jbg Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 (edited) Surely, a former Hah-vahd professor can do better than this (link to title of book by Michael Ignatieff): “Most of us are quietly but intensely patriotic. Our nationalism exemplifies the paradox that feeling for a country increases with the difficulty of imagining it as a country at all.” Someone who wants to be the PM of a country, surely, can find a more compelling way to describe his love of country, its people and its places. I can think of plenty of "Canadians" ranging from Separatist Quebecois to multicultural types like Khadr who similarly have "difficulty of imagining it (Canada) as a country at all". Maybe that is the limit of his devotion to a country that he has been absent from more often than not as an adult. It's a great country. He should familiarize himself with it. Edited May 10, 2009 by jbg Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Borg Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 Surely, a former Hah-vahd professor can do better than this (link to title of book by Michael Ignatieff):Someone who wants to be the PM of a country, surely, can find a more compelling way to describe his love of country, its people and its places. I can think of plenty of "Canadians" ranging from Separatist Quebecois to multicultural types like Khadr who similarly have "difficulty of imagining it (Canada) as a country at all". Maybe that is the limit of his devotion to a country that he has been absent from more often than not as an adult. It's a great country. He should familiarize himself with it. Perhaps he should have converted the old American saying into a canadian saying. "Canada - love it or get the hell out" Hmmm ..... he might have offended someone - so that just would not do. In fact I would have respected him more if he had done that. Borg Quote
Smallc Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 Have you read the book? I've read most of it. Taking one line out of context certainly doesn't do it justice. Quote
jbg Posted May 10, 2009 Author Report Posted May 10, 2009 Hmmm ..... he might have offended someone - so that just would not do.In fact I would have respected him more if he had done that. Borg It's hard to respect a party or person(s) who have no firm convictions. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Machjo Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 Perhaps he should have converted the old American saying into a canadian saying."Canada - love it or get the hell out" Hmmm ..... he might have offended someone - so that just would not do. In fact I would have respected him more if he had done that. Borg You clearly don't understand the complexity of Canada, and the psychological impact of the culture barrier. When I was in Robervalle, few could function in English. In fact, only the local English teachers and a few workers at the local casino, the tourist hub, could. As for the rest, they were as monolingual as it gets. How are they supposed to feel any sense of commonality with a people who are total strangers to them? When they watch TV, they more often than not see their anglophone compatriots speaking with their lips out of sinc with their voice, since they're all dubbed. Even politicians, their supposed national leaders. How are we to expect them to identify fuly with representatives who are dubbed like foreigners to them on TV? We don't even watch the same TV chanels or read the same newspapers or visit the same websites. We are total strangers to each other unless we can communicate with each other. That's just the reality of Canada today. Add to that that the cultural icons of French Canada haven't kept up with the times either. The French lyrics to the national anthem are: O Canada! Land of our forefathers Thy brow is wreathed with a glorious garland of flowers. As is thy arm ready to wield the sword, So also is it ready to carry the cross. Thy history is an epic of the most brilliant exploits. Thy valour steeped in faith Will protect our homes and our rights Will protect our homes and our rights. That cross can also be understood as a crucifix. Most Quebecers aren't Christian anymore, making the national anthem itself feel out of place. And anyone aware of its history with the St. Jean Baptiste Society, the whole anthem is steeped in Catholic symbols. The English version of the anthem doesn't even correspond: O Canada! Our home and native land! True patriot love in all thy sons command. With glowing hearts we see thee rise, The True North strong and free! From far and wide, O Canada, We stand on guard for thee. God keep our land glorious and free! O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. Then add to that that 8% in Nunavut can speak neither English nor French. And they even have their own unofficial version of the anthem: Uu Kanata! Nangmini nunavut! Piqujatii nalattiaqpavut. Angiglivalliajuti, Sanngijulutillu. Nangiqpugu, Uu Kanata Mianiripluti. Uu Kanata! nunatsia! Nangiqpugu mianiripluti, Uu Kanata, salagijauquna So, is that based on the English version, the French version, or is it yet a third version? Meanwhile, at least some First Nations see themselves as just an occupied people (I've met a few like that. Whether a majority or small minority, I don't know, but the simple fact that they exist isdeserving of our consideration). Quebecers say that their history begins with the French Colonization of North America, and that they are a people defeated on the Plains of Abraham, desirous of regaining their honour on an equal footing with the rest of Canada. English Canadians consider both the First Nations and Quebecers as cry babies who simply refuse to accept that they won. I'm not saying that it would not be possible to fuly unite Canada. But if you believe that it is united now, you're in for a rude awakening. For a country to survive, it needs a common culture, which implies a common language, 'religion' (not necessarily a revealed religion, but some kind of common belief, be it in the Constitution, or anything, but definitely some kind of common civic 'religion'), etc. Of course it could be a common second culture, but a common culture it needs to be either way. Without it, Canada can only drift ever farther apart. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
Borg Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 You clearly don't understand the complexity of Canada, and the psychological impact of the culture barrier. When I was in Robervalle, few could function in English. In fact, only the local English teachers and a few workers at the local casino, the tourist hub, could. As for the rest, they were as monolingual as it gets. How are they supposed to feel any sense of commonality with a people who are total strangers to them? When they watch TV, they more often than not see their anglophone compatriots speaking with their lips out of sinc with their voice, since they're all dubbed. Even politicians, their supposed national leaders. How are we to expect them to identify fuly with representatives who are dubbed like foreigners to them on TV?We don't even watch the same TV chanels or read the same newspapers or visit the same websites. We are total strangers to each other unless we can communicate with each other. That's just the reality of Canada today. Add to that that the cultural icons of French Canada haven't kept up with the times either. The French lyrics to the national anthem are: O Canada! Land of our forefathers Thy brow is wreathed with a glorious garland of flowers. As is thy arm ready to wield the sword, So also is it ready to carry the cross. Thy history is an epic of the most brilliant exploits. Thy valour steeped in faith Will protect our homes and our rights Will protect our homes and our rights. That cross can also be understood as a crucifix. Most Quebecers aren't Christian anymore, making the national anthem itself feel out of place. And anyone aware of its history with the St. Jean Baptiste Society, the whole anthem is steeped in Catholic symbols. The English version of the anthem doesn't even correspond: O Canada! Our home and native land! True patriot love in all thy sons command. With glowing hearts we see thee rise, The True North strong and free! From far and wide, O Canada, We stand on guard for thee. God keep our land glorious and free! O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. Then add to that that 8% in Nunavut can speak neither English nor French. And they even have their own unofficial version of the anthem: Uu Kanata! Nangmini nunavut! Piqujatii nalattiaqpavut. Angiglivalliajuti, Sanngijulutillu. Nangiqpugu, Uu Kanata Mianiripluti. Uu Kanata! nunatsia! Nangiqpugu mianiripluti, Uu Kanata, salagijauquna So, is that based on the English version, the French version, or is it yet a third version? Meanwhile, at least some First Nations see themselves as just an occupied people (I've met a few like that. Whether a majority or small minority, I don't know, but the simple fact that they exist isdeserving of our consideration). Quebecers say that their history begins with the French Colonization of North America, and that they are a people defeated on the Plains of Abraham, desirous of regaining their honour on an equal footing with the rest of Canada. English Canadians consider both the First Nations and Quebecers as cry babies who simply refuse to accept that they won. I'm not saying that it would not be possible to fuly unite Canada. But if you believe that it is united now, you're in for a rude awakening. For a country to survive, it needs a common culture, which implies a common language, 'religion' (not necessarily a revealed religion, but some kind of common belief, be it in the Constitution, or anything, but definitely some kind of common civic 'religion'), etc. Of course it could be a common second culture, but a common culture it needs to be either way. Without it, Canada can only drift ever farther apart. What I do clearly understand is that everyone is more than ready to make an excuse - as you have just done. I am not prepared to open the cheque book so my tax dollars can placate every special interest group - not interested in excuses - suck it up folks - the past is past and we cannot change it. Move along folks - time to get over it. My family did - so can yours. Borg Quote
Keepitsimple Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 Have you read the book? I've read most of it. Taking one line out of context certainly doesn't do it justice. It seems that many people have taken many lines out of context. When people struggle for context, it usually means that the author is struggling......or is it just that regular Canadians are just not smart enough to absorb Mr. Ignatieff's worldy reflections? Quote Back to Basics
jbg Posted May 10, 2009 Author Report Posted May 10, 2009 What I do clearly understand is that everyone is more than ready to make an excuse - as you have just done.I am not prepared to open the cheque book so my tax dollars can placate every special interest group - not interested in excuses - suck it up folks - the past is past and we cannot change it. Move along folks - time to get over it. My family did - so can yours. Exactly.When someone decides to come to the U.S. or Canada or any "New World" country, the presumption must be that they came to start a new life, and not import the hatreds and idiosyncracies of the old country here. The immigrants should learn English, Canadian or French, depending on where they move to, and absorb themselves in the new country. As to the "Roberval" story if the Quebeckers are asking the rest of Canada to become functionally bi-lingual, at least as to signage, education and government services, so should Quebec be. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
CANADIEN Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 YFor a country to survive, it needs a common culture, which implies a common language, (...) Even heard of Switzerland? Unless of course you consider love of money to be a language? :lol: Quote
Molly Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 Whoa! JBG, I LIKE that quotation, find a lot of truth in it, and an apt description of the Canadian reality. So it doesn't satisfy your Yankee sensibilities, and overwrought definitions of patriotism? Can't believe that anyone would reject 'the American way', and find their own? Well tough noogies, and get stuffed on your way to customs. Don't forget your passport... or better yet, DO forget your passport. Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
Borg Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 Exactly.When someone decides to come to the U.S. or Canada or any "New World" country, the presumption must be that they came to start a new life, and not import the hatreds and idiosyncracies of the old country here. The immigrants should learn English, Canadian or French, depending on where they move to, and absorb themselves in the new country. As to the "Roberval" story if the Quebeckers are asking the rest of Canada to become functionally bi-lingual, at least as to signage, education and government services, so should Quebec be. I have always stated the kebec language police create a serious division - the kebec politician wants that division - the common day franco loves it as well - the laws are discriminatory and beloved - never get away with that in any other province. It is a one way street inide the kebec borders and a two way street is demanded out side the kebec borders. Immigration is only good for canada if it it builds us up - more and more it seems to tear us down. Perhaps we are inviting the wrong people. Borg Quote
CANADIEN Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 W the past is past and we cannot change it. As the saying goes, those who ignore the past are condemned to live it again. But it does not seem to me like you are ignoring it, but rather carcing for a return to it. Move along folks - time to get over it We are not going back to the time of forced assimilation. Get over it. Quote
CANADIEN Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 As to the "Roberval" story if the Quebeckers are asking the rest of Canada to become functionally bi-lingual, at least as to signage, education and government services, so should Quebec be. Toronto has a by-law stating that it is a right to be serviced in English in taxi-cabs. Various municipalities in BC and Ontario have enacted, or attempted to enact, by-laws amndating English on business signs. Stay on this site long enough, and you will get people arguing that private business such as banks should be prohibited from offering their services in Mandarin. To get English language education in Quebec, one must be from a family where one member has been educated in English somewhere else in Canada. To get a french language education elsewhere in Canada, one must be from a family where one member has been educated in French, period. Not that different when you look at me (but you know me, people should be able to choose one or the other, period). Federal government services are available in English in the City of Saguenay, of which Roberval is part. Not necessarily in all ofice, same as French in let's say Saskatoon. I would say that the situation of provincial services in the minority language is better in New Brunswick than in Quebec. With Ontario and Manitoba, it is better in some aspects, worse in others. As for the other provinces... Quebec provide more access to services in English than most of them do with French (mind you, I hold Quebec to a higher standard in that regard). Quote
Argus Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 We are not going back to the time of forced assimilation. Get over it. It's funny you'd write this in the same post as talking about ignoring the past. Assimilation is not "forced" in most cases. It's a natural phenomenon. It's why there are English speakers at all, instead of a bunch of people speaking the various tribal languages, ie saxon, welsh, gaelic, which were the native languages in England's past. Given no deliberate efforts in either direction, a minority population will assimilate into the majority over time, especially with regard to language. Religion is about all that stands in the way of that assimilation. And since most Francophones have stopped having children because it's too much of a drag on their lifestyle enjoyment to raise them, the percentage of French speakers in Canada goes down every year. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Borg Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 (edited) As the saying goes, those who ignore the past are condemned to live it again.But it does not seem to me like you are ignoring it, but rather carcing for a return to it. We are not going back to the time of forced assimilation. Get over it. Nothing more than platitudes - for the laws of today would not allow the return to the days of old. However the past cannot be changed - time for those who believed they were persecuted to suck it up and move on. Just like your ancestors in kebec - but they are unable to do so. And by remaining this way they continue to create and perpetuate the animosity. My family did get over it and got quite wealthy by "geting over it" and taking it to the financial side. Living well is, after all, the best revenge. Fortunately your people are slowly being forced into the real world - it will be better for you in the long run. After all you speak English now - so you are slowly joining the main stream despite doing it kicking and screaming. It will happen in kebec as well. 50 more years and it will be the main stream language - I might even be around to see it. Unless of course they leave - which is a better solution. Saves the costs of bi-lang in Canada and even manufacturing will get a bit cheaper. No bi-lang labels and instructions. Gotta' run - Air Canada is not gong to wait for me and I want to head west across the pond - been away too long. One final note - It is YOU who cannot get over the past - your writing shows it very well - Argus hass picked up on it as well - time to look in the mirror and ask if you are as golden as you might believe. I think not. We see it and you either do not or you ignore it. Cheers Borg Edited May 10, 2009 by Borg Quote
Smallc Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 It seems that many people have taken many lines out of context. When people struggle for context, it usually means that the author is struggling. How could anyone know that the author is struggling without reading the entire context of the statement? It doesn't matter anyway, because Molly is right. This isn't the United States and the line (and others in the book, which I will find shortly) are good descriptions of Canada. Quote
CANADIEN Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 It's funny you'd write this in the same post as talking about ignoring the past. What is funny is what you write. The quasi-extinction of the Irish gaelic language, or welsh, or First Nation's languages, to name those examples, is to a large extent due to policies that actively discouraged or punished the use of those languages, that imposed English only education. Call it whatever you want, that is a forced component of assimilation. And since most Francophones have stopped having children because it's too much of a drag on their lifestyle enjoyment to raise them, the percentage of French speakers in Canada goes down every year. Does not mean that there is more assimilation. Quote
jbg Posted May 10, 2009 Author Report Posted May 10, 2009 Whoa! JBG, I LIKE that quotation, find a lot of truth in it, and an apt description of the Canadian reality. So it doesn't satisfy your Yankee sensibilities, and overwrought definitions of patriotism? Can't believe that anyone would reject 'the American way', and find their own? Well tough noogies, and get stuffed on your way to customs. Don't forget your passport... or better yet, DO forget your passport. I have a lot of respect for Canada. The Canada that helped assure that the world wouldn't be speaking German, Japanese and/or Russian. Freedom isn't free. Your country has a part to play in keeping the free world free. Never forget it. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted May 10, 2009 Author Report Posted May 10, 2009 I would say that the situation of provincial services in the minority language is better in New Brunswick than in Quebec. With Ontario and Manitoba, it is better in some aspects, worse in others. As for the other provinces... Quebec provide more access to services in English than most of them do with French (mind you, I hold Quebec to a higher standard in that regard).Given the huge English-speaking populations in Montreal, Gatineau and their suburbs, there is and must be a higher standard. It is harder to provide ample services in the Boniface riding of Winnipeg than in a large chunk of Montreal. Yet Boniface has bilingual street and business signage, Montreal, from what I remember from being there in March 2005 does not. I found my attempts, as a tourist, to be serviced in English were met with, at best, sneers and at worst, in a near-arrest when looking for a bathroom near the Convention Center (turned out to be where the Goemry hearings were being held). Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Smallc Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 Yet Boniface has bilingual street and business signage, Montreal, from what I remember from being there in March 2005 does not. that's because Quebec has an official language of French. Manitoba has none and if it did, I think it's one of the provinces that would need to have both French and English as official. Quote
CANADIEN Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 Nothing more than platitudes - for the laws of today would not allow the return to the days of old. Unless of course they leave - which is a better solution. Saves the costs of bi-lang in Canada and even manufacturing will get a bit cheaper. No bi-lang labels and instructions. Like in the "good old says, right" Thank you for making my point for me. However the past cannot be changed - time for those who believed they were persecuted to suck it up and move on. News to you. I most certainly consider myself persecuted in 2009. And I am most certainly glad that Canada has moved on towards equality of rights. Don't be confused just because I see your c*ap for what it is. Just like your ancestors in kebec - but they are unable to do so. And by remaining this way they continue to create and perpetuate the animosity. You mean by speaking French, right? Fortunately your people are slowly being forced into the real world - it will be better for you in the long run. Thank you for reminding me that I don't know what's better for me. After all you speak English now(...) while keeping French. The best of two worlds. And I for one choose when and how I use these two wonderful languages.50 more years and it will be the main stream language. Two news to you. A - English IS the maintream language. Nothing to do with people having the right to use, and using, French. B - In 50 years from now, French will still be spoken in this country. Especially in Quebec. No bi-lang labels and instructions. Oh surprise, those whose language insecurities brings them to cringe whenever they see something in another language don't all speak french. It is YOU who cannot get over the past :lol: Quote
CANADIEN Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 I found my attempts, as a tourist, to be serviced in English were met with, at best, sneers and at worst, in a near-arrest when looking for a bathroom near the Convention Center (turned out to be where the Goemry hearings were being held). And I have had people telling me how frustrating it was for them to get a reply in English every time they were trying to practice theirFrench. Quote
Molly Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 Freedom isn't free. Your country has a part to play in keeping the free world free. Never forget it. You are just grimly determined to be 'the ugly American' today, aren't you? Tell me more about Canadian obligations to world freedom later, maybe after your own nation comes up with a coherent defininition of the word 'torture'. Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
ironstone Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 As the saying goes, those who ignore the past are condemned to live it again.But it does not seem to me like you are ignoring it, but rather carcing for a return to it. We are not going back to the time of forced assimilation. Get over it. And yet the province of Quebec makes the most effort to assimilate newcomers to be french to the point of cherry picking those that will be assimilated most easily.They have their cake and are gorging themselves.You see any hypocrisy here? If english Canada did the same thing with immigrants,namely taking more from english speaking countries,the powerful immigration lobby would be up in arms. Quote "Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it." Thomas Sowell
CANADIEN Posted May 10, 2009 Report Posted May 10, 2009 And yet the province of Quebec makes the most effort to assimilate newcomers to be french to the point of cherry picking those that will be assimilated most easily.They have their cake and are gorging themselves.You see any hypocrisy here?If english Canada did the same thing with immigrants,namely taking more from english speaking countries,the powerful immigration lobby would be up in arms. The immigration point system gives an advantage to immigrants with knowledge of either English or french. If any of the ten provinces and three territories wants to target people able to function in English from the moment they arrive, good for them.. I have absolutely no problem with that. And that's integration, not sassimilation. Quote
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