Eight Billion Per Year

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I believe that 2009 will bring some equalization money to Ontario. It seems like the west will be supporting the east for a while. If there was ever any hope of dumping this tax grab, it would have had to happen before Ontario got to the trough.

[Smallc]

It seems like the west will be supporting the east for a while.

No, Ontario will still be contributing a net amount of over $20B to other provinces despite the fact that they will receive $357M in Equalization. Equalization doesn't work the way that most people think. Also, Equalization is a constitutionally mandated program that we as Canadians should be thankful for. It allows all of us to enjoy the same services in all parts of the country...after all, we're all Canadians no matter which province we live in.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Smallc

[Borg]

Gosh!Quebec get's 8 billion dollars a year in equalization payments?And aren't they the same province that want's independance?Hmmm,they want to go it alone but they can't seem to pay their own way while they live within Canada.

Money talks my friend - and bullshit walks.

Never fear.

They will stay for the cash.

Borg

[Borg]

...after all, we're all Canadians no matter which province we live in.

It is just that some are more equal than others.

Borg

[Smallc]

It is just that some are more equal than others.

Not as far as equalization is concerned.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

No, Ontario will still be contributing a net amount of over $20B to other provinces despite the fact that they will receive $357M in Equalization. Equalization doesn't work the way that most people think. Also, Equalization is a constitutionally mandated program that we as Canadians should be thankful for. It allows all of us to enjoy the same services in all parts of the country...after all, we're all Canadians no matter which province we live in.

The provinces don't "pay into" equalization. That is a myth! The citizens and business taxes from each province constitute the federal revenue stream, from that all things flow. Strangely the "provinces" get a kickback from the feds of OUR tax dollars to squander in their usual manner. The point I was trying to make was that Ontario will be a have not province for this year and as such will be getting some equalization money.

[August1991]

The provinces don't "pay into" equalization. That is a myth! The citizens and business taxes from each province constitute the federal revenue stream, from that all things flow. Strangely the "provinces" get a kickback from the feds of OUR tax dollars to squander in their usual manner. The point I was trying to make was that Ontario will be a have not province for this year and as such will be getting some equalization money.

Jerry, thank you for this clarification.

In effect, the federal government taxes from rich individuals across Canada and then gives this money, according to an arcane formula, to certain provincial governments.

-----

The logic of this equalization system (if there is one) is that people in rich provinces would like to pay people in poor provinces to stay at home and not migrate to the rich provinces where local taxes are arbitrarily lower and take advantage of the rich provinces' benefits. (IMHO, this logic entirely ignores the way people living in Canada use language and how they choose to move around the country. Quebecers don't choose to move to Alberta the way Newfoundlanders do.)

As Brian Mulroney often argued, Quebec independance is difficult simply because Quebec would have to refuse 8 billion per year. (On my French thread, where I posted this Lysiane Gagnon article, this point has been recognized.)

But IMHO, there's more. Quebec independance is also a difficult economic proposition because of Quebec dairy farmers who enjoy a privileged place in Canada's milk distribution system/market.

Pierre Trudeau was a sly federalist. He enshrined equalization in the constitution and made our federal milk marketing board a provincial entitlement.

Edited May 10, 2009 by August1991

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Trudeau was indeed sly. Unfortunately we have not a single person in politics that can lay such a claim today. For that reason we will continue on this path to nowhere while doing nothing.

[Smallc]

The provinces don't "pay into" equalization. That is a myth! The citizens and business taxes from each province constitute the federal revenue stream, from that all things flow. Strangely the "provinces" get a kickback from the feds of OUR tax dollars to squander in their usual manner. The point I was trying to make was that Ontario will be a have not province for this year and as such will be getting some equalization money.

Yes, I'm quite aware of how equalization works. Every province and territory receives tax money in the form of transfers, from the richest (NWT) to the poorest (PEI I believe). This year, the fact that Ontario will receive $357M from equalization doesn't have to mean that they are getting money from say...the citizens of Alberta. Because Ontario citizens pay $22B more in federal tax than the receive in federal services or transfers, they are simply getting a small amount of the tax money that would usually be shifted elsewhere. This means that there is slightly less to shift elsewhere, but it doesn't really change much of anything in terms of what Ontario does for most of the rest of Canada. When the situation ends, they will most likely again become the largest dollar per dollar contributor to federal transfers(Alberta is the largest per capita).

Edited May 10, 2009 by Smallc

[Smallc]

The logic of this equalization system (if there is one) is that people in rich provinces would like to pay people in poor provinces to stay at home and not migrate to the rich provinces where local taxes are arbitrarily lower and take advantage of the rich provinces' benefits.

The logic of equalization is that no matter where we live in CANADA (you know, big country just above the US), we will enjoy approximately the same level of government services and taxes as everyone else in CANADA. It thinks beyond regional attitudes and that's why it's a wonderful program.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The logic of equalization is that no matter where we live in CANADA (you know, big country just above the US), we will enjoy approximately the same level of government services and taxes as everyone else in CANADA. It thinks beyond regional attitudes and that's why it's a wonderful program.

Wonderful program? A system of government sanctioned political welfare that rewards the less economically functional provinces for the incompetence of their own provincial political leaders at the expense of federal tax payers from other more functional regions, will never, and I repeat never, be said by myself to be a "wonderful" program.

The entire system of taxation is completely reprehensible to my mind. We enacted legislation that punishes the citizens for their efforts will it rewards those who make little effort at all. It is not a "fair" system at all.

[Smallc]

The entire system of taxation is completely reprehensible to my mind. We enacted legislation that punishes the citizens for their efforts will it rewards those who make little effort at all. It is not a "fair" system at all.

Well then, it's a good thing that we don't make legislation based on your mind. Equalization doesn't punish anyone. It benefits all Canadians because it allows us to all stand on equal footing. Not every province is fortunate enough to be sitting on fields of oil and natural gas, and there is no way you're going to convince me that the wealth of your province comes as a result of anything else. Equalization ensures that one province can not selfishly hoard prosperity while others sit in the dark. thank goodness, despite what's in your mind, equalization isn't going anywhere.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Well then, it's a good thing that we don't make legislation based on your mind. Equalization doesn't punish anyone. It benefits all Canadians because it allows us to all stand on equal footing. Not every province is fortunate enough to be sitting on fields of oil and natural gas, and there is no way you're going to convince me that the wealth of your province comes as a result of anything else. Equalization ensures that one province can not selfishly hoard prosperity while others sit in the dark. thank goodness, despite what's in your mind, equalization isn't going anywhere.

Easy words to speak. The reality is far more complex. With a majority of the national demographic, and a majority of the national slate of representative to the Parliament of Canada all the chips lay in central Canada. Now since Mulroney crated the outrage which formed the Bloc, Ontario sits even more securely in its position. The rest of the nation are second class citizens in comparison, Ontario rules.

No province has anything like a real manufacturing sector outside of the Toronto- Montreal corridor. No province contributes more per capita to equalization than Alberta. You realize of course that those oil companies are for the most part foreign corporations, it is only the lowlife employees of those big companies that actually pay those taxes. The province doesn't pay a dime, the citizens do. We have too because the corporations right off everything under the sun and pay very little at the end of the day. Equalization punishes the citizens of Alberta by transferring less federal money, programs and jobs to this province. Most of the jobs in Alberta are created by small business, not large business. We have almost no secondary industry, which has the largest proportion of jobs. So we are talking apples and oranges.

Equalization is designed to maintain a status quo, and by definition that stands in the way of progress. Take that a step further and you see an impediment to positive change.

[Molly]

That's a bit of a crock, Jerry.

As a poor low-life employee, you pay less than half as much provincial income tax as mostof the rest of Canada. And job creation? Does this mean you finally have enough warm bodies to do the jobs that need doing? That must be a RELIEF!

And you aren't paying small taxes because you are doing without, either. Program spending in Alberta is higher than in any other province, even though, where the real biggie, healthcare, is concerned, you are demographically young.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

That's a bit of a crock, Jerry.

As a poor low-life employee, you pay less than half as much provincial income tax as mostof the rest of Canada. And job creation? Does this mean you finally have enough warm bodies to do the jobs that need doing? That must be a RELIEF!

And you aren't paying small taxes because you are doing without, either. Program spending in Alberta is higher than in any other province, even though, where the real biggie, healthcare, is concerned, you are demographically young.

The rate of taxation in Alberta is in fact lower than in most of the rest of the nation. Yet we still pay more per capita than the rest of the nation into equalization. Go figure, now what does that tell you? Business pays very little in proportion to private citizens, what used to be an 80/20 split six decades ago has reversed itself in favour of business. That is funny because there is a hell of a lot less farmers and a whole lot more corporations. The other side of the economic development coin is the number of jobs created. Yet even here we are dealing with primary industry to a much greater extent than most people think. Secondary industry is where the vast numbers of employees can be found.

Program spending in Alberta has only recently been reinstated. For a decade we had tight control on provincial spending because after the NEP this province had to cut far deeper than any other. The former major of Edmonton, Mr. Decore brought the debt to th public eye, Klein caught intercepted the ball and ran to the end zone with it. We now had very little debt left at all, in fact most of it is already paid off, and the balance is being met without payout penalties. Certain liabilities still exist, but are being dealt with to the point that I can say we are a long ways ahead of any other little corner of the continent and very nearly the rest of the world. Yes our resources have made this possible. Yes those resources were developed with the help of eastern Canada as well as a great deal of foreign investment capital, and yes we have many blessings to count. Notwithstanding these things the people of this province have contributed in no small fraction to our success.

[waldo]

Jerry, why is Alberta in, uhhh.... "technical" deficit?

why is Alberta infrastructure sorely lacking, particularly in relation to paying down the debt at the expense of infrastructure spending... and getting caught paying exorbitant costs during the peak rather than "manageable costs" during the lows?

and... again... another Albertan falls-back on the NEP: we'll be arriving, shortly, at the 30th anniversary... at what point will Albertans let it die? More significantly when will (most) Albertans be able to recognize the significance of global events coincident to the NEP period. Of course the NEP impacted... but not to the "sky is falling" degree that (most) Albertans like to fall-back on. (/NEP rant)

[Leafless]

Equalization ensures that one province can not selfishly hoard prosperity while others sit in the dark.

Hydro Quebec hoards their profits from electricity production and does not pay either provincial or federal income taxes.

Hydro-Québec doesn't currently pay provincial or federal income taxes either-only a $2 billion dividend to the provincial government.

http://media.www.mcgilltribune.com/media/s...078-page2.shtml

[Leafless]

Yes, because Google Translate is so hard to use. I'm trying to learn French right now because it's an official language if this country...

French it is not an official language of Canada.

English and French are official languages of the federal government and not the provinces.

This is with the exception of New Brunswick which harbours both federal official languages, making it the only official bilingual province in Canada.

[Smallc]

People have different opinions on equalization. Thankfully, my opinion is supported by the constitution and reality.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Jerry, why is Alberta in, uhhh.... "technical" deficit?

why is Alberta infrastructure sorely lacking, particularly in relation to paying down the debt at the expense of infrastructure spending... and getting caught paying exorbitant costs during the peak rather than "manageable costs" during the lows?

and... again... another Albertan falls-back on the NEP: we'll be arriving, shortly, at the 30th anniversary... at what point will Albertans let it die? More significantly when will (most) Albertans be able to recognize the significance of global events coincident to the NEP period. Of course the NEP impacted... but not to the "sky is falling" degree that (most) Albertans like to fall-back on. (/NEP rant)

Technical my left nut! The fools in political control of this province have once again proven they cannot find their own behinds with two hands and a hunting dog. If you were here during the NEP you would not likely speak in the manner you do. Tens of thousands of folks lost their jobs, thousands of small business operations went under and families literally sold their homes to avoid the same fate. It was a market meltdown across the board here. As of this moment Ontario is now seeing what can happen in their own backyard. Of course the feds did nothing for Alberta, but the same cannot be said about Ontario can it?

Our infrastructure spending is still trying to right the wrongs of our past, not to mention the latest boom and bust cycle. Those cycles are how we live over here, subject to the good will of the free market system. Held to ransom by the supply and demand economic system we have chosen. These things are merely facts of life, yet the political realities are based on something altogether different are they not?

[Borg]

Technical my left nut! The fools in political control of this province have once again proven they cannot find their own behinds with two hands and a hunting dog. If you were here during the NEP you would not likely speak in the manner you do. Tens of thousands of folks lost their jobs, thousands of small business operations went under and families literally sold their homes to avoid the same fate. It was a market meltdown across the board here. As of this moment Ontario is now seeing what can happen in their own backyard. Of course the feds did nothing for Alberta, but the same cannot be said about Ontario can it?

Which is why - to this day - my people would drive 500 miles to piss on trudeaus gravestone before they would walk 5 feet to shake the hand of his git.

Borg

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Which is why - to this day - my people would drive 500 miles to piss on trudeaus gravestone before they would walk 5 feet to shake the hand of his git.

Borg

Borg, dude it wasn't all Trudeaus fault you realize. King Peter had an awful lot to do with it. Before the NEP we had no provincial gas taxes, the province has made billions over the NEP. The citizens have not fared so well mind you. Business took it in the ear, but the big boys recovered in short order and have done very well thanks to the efforts of our PC government.

My point was that leadership even at the provincial level is very important. You can even drop that down to the municipal level and say the same thing. Alberta is far from perfect in this regard. The sad thing is that we never seem to learn from our mistakes with respect to choosing our representatives and leaders. I have heard the same story three times about the boom and bust cycles. There always seems to be an old bumper sticker around to remind us of our little motto about not screwing up the next boom, unfortunately the politicians amongst get in the way of getting something done about it. With the wealth of this province and the dominance of the one party political system we have, my dog could have run in any of the last ten elections and secured a seat as a PC Party member and my cat could have been the head administrator. Considering what we have pissed away we may have been better off with my pets running the show.

[Molly]

More significantly when will (most) Albertans be able to recognize the significance of global events coincident to the NEP period. Of course the NEP impacted... but not to the "sky is falling" degree that (most) Albertans like to fall-back on. (/NEP rant)

Yep. Even though it is time to set it far enough aside (but not forget it ) to move forward, that part's wrong. The sky DID fall. 'Global events' DIDN'T do it.

[whowhere]

When they use French it is as if they really don't want to be understood...If they go French first in their address - then repeat it in English, the average persons attention span will have wained by the time the person has spoken - in effect bored. It's so tedious when a political trys to appease the French in Canada by speaking bad French...mean while the rest of the world uses English...I wonder if a South African goes on in Dutch first...then spews in English - and why did the lady speaking on behalf of the World Health Orgainiztion speak in English - why not French? Cos' French is the old imperial language and has had it's day - world wide - Canada should dump the french thing.

Yes the Francais should cease and desist the use of the so called French Language. In furtherance the English should also cease and desist as well. Come back to the forum writing with the English Alphabet. French, English, Italian, Spanish, etc etc is nothing more than regurgitated Latin words. Think about it. You people have eff all going for you. You spiral in your elitist dementia which amounts to what?? In the end who is really listening to you?

If the English Language is so superior why is Canada a basket weaving country? All Canada has going for it is its chronic hate for Quebec and anything French. It time Canada pull itself together and focus on being prosperous rather than being the Nation of pathetic Losers you all really are.

French, English, whatever, you are shit in my eyes.

Losers!!

Signed on Behalf of

Jupiter