life is not always about you trying to be the master of it. Sometimes you are required to be its servant.

Are you saying you are life and we are all servants?

[bloodyminded]

Yes, I know. In Canada "a proof is a proof". But yes I am a lawyer.

Are you saying you are life and we are all servants?

Don't attribute such an elevated level of coherence to his posts.

[charter.rights]

Are you saying you are life and we are all servants?

I get this is an example of your poor skills as a lawyer. You aren't even capable of twisting a statement with any finesse. I feel for your clients.

[whowhere]

I get this is an example of your poor skills as a lawyer. You aren't even capable of twisting a statement with any finesse. I feel for your clients.

Mr Electron Soup (Energy) = Mass/physical world is illusion (Zero) Times Speed of light Squared

It appears Einstein has Established CR to be a big fat Zero. Oddly though, some monkey must be hitting his keyboard, we are see posts come from his illusionary world into the real world somehow.

[kimmy]

I am still waiting for that btw.

As I said, you need only choose the parameters (sender, receiver, information, means of transmission) and I'll do my part.

I won't proceed until you set the parameters, because I suspect that whatever I write, your response would be "bah, that's irrelevant! I was talking about something completely different; something that I will continue to not specify."

A feeble attempt at intimidation by using the promise of someone's else's expertise to back you up in a time of need. New to the Internet are you?

You misunderstand. I'm not trying to intimidate you. I'm saying I think you're already intimidated.

It's become clear that you're not going to commit to any actual specifics as to how our brains might receive ideas from c-r's electron soup, and I think it's because once you stick your neck out you'll be in the position of defending something completely untenable.

What the heck are you talking about?

I use the OSI model because it is a stacked model for communications with discreet interactive layers at the bottom of which is the description of the fundamental actions of the elements of previous layers. {sigh} That hard for you to grasp wasn't it?

The physical layer is the layer at which information is converted into a signal, transmitted, received, and converted back into information.

For a communications model where the sender and receiver are both human brains, the physical layer is of necessity means available to the human brain.

The brain can transmit information by using the body's nervous system to effect mechanical signals. (speak, type, hand-signals, activating some mechanical device, winking, tap your foot once for no and twice for yes, make funny faces, etc.)

The brain can receive information using the 5 senses. (watched it, read it, heard it, Braille, SCTV Smell-O-Rama, etc.)

For humans, those are the start and end points of the physical layer; what's in between could be anything from carrier pigeons to smoke signals to a gigabit fiberoptics network to a neutrino-beam datalink... doesn't matter. It's beside the point.

No, but it is a part of a possible communication path isn't it?

A part of a path. But the start of the path remains your motor controls. The endpoint remains the human senses.

I have been arguing that our brains are not receiving information from elsewhere unless it comes through one of the 5 senses. Whatever the information path between you and me, the final step of that communication channel is one of our 5 senses.

Showing me two machines that communicate using pulses of light doesn't address my argument if the pulses of light get demodulated and turned into information that I receive through my senses.

Ditto for proposing a means of communication using a system that uses quantum entanglement or beams of neutrinos to send data across great distances, if the information gets demodulated and received through sight and sound. Who knows what might be technologically possible, but that's unrelated to the argument I'm making.

And the operations of your senses are also part of a communication path too yes? And in all of those paths, the application of quantum mechanics is coming into view: quantum biology Do you somehow think that your senses and their constituent parts are somehow exempt from quantum analysis and description? Please do explain that one.

Guh. I'm not arguing that our senses are not affected by quantum mechanics.

Whatever the quantum mechanical interactions within our senses, they constitute specific communications channels which we refer to as sight, sound, touch, smell, and taste. I do not dispute that quantum mechanics can be applied to all of these channels.

What I do dispute is the premise that our thoughts are inextricably tied together through "electron soup" or radiation or electromagnetic waves or neutrinos as c-r has been claiming.

Wow. This is from someone who is not "comfortable" with certain aspects of physics. Good for you. The non-existent possibilities is also a function of lack of information too. Unless you would like to proclaim that man cannot live and breathe underwater too?

Yes, I'm very comfortable with claiming non-existent possibilities for neutrinos as a communications channel by which thought might be transmitted from brain to brain. I think the neutrino's most well known properties (being difficult to detect, and having little interaction with material as it passes nearby) make it by definition an incredibly unlikely communications medium. I think Shannon would look at the influence of a neutrino on a neuron in your brain compared to the influence of surrounding noise sources on the same neuron, and laugh his ass off at the prospects for this communications channel. I think Heisenberg would probably tell you that the premise of using a neutrino with a required degree of precision would be fundamentally unworkable.

But if you want to speculate on how thoughts could be transmitted using neutrinos, please do. I'm fascinated to see where this goes.

-k

[whowhere]

I have been arguing that our brains are not receiving information from elsewhere unless it comes through one of the 5 senses. Whatever the information path between you and me, the final step of that communication channel is one of our 5 senses.

Where does the imagary of dreams come from? Your fixation on the so called 5 senses are man made constructs. They were labled as likely to direct attetion and focus to specifics. Carrier Frequencies and the information on them are not the same. Carrier Frequencies could be any time reference and not be measurable by current scientific instruments. If such frequencies exist the human brain could pick up these frequencies perhaps through the hair on your head or on your arms and legs. This information could then find its way back to the brain for processing. This could happen as cats use their whiskers to feel out their environment.

[Oleg Bach]

98% of the bible is about killing the other guy and taking his goods - his wife and his land..Why do so many people use this as a guide book for life..It was written by men and not God - God does not use a pen! The little bit of goodness that is in the bible was warped out of shape and twisted to suit liars seeking domain over their fellows. I have personally had enough with this piece of shit - the manuscript is a compulation of deivant instruction...I honestly believe that if God came flying down from the clouds and took human form he might suggest using this un-devine mind clutter as heat for a fire to warm his feet...Two thousand years and counting - NO - ten thousand years and counting and we are no better off than the secualarist as far as quality of human earthlty life..Time to wake up and get rid of science and the bible. Time to use our own good perception on what is real and what is not.

[GostHacked]

Where does the imagary of dreams come from? Your fixation on the so called 5 senses are man made constructs.

Some argue the 5 senses are construct of god. Anyways, dreams and imagery or though are something different altogether. And really scientists are only starting to understand the brain in these areas. But I will say the imagery comes from within. Your brain stores everything you see and do. It acts as a cpu/hard drive/ram all in one unit. So eventhough you may not readily recall something, your brain can bring up those past memories, thoughts and even past dreams I guess come back up through the sub-concious up to the id.Every thought dream ect that you have is all based on your all your experiences in your life. In the end, it is only the 5 senses we use to explore the natural world around us. Our brains put that all together for us in a way we can understand things.

They were labled as likely to direct attetion and focus to specifics. Carrier Frequencies and the information on them are not the same. Carrier Frequencies could be any time reference and not be measurable by current scientific instruments.

Once a carrier is detected we can measure the frequencies. Resulting in some kind of wavelentght. Frequencies could be infinitly short, or long, I guess.

If such frequencies exist the human brain could pick up these frequencies perhaps through the hair on your head or on your arms and legs.

So you still have a path, as well as a sender and a reciever. Not to mention that would use the sense of touch to feel things throuh your hair.

This information could then find its way back to the brain for processing. This could happen as cats use their whiskers to feel out their environment.

And yet that is still on the physical level, vibrations in the air. There are many animals that can sense vibrations in the air. We are no different but our bosdies have limitations on what it can detect.

[Shwa]

As I said, you need only choose the parameters (sender, receiver, information, means of transmission) and I'll do my part.

Leonardo DaVinci, you, meaning of a smile, Mona Lisa painting

You misunderstand. I'm not trying to intimidate you. I'm saying I think you're already intimidated.

Poisoning the well again eh kimmie? {yawn}

It's become clear that you're not going to commit to any actual specifics as to how our brains might receive ideas from c-r's electron soup, and I think it's because once you stick your neck out you'll be in the position of defending something completely untenable.

The fallacy here is Ad Tedium Ut Nex.

The physical layer is the layer at which information is converted into a signal, transmitted, received, and converted back into information....For humans, those are the start and end points of the physical layer;

Whoosh!

A part of a path. But the start of the path remains your motor controls. The endpoint remains the human senses.

That 'whooshing' sound you heard was the point going way over your head. Yes, the medium is the message. :lol

Guh. I'm not arguing that our senses are not affected by quantum mechanics...I do not dispute that quantum mechanics can be applied to all of these channels.

"Guh"

What I do dispute is the premise that our thoughts are inextricably tied together through "electron soup" or radiation or electromagnetic waves or neutrinos as c-r has been claiming.

No. Really? Is that what you have been going on about?

Yes, I'm very comfortable with claiming non-existent possibilities...

Then science is not for you since you have made it in your own image.

[whowhere]

And yet that is still on the physical level, vibrations in the air. There are many animals that can sense vibrations in the air. We are no different but our bosdies have limitations on what it can detect.

Frequencies are vibrations. You can't ascribe sensory interpretation to the the subconscious on one hand in the case of dreams and recollection and not ascribe that your brain and your body may have other unknown ways to gather information for processing by the subconscious mind. Do we really know how we are able to do things? We only think about the things we can do only when we no longer can't so is the nature of life. Science and biology has assessed the body to be made up of trillions and trillions of cells. The cells are grouped and work as one towards their respective tasks. Each cell contributes to the whole of what you are able to do. Our cells are the vehicle we the conscious beings operate. Because we the conscious beings didn't create our cells are we really in a position to question our minds and our body as to how it interprets the environment around it?? Absolutely, not! However, through attention and observation science may learn the secrets of the mind and the body which is still a mystery and establish ways for us to be better conscious beings.

[Oleg Bach]

"The son of man" is a very interesting old term - It means that every human being decends from all those billions that precede him. Perhaps memory is cellular in the genetic sense and we in our subconscious hold the memory of the whole collective all in one..Computer chips are remarkable - but a sun flower seed is more complex and more of a miracle - every last hair on the plant - every last vein and pattern - every last colour - every last root fiber..every chemical is all pre-programed in that one tiny seed..now that is a miracle.

[whowhere]

"The son of man" is a very interesting old term - It means that every human being decends from all those billions that precede him. Perhaps memory is cellular in the genetic sense and we in our subconscious hold the memory of the whole collective all in one..Computer chips are remarkable - but a sun flower seed is more complex and more of a miracle - every last hair on the plant - every last vein and pattern - every last colour - every last root fiber..every chemical is all pre-programed in that one tiny seed..now that is a miracle.

What makes you separate from animals and plants you are able to express your thoughts in form (written, verbal, speach). You learned this form from society. Science has discovered the DNA sequence, same as genetics don't know. I would have to say the DNA sequence is the subconscious minds and the bodies Bios. Unfortunately not all humans have good DNA and healthy bodies, this is in part because some parents are crack addicts and they poisoned their offspring with toxic food until they are cast out to repeat the pattern of life. In this pattern, this poor wretched life has to rely on the good will of society. Sadly, society is not that good, this poor wretch will fall into the hands of God and he will become God's hand and live by.....

Ezekiel 25:17 (King James Version)

17And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.

People are scum and the abused need to be enabled to wipe out the scum of the earth until the abusers are blotted out of the book of life permanently. As they say kill them all, let God sort them out - The mantra of a soldier.

[Oleg Bach]

It is not just the genetic damaged cause by crack addiction - It is a breeding policy where people breed strickly for lust - or economic power - Male jerks meet female jerks and have kids that are predisposed to being jerks and social along with spiritual infidels - YOU seem to believe that only poor people are poorly bred - Look at George Bush and half of the banking families in Canada - they are just as inbred and are worthy of the same contempt and loathing that you seem to have for the crack heads..money does not buy good genetics - although I did notice that most super privledged and elite males no matter how srawny - manage to get hot chicks for wifes and breeding partners - But the trend to breed badly is now going up the food chain where artifial beauty is fooling the Donald Trumps of the world - Micheal Jackson got it right - he had artifical kids - by not just choosing the female but also choosing the male father of his children - it's called remote breeding - but that cost big bucks to buy designer kids...LOVE and breeding with a kind and angelic woman formally introduced by intelligent match makers is probably the way to go...now get to it! And never make love drunk or by the woman taking control by initiating oral contact - that's called seduction and nothing good results form it.

[jbg]

It is not just the genetic damaged cause by crack addiction...

Is that your particular life story?

[GostHacked]

Frequencies are vibrations. You can't ascribe sensory interpretation to the the subconscious on one hand in the case of dreams and recollection and not ascribe that your brain and your body may have other unknown ways to gather information for processing by the subconscious mind. Do we really know how we are able to do things? We only think about the things we can do only when we no longer can't so is the nature of life. Science and biology has assessed the body to be made up of trillions and trillions of cells. The cells are grouped and work as one towards their respective tasks. Each cell contributes to the whole of what you are able to do. Our cells are the vehicle we the conscious beings operate. Because we the conscious beings didn't create our cells are we really in a position to question our minds and our body as to how it interprets the environment around it?? Absolutely, not! However, through attention and observation science may learn the secrets of the mind and the body which is still a mystery and establish ways for us to be better conscious beings.

Sure but at this point it is all pure speculation on your part.

[whowhere]

Sure but at this point it is all pure speculation on your part.

Is it? Even the Suns light rays are fequencies which also could contain information which is interpreted and processed by all life on earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light

Light is electromagnetic radiation, particularly radiation of a wavelength that is visible to the human eye (about 400–700 nm, or perhaps 380–750 nm[1]). In physics, the term light sometimes refers to electromagnetic radiation of any wavelength, whether visible or not.[2][3]

Four primary properties of light are:

Intensity

Frequency or wavelength

Polarization

Phase

Light, which exists in tiny "packets" called photons, exhibits properties of both waves and particles. This property is referred to as the wave–particle duality. The study of light, known as optics, is an important research area in modern physics.

The consciosness of man is a byproduct of cellular activity. Means of Communication mediums has only scratched the surface.

[ToadBrother]

Where does the imagary of dreams come from? Your fixation on the so called 5 senses are man made constructs. They were labled as likely to direct attetion and focus to specifics. Carrier Frequencies and the information on them are not the same. Carrier Frequencies could be any time reference and not be measurable by current scientific instruments. If such frequencies exist the human brain could pick up these frequencies perhaps through the hair on your head or on your arms and legs. This information could then find its way back to the brain for processing. This could happen as cats use their whiskers to feel out their environment.

When someone has any evidence that any part of our cognitive machine are anything but in the brain itself, we'll talk. I mean, maybe ketchup and egg salad sandwiches make dreams.

[kimmy]

Leonardo DaVinci, you, meaning of a smile, Mona Lisa

Sender is considered a master technician of the medium; could be likened to a transmitter with a high signal-to-noise ratio. Restorative action of curators over the years could be likened to repeaters, maintaining integrity of original signal. Original signal is converted to digital form, transmitted to receivers location, and reconstructed in visual form with high level of accuracy.

Quantum mechanics analysis of optical portion of channel completely unnecessary; classical optics and conventional understanding of photochemical receptors in eye entirely adequate for this situation.

Physical layer of communications channel is extremely solid. Seems likely that image available to receiver is entirely as sender intended.

Failure of communication occurs at higher level. Receiver receives information with extremely high degree of accuracy, but unsure how to intepret the data. Result: unlikely that receiver has obtained message sender intended.

The fallacy here is Ad Tedium Ut Nex.

My only interest in this thread has been to dispute c-r's idea that our thoughts are directly connected to a great collective consciousness. If you find my focus on that topic to be tedious, then I don't know what you're hoping to get out of this conversation.

Whoosh!

That 'whooshing' sound you heard was the point going way over your head. Yes, the medium is the message. :lol

"Guh"

As always, you're quick to let people know they're not talking about what you want them to be talking about, but unwilling to actually say what you want to talk about.

No. Really? Is that what you have been going on about?

How many times have I said exactly that?

I gathered early on that you were hoping to steer the topic towards some sort of social concept of collective intelligence, and perhaps hoping that c-r's inane ramblings were actually some sort of metaphor for the ideas you'd like to introduce.

But it has become clear that c-r is speaking quite literally and that her notion of a collective intelligence isn't some kind of zeitgeist formed through media but rather literally that human thought exists outside the brain and combines with other thought through means which she believes can be made science by calling it "quantum reality". If you're hoping to piggyback your own interests into this thread on her horse, you're probably terribly frustrated by that.

So perhaps you should just present the ideas you'd like to talk about on your own. Unentangle (or quantum unentangle!) yourself from c-r's fruitopian fantasy and present your own ideas! We'll all be happier.

Then science is not for you since you have made it in your own image.

And yet you didn't actually dispute any of my analysis of the situation.

-k

[whowhere]

When someone has any evidence that any part of our cognitive machine are anything but in the brain itself, we'll talk. I mean, maybe ketchup and egg salad sandwiches make dreams.

What's wrong actual science as it really is, is not fitting into your narrow hypothesis of how life interacts with its environment? Real science does not have time for horse buggy minds and you will be cast aside as the simple mind you are. Life is the expansion of knowledge and not the limiting of it.

[whowhere]

Checkmate Toadbrother!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body

Black body

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

As the temperature decreases, the peak of the black-body radiation curve moves to lower intensities and longer wavelengths. The black-body radiation graph is also compared with the classical model of Rayleigh and Jeans.

The color (chromaticity) of black-body radiation depends on the temperature of the black body; the locus of such colors, shown here in CIE 1931 x,y space, is known as the Planckian locus.In physics, a black body is an idealized object that absorbs all electromagnetic radiation that falls on it. No electromagnetic radiation passes through it and none is reflected. Because no light (visible electromagnetic radiation) is reflected or transmitted, the object appears black when it is cold. However, a black body emits a temperature-dependent spectrum of light. This thermal radiation from a black body is termed black-body radiation.[nb 1]

At room temperature, black bodies emit mostly infrared wavelengths, but as the temperature increases past a few hundred degrees Celsius, black bodies start to emit visible wavelengths, appearing red, orange, yellow, white, and blue with increasing temperature. By the time an object is white, it is emitting substantial ultraviolet radiation.

The term "black body" was introduced by Gustav Kirchhoff in 1860.

Black-body emission gives insight into the thermal equilibrium state of a continuous field. In classical physics, each different Fourier mode in thermal equilibrium should have the same energy. This approach lead to the paradox known as the ultraviolet catastrophe, that there would be an infinite amount of energy in any continuous field. Black bodies could test the properties of thermal equilibrium because they emit radiation which is distributed thermally. Studying the laws of the black body historically led to quantum mechanics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body

And this Toadbrother...

Temperature of Earth

If we substitute in the measured values for the Sun and Earth:

[19]

[19]

[19]

[18]

If we set the average emissivity to unity, we calculate the "effective temperature" of the Earth to be:

TE = 254.356 K or -18.8 C.

This is the temperature that the Earth would be at if it radiated as a perfect black body in the infrared, ignoring greenhouse effects, and assuming an unchanging albedo. The Earth in fact radiates almost as a perfect black body in the infrared which will raise the estimated temperature a few degrees above the effective temperature. If we wish to estimate what the temperature of the Earth would be if it had no atmosphere, then we could take the albedo and emissivity of the moon as a good estimate. The albedo and emissivity of the moon are about 0.1054[20] and 0.95[21] respectively, yielding an estimated temperature of about 1.36 C.

Estimates of the Earth's average albedo vary in the range 0.3–0.4, resulting in different estimated effective temperatures. Estimates are often based on the solar constant (total insolation power density) rather than the temperature, size, and distance of the sun. For example, using 0.4 for albedo, and an insolation of 1400 W m−2), one obtains an effective temperature of about 245 K.[22] Similarly using albedo 0.3 and solar constant of 1372 W m−2), one obtains an effective temperature of 255 K.[23][24]

I would educate you on the dynamics of Infrared used as a way of sending information but I will leave that for you to think about everytime you change the channel of your television.

All Rational Enough for you????