Our European Heritage

[M.Dancer]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/05/04/...990_468x550.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/art...-years-ago.html

Dressed in a suit, this person would not look out of place in a busy street in a modern city.

The clay sculpture, however, portrays the face of the earliest known modern European - a man or woman who hunted deer and gathered fruit and herbs in ancient forests more than 35,000 years ago.

It was created by Richard Neave, one

If you know your history

Then you would know where you coming from,

Then you wouldn't have to ask me,

Who the eck do I think I am.

[DogOnPorch]

This fits with Mitochondrial Eve (as far as jig-saw-puzzles go). Europe during the last Ice Age was literally off-limits...when the ice melted, you gotta figure there was a surge north over the next generations.

[DogOnPorch]

This just in from Germany...

http://www.kansascity.com/451/story/1195101.html

Estimated 35,000 to 40,000 years old.

[Wild Bill]

If you know your history

Then you would know where you coming from,

Then you wouldn't have to ask me,

Who the eck do I think I am.

"I don't know where I'm comin' from,

But I just met a girl name of

Dynamo Hum!"

---Frank Zappa

[charter.rights]

This just in from Germany...

http://www.kansascity.com/451/story/1195101.html

Estimated 35,000 to 40,000 years old.

Interesting.

But it is still more than 10,000 years after the earliest known occupation of the Americas.....

Edited May 17, 2009 by charter.rights

[charter.rights]

And maybe as much as 210,000 after the earliest occupation of the Americas.....

250 000 Year Old Mastodon Hunter From Puebla, Mexico

[DogOnPorch]

I don't think the Hueyatlaco site is supported by peer review. It's also a fairly old find and apparently there was also some problems with the methods used during the excavation and dating. A similar site involving apparent 40,000 year old footprints is also under challenge.

Sites like this would pre-date Clovis Culture which it set around 18-12,000 years...by a lot in Hueyatlaco's case. No other hominids have ever been found in North America (Neanderthal, Homo habilis, et al) which tends to support humans arriving all-of-a-sudden rather than evolving seperately. New research could always change this.

[charter.rights]

I don't think the Hueyatlaco site is supported by peer review. It's also a fairly old find and apparently there was also some problems with the methods used during the excavation and dating. A similar site involving apparent 40,000 year old footprints is also under challenge.

Sites like this would pre-date Clovis Culture which it set around 18-12,000 years...by a lot in Hueyatlaco's case. No other hominids have ever been found in North America (Neanderthal, Homo habilis, et al) which tends to support humans arriving all-of-a-sudden rather than evolving seperately. New research could always change this.

However, it would certainly put a spin on the "out of africa" theory now wouldn't it......

As well, I recently read that in 2007 the carbon dating of volcanic ash above the artifacts was confirmed to be between 200,000 and 250,000 years old. There is still some disagreement over the site, but this recent find certainly tips the scale in favour of the pre-200,000 year existence.

[DogOnPorch]

However, it would certainly put a spin on the "out of africa" theory now wouldn't it......

As well, I recently read that in 2007 the carbon dating of volcanic ash above the artifacts was confirmed to be between 200,000 and 250,000 years old. There is still some disagreement over the site, but this recent find certainly tips the scale in favour of the pre-200,000 year existence.

I wouldn't say 'tipped the scales' by any means as neither have passed any sort of critical peer review. I appreciate that you have political motives behind what you say, but in the scientific community, it doesn't cut the mustard.

[charter.rights]

I wouldn't say 'tipped the scales' by any means as neither have passed any sort of critical peer review. I appreciate that you have political motives behind what you say, but in the scientific community, it doesn't cut the mustard.

In science first the questions come, then the proof.

For a long time scientists relied upon the Bering Strait theory - that all American inhabitants originated via Asia no later than 13,000 years ago. When the first of many archeological sites were discovered that predated that theory time line the dogmatists still attempted to make the Bering Strait plausible, looking no further. That was not science. It was all political. Their concern was if this land was occupied by immigrants like the imperial invaders, then the land and its resources were all up for grab.

However, as archeologists restarted their search about 20 years ago after discovering a number of sites that blow Bering Strait out of the water, the reality began to emerge that the Americas were occupied before Europe and now even Asia. This may very well put the occupation of the Americas as a very early migration out of Africa, or support a not widelt held theory that humans simultaneously evolved in the Americas at the same time as Africa.

The main point is that even in 1962 when the Puebla site was first excavated, the idea that artifacts could exist were thought preposterous because the Bering Strait Theory was widely held. So were the first potential 20,000 year artifacts and so on until archeologist began questioning the Bering Strait and discounting it as implausible. The reopening of the Puebla site and the use of modern radio carbon techniques will put another face on this. While there are still lots of questions, and lots of different science to be further examined, for the scientific community, this is what archeology is all about. It isn't political, but has been used that way by dogmatists who refuse to acknowledge that this land was inhabited for 10s of thousands of years, or more by its original peoples.

[Oleg Bach]

Human beings in their present form have existed for millions of years. Most do not believe this because proof of this has degraded to powder over time and blown away.. Tribes have traveled all over the planet - prime example is Scotland - Christs uncle visited there - we forget - if you walk for a year or two you can go just about anywhere - or if you go to sea - with provisions the wind will take you from south america to africa and back again...For instance - a human being can circle the planet on foot at least twice per life time if desired.

[DogOnPorch]

In science first the questions come, then the proof.

For a long time scientists relied upon the Bering Strait theory - that all American inhabitants originated via Asia no later than 13,000 years ago. When the first of many archeological sites were discovered that predated that theory time line the dogmatists still attempted to make the Bering Strait plausible, looking no further. That was not science. It was all political. Their concern was if this land was occupied by immigrants like the imperial invaders, then the land and its resources were all up for grab.

However, as archeologists restarted their search about 20 years ago after discovering a number of sites that blow Bering Strait out of the water, the reality began to emerge that the Americas were occupied before Europe and now even Asia. This may very well put the occupation of the Americas as a very early migration out of Africa, or support a not widelt held theory that humans simultaneously evolved in the Americas at the same time as Africa.

The main point is that even in 1962 when the Puebla site was first excavated, the idea that artifacts could exist were thought preposterous because the Bering Strait Theory was widely held. So were the first potential 20,000 year artifacts and so on until archeologist began questioning the Bering Strait and discounting it as implausible. The reopening of the Puebla site and the use of modern radio carbon techniques will put another face on this. While there are still lots of questions, and lots of different science to be further examined, for the scientific community, this is what archeology is all about. It isn't political, but has been used that way by dogmatists who refuse to acknowledge that this land was inhabited for 10s of thousands of years, or more by its original peoples.

No point discussing science with you at a political level. If you want to believe in fairy tales like Indians coming about seperately from the rest of humanity...by all means. Remember that if you ever need a blood transfusion.

Oleg...you're right out to lunch, my friend.

Edited May 19, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[wyly]

Human beings in their present form have existed for millions of years. Most do not believe this because proof of this has degraded to powder over time and blown away..

millions of years???? where did you dig up this gem of knowledge....

[wyly]

However, it would certainly put a spin on the "out of africa" theory now wouldn't it......

As well, I recently read that in 2007 the carbon dating of volcanic ash above the artifacts was confirmed to be between 200,000 and 250,000 years old. There is still some disagreement over the site, but this recent find certainly tips the scale in favour of the pre-200,000 year existence.

I asked my daughter the archeology major to look at the link, she rolled her eyes and walked away...

[charter.rights]

I asked my daughter the archeology major to look at the link, she rolled her eyes and walked away...

I guess she still needs more of an education.....

[wyly]

I guess she still needs more of an education.....

ya I guess she'll have to read all those Alien Abduction, Faked Lunar Landing, 2nd Sniper on the Grassy Knoll conspiracy tabloids you got your education from...

Virginia Steen-McIntyre is not an archeologist, two homonid skulls she claims may have found on site do not exist(how convenient)...any web reference you find on Hueyatlaco consist of para-psychology and conspiracy sites

Zea mays maize Steen-McIntyre claims was found in 250,000BP deposists never existed until 10,000BP....possible dates of volcanic sediment range from 18,000 to 1,000,000BP....

Hueyatlaco isn't serious science it's irresponsible science, an area prone to floods in the past that can destroy any stratigraphy and it's usefulness as a dating tool..but the story sells a lot of books to conspiracy nuts...

Edited May 20, 2009 by wyly

[charter.rights]

ya I guess she'll have to read all those Alien Abduction, Faked Lunar Landing, 2nd Sniper on the Grassy Knoll conspiracy tabloids you got your education from...

Virginia Steen-McIntyre is not an archeologist, two homonid skulls she claims may have found on site do not exist(how convenient)...any web reference you find on Hueyatlaco consist of para-psychology and conspiracy sites

Zea mays maize Steen-McIntyre claims was found in 250,000BP deposists never existed until 10,000BP....possible dates of volcanic sediment range from 18,000 to 1,000,000BP....

Hueyatlaco isn't serious science it's irresponsible science, an area prone to floods in the past that can destroy any stratigraphy and it's usefulness as a dating tool..but the story sells a lot of books to conspiracy nuts...

Its a scientific theory no less valid than the Bering Strait was (now mostly disproven) 20 years ago. It may not pan out, for sure but that does not stop archeologists from looking.

[charter.rights]

No point discussing science with you at a political level. If you want to believe in fairy tales like Indians coming about seperately from the rest of humanity...by all means. Remember that if you ever need a blood transfusion.

Of course you brought the politics by this:

"I appreciate that you have political motives behind what you say, but in the scientific community, it doesn't cut the mustard."

That is not a scientific statement, nor is it based on science principles. Rather it is a political statement used as a means to dismiss a scientific theory without due consideration.

If you were speaking from a scientific point of view would have acknowledged that it is one theory being followed up. Having not being "peer reviewed" has nothing to do with science since, not all experiments, theories or postulations are substantiated. However, that does not remove them as legitimate scientific pursuits.

Edited May 20, 2009 by charter.rights

[Wild Bill]

ya I guess she'll have to read all those Alien Abduction, Faked Lunar Landing, 2nd Sniper on the Grassy Knoll conspiracy tabloids you got your education from...

Virginia Steen-McIntyre is not an archeologist, two homonid skulls she claims may have found on site do not exist(how convenient)...any web reference you find on Hueyatlaco consist of para-psychology and conspiracy sites

Zea mays maize Steen-McIntyre claims was found in 250,000BP deposists never existed until 10,000BP....possible dates of volcanic sediment range from 18,000 to 1,000,000BP....

Hueyatlaco isn't serious science it's irresponsible science, an area prone to floods in the past that can destroy any stratigraphy and it's usefulness as a dating tool..but the story sells a lot of books to conspiracy nuts...

There seems to be some "digital" thinking in this thread. Some folks believe that man is recent to North America. Others believe that he may have arrived here several hundred thousand years ago.

It's a big continent. That's a big time frame. I would think it more likely that man could have come here several times! His settlements may have thrived or died out for various lengths of times.

To insist on only one arrival hardly seems scientific to me.

[DogOnPorch]

There seems to be some "digital" thinking in this thread. Some folks believe that man is recent to North America. Others believe that he may have arrived here several hundred thousand years ago.

It's a big continent. That's a big time frame. I would think it more likely that man could have come here several times! His settlements may have thrived or died out for various lengths of times.

To insist on only one arrival hardly seems scientific to me.

It's not like anthropologists and archaeologists (et al) didn't consider the factors. There could have been numerous attempts over time. But science points to only one wave being successful.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/...90428223836.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/...71126170543.htm

The Bering Strait Land Bridge has NOT been 'mostly disproven'. It's still hypothesis #1 with much physical evidence backing it up. Peer review is an essential part of the scientific process. If your ideas can't stand up to basic peer review, there's something either very wrong with the idea or you're right while everyone else is wrong. Not very likely.

[wyly]

There seems to be some "digital" thinking in this thread. Some folks believe that man is recent to North America. Others believe that he may have arrived here several hundred thousand years ago.

It's a big continent. That's a big time frame. I would think it more likely that man could have come here several times! His settlements may have thrived or died out for various lengths of times.

To insist on only one arrival hardly seems scientific to me.

I have no issues with that neither do archeologists indeed it is quite widely believed among archeologist there were several waves of migration...the issues come with sloppy science making irresponsible claims without the proper evidence...there is some evidence to suggest that there was a South Pacific as well as a North Atlantic migrations as well but no responsible archeologist is making definitive claims to those as yet...

[wyly]

The Bering Strait Land Bridge has NOT been 'mostly disproven'. It's still hypothesis #1 with much physical evidence backing it up. Peer review is an essential part of the scientific process. If your ideas can't stand up to basic peer review, there's something either very wrong with the idea or you're right while everyone else is wrong. Not very likely.

Bering Strait is very much a given now but the traditional land bridge scenario may have to share a plausible sea link version...DNA samples from Natives of the America's suggest at least two waves but there could easily be 3, 4, or 5 finding the evidence is difficult and as you say it must withstand peer review...

what many people do not understand about the peer review process is that it's not meant to shut people up about their findings it's meant to verify them...if the findings can't stand up to peer scrutiny then you need to find more evidence. The Hypothesis could be correct but without supporting evidence it will always remain just a hypothesis and never advance to Theory...

Edited May 21, 2009 by wyly

[DogOnPorch]

Bering Strait is very much a given now but the traditional land bridge scenario may have to share a plausible sea link version...DNA samples from Natives of the America's suggest at least two waves but their could easily be 3, 4, or 5 finding the evidence is difficult and as you say it must withstand peer review...

what many people do not understand about the peer review process is that it's not meant to shut people up about their findings it's meant to verify them...if the findings can't stand up to peer scrutiny then you need to find more evidence. The Hypothesis could be correct but without supporting evidence it will always remain an hypothesis and never advance to Theory...

Agreement.

One documentary I saw on human-kind's move out of Africa put forward that a certain minimum population (greater diversity) would be needed for an isolated group to last beyond a few generations before interbreeding had extreme negative effects. If true as suspected, this would remove individual successes who made it to NA alone via 'crazy' methods...rowing, sailing, skiing over the Pole, etc.

Edited May 22, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[wyly]

Agreement.

One documentary I saw on human-kind's move out of Africa put forward that a certain minimum population (greater diversity) would be needed for an isolated group to last beyond a few generations before interbreeding had extreme negative effects. If true as suspected, this would remove individual successes who made it to NA alone via 'crazy' methods...rowing, sailing, skiing over the Pole, etc.

very good point, if any of the crazy methods were used archeologists would need to rethink technological ability of past migrants...they may have been much better than previously believed and routinely made very difficult journeys...which is well possible if you look at the Inuit, Aleut and Polynesian cultures ability to handle extreme conditions and distances with very low tech means...the problem is finding bio degradable evidence that is many thousands of years old...

[Guest TrueMetis]

Oldest human population I've ever read about in North America was 40-50 thousand years old, They weren't able to find any skeletons just a few settlements so we can't know for sure whether or not they survived.