EI debate could lead to election: Ignatieff

[benny]

I seem to recall that during the big receession in the eighties we had double digit unemployment and double digit inflation. It was far and away worse than what we're exerperiencing now.

But I guess it sounds better to say it's the worst recession since 1945. Hell, maybe he actually thinks it's true! he probably wasn't even in Canada during the eighties.

I would not compare two storms while I battling one of them anyway.

[Smallc]

Still, your zeal is to be commended. Your innate intelligence outshines your youth. I suspect that you will eventually prove that old axiom of how being a Liberal at 20 shows you have a heart and being a Conservative at 30 shows you have a brain.

Oh, I don't know, I more agree with this line.

Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.

John Stuart Mill

I don't plan to become a Conservative. The fact that there are people of all ages and all income groups are liberal and conservative proves at least one of the axioms wrong.

[Smallc]

That must be aweful boring. Maybe try watching something other than the CBC too, because it certainly has its own spin on things.

Love politics and love CBC. There is nothing more exciting and no better broadcast news organization on this side of the pond. CBC News comes with very little spin opposed to almost any other.

but you only started watching Question Period recently, and you have nothing to compare the current government with.

I've watched it through two successive governments, but yes, it is a rather recent thing. I compare Harper to Martin...and that is why I consider Harper to be dishonest.

It's not cynical.

Yes, you are, as demonstrated below.

EVERY politician out there is full of **** and you'd do well to remember that.

Politicians are people much like all others. They are probably on average no more or less honest. There are both honest and dishonest ones.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Smallc

[benny]

I suspect that you will eventually prove that old axiom of how being a Liberal at 20 shows you have a heart and being a Conservative at 30 shows you have a brain.

Being a Conservative as soon as 30 shows you have your neck redden by the Sun.

[Wild Bill]

Being a Conservative as soon as 30 shows you have your neck redden by the Sun.

No, it simply means that as you get older you tend to demand more practical proof of claims and arguments, rather than just the religious faith and zeal of youth.

If you're lucky, of course. Otherwise you stay fooled forever, taking the easy route of demonizing your opponents and elevating your champions to an undeserved sainthood, instead of being objective about what they actually say and do.

If someone is old enough to understand the term ad hominem then they should be old enough not to use those kinds of immature arguments.

[noahbody]

I've watched it through two successive governments, but yes, it is a rather recent thing. I compare Harper to Martin...and that is why I consider Harper to be dishonest.

What turned me off of Martin was how dishonest and misleading he was during his election campaigns. You must have been one of the many fooled.

Don't get me started on Chretien.

[Smallc]

No, it simply means that as you get older you tend to demand more practical proof of claims and arguments

Conservatives certainly don't have a monopoly on truth and fact.

[Moonbox]

Love politics and love CBC. There is nothing more exciting and no better broadcast news organization on this side of the pond. CBC News comes with very little spin opposed to almost any other.

CBC comes with a tremendous amount of spin. Along with the Toronto Star I consider it the most prominent and most consistently pro-Liberal media outlet in Canada. I'm not surprised you 'love' it.

I've watched it through two successive governments, but yes, it is a rather recent thing. I compare Harper to Martin...and that is why I consider Harper to be dishonest.

Forgive my 'cynicism' but I flat out don't believe that as a 17 year old you regularly watched question period. Sorry.

Politicians are people much like all others. They are probably on average no more or less honest. There are both honest and dishonest ones.

There are degrees of honesty with politicians, but there are no 'honest' ones. Like I said before, you name a recent political leader and we can all give you numerous examples of blatant dishonesty.

It's a politician's natural job to dupe the masses. Their INTENTIONS may and probably most often ARE honest, but their methods and means almost never are. The circus that is our House of Commons right now is a clown show of manipulators doing whatever they can to make their opponents look bad and make themselves look good.

I shouldn't have said I'm NOT cynical. I'm VERY cynical about politicians but we all SHOULD be. It's the cynicism that encourages me to look a little further into things and not form my opinions based on naive emotional attachments or resentment towards a particular party/leader. I don't like any of them and that allows me to base my opinions on what they have done and they are likely to do rather than flip flopping and nattering they generally do.

You act like being cynical about politics is a bad thing. You'll change your mind after you've followed a full government or two during Question Period.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Moonbox

[Smallc]

CBC comes with a tremendous amount of spin. Along with the Toronto Star I consider it the most prominent and most consistently pro-Liberal media outlet in Canada. I'm not surprised you 'love' it.

I suppose it all comes down to opinion. I don't really consider any Canadian media to have a great deal of bias overall. I prefer CBC to the others because it goes more in depth with stories. And, despite your dislike, the CBC is a very respected journalistic organization by the likes of the Canadian Press, The Associated Press, CNN, BBC, CSPAN ABC (the Australian one) etc, etc, etc. They all share stories, reporters, broadcasts, and information because they are all in the sphere of very good journalistic organizations (even if CNN has a tendency to jump to the sensational).

Forgive my 'cynicism' but I flat out don't believe that as a 17 year old you regularly watched question period. Sorry.

You don't have to believe me. It doesn't make it any less true.

not form my opinions based on naive emotional attachments or resentment towards a particular party/leader.

Since I carry a Liberal card and voted for the 'other guy' last time, I don't think I can be categorized as someone who often makes political decisions based on emotion. I find it useful to view politicians as regular people. That's how I form my vies on them. I don't find it useful in my analysis to always assume that they're lying to me. I give them the benefit of the doubt, the same thing that I would give to anyone. That said, the Prime Minister has crossed the benefit line.

Now, with all of that said, I don't think it's wrong for anyone to look at politicians the way they do (although people are often unfair). I simply choose not to look at them in the way you do. That doesn't make your way or my way wrong or right. Your way seems to work for you and mine for me.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Smallc

[Wild Bill]

Conservatives certainly don't have a monopoly on truth and fact.

And neither do Liberals!

Wasn't that the original point? Why are you arguing?

[Smallc]

What turned me off of Martin was how dishonest and misleading he was during his election campaigns. You must have been one of the many fooled.

I must have missed something that he said he would do in 2004 and didn't do or start doing in the short term that followed.

[Smallc]

And neither do Liberals!

Wasn't that the original point? Why are you arguing?

I didn't think that was the point. You probably aren't reading this, but I still feel it's necessary to apologize for the misunderstanding.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Smallc

[benny]

No, it simply means that as you get older you tend to demand more practical proof of claims and arguments, rather than just the religious faith and zeal of youth.

Conservatism and obtuse religious faith go together.

[Moonbox]

I suppose it all comes down to opinion. I don't really consider any Canadian media to have a great deal of bias overall. I prefer CBC to the others because it goes more in depth with stories. And, despite your dislike, the CBC is a very respected journalistic organization by the likes of the Canadian Press, The Associated Press, CNN, BBC, CSPAN ABC (the Australian one) etc, etc, etc. They all share stories, reporters, broadcasts, and information because they are all in the sphere of very good journalistic organizations (even if CNN has a tendency to jump to the sensational).

I read the BBC and CNN regularly (CNN i don't trust either) and they rarely if ever link articles from the CBC. The Globe and Mail I see quite often when American media is referencing Canadian news but that's another matter altogether. The CBC is widely considered heavily pro-Liberal and has been for some time.

Since I carry a Liberal card and voted for the 'other guy' last time, I don't think I can be categorized as someone who often makes political decisions based on emotion. I find it useful to view politicians as regular people. That's how I form my vies on them. I don't find it useful in my analysis to always assume that they're lying to me. I give them the benefit of the doubt, the same thing that I would give to anyone. That said, the Prime Minister has crossed the benefit line.

I didn't categorize you as a dumb voter. I simply said my cynicism helps me and many others dig through the balogna that most voters WANT to be true and that I know is not. If you're going to view them as regular people, view them as the 'used car salesman' sort of normal because it's politics to say what's going to impress the MOST amount of people regardless of whether or not it's necessarily true. They can mince words after the promise is broken and generally avoid any consequences.

Now, with all of that said, I don't think it's wrong for anyone to look at politicians the way they do (although people are often unfair). I simply choose not to look at them in the way you do. That doesn't make your way or my way wrong or right. Your way seems to work for you and mine for me.

That's all up for debate. Like I said before, they're ALL proven liars, hypocrites, opportunists and are experts at misleading people. Name any recent Canadian political leader and I could EASILY find you lists and lists of things they've lied about, mislead people about, omitted, fudged etc etc.

The cynicism doesn't come from nowhere.

[benny]

That's all up for debate. Like I said before, they're ALL proven liars, hypocrites, opportunists and are experts at misleading people. Name any recent Canadian political leader and I could EASILY find you lists and lists of things they've lied about, mislead people about, omitted, fudged etc etc.

The cynicism doesn't come from nowhere.

Enter politics and do better.

[Smallc]

I read the BBC and CNN regularly (CNN i don't trust either) and they rarely if ever link articles from the CBC.

CSPAN uses the national from time to time. THE BBC and the CBC will help eachother out when necessary, they certainly aren't adversarial. I have seen programs that were co produced by CBC and ABC. CNN the channel will use CBC clips and information on matters dealing with Canada. Nobody in the journalistic world that I have seen has ever accused the news gathering side of the CBC of having bias. There has been some concern over bias in the opinion pieces (not enough differing opinions present) but they have worked to address it since the ombudsman brought it up. There has been no attack outside of right wing circles on the journalistic integrity of the CBC.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Smallc

[Smallc]

If you're going to view them as regular people, view them as the 'used car salesman' sort of normal

Car salesman are also normal people.

[benny]

Car salesman are also normal people.

Ignatieff has the noble title of "count".

[Smallc]

Ignatieff has the noble title of "count".

My cats breath smells like cat food.

[benny]

My cats breath smells like cat food.

Tell me what you eat, and I shall tell you what you are.

[Smallc]

Tell me what you eat, and I shall tell you what you are.

I yam what I yam....

[benny]

I yam what I yam....

EI = UI

[Moonbox]

Nobody in the journalistic world that I have seen has ever accused the news gathering side of the CBC of having bias. There has been some concern over bias in the opinion pieces (not enough differing opinions present) but they have worked to address it since the ombudsman brought it up.

Worked to address it? I'm not holding my breath. The CBC is unique to Canadian media in that it depends on federal funding and the Liberals have long championed it. The CBC is WIDELY criticized for this connection and the CBC ombudsman himself so much as admitted to a leftist bias as late as September 2008. There haven't been any significant changes and admitting to the problem isn't fixing it.

[Smallc]

the CBC ombudsman himself so much as admitted to a leftist bias as late as September 2008.

First, the CBC ombudsman had better admit problems as it is his job to find problems. His findings were that CBC was not breaking any bias rules in terms of news content, but that they did not have enough differing views in their opinion section on their website. That's it. That is what they are taking steps to fix. CBC Radio 1 is (I believe) number 1 in Calgary....that should say something.

I realize I'm not going to convince you of anything, so I'm not going to try any longer. I do have a question though. I watch all 3 national news casts some days (City News International doesn't count in my mind) and I don't recognize all that much bias from any of them. Which media outlet do you consider to unbiased?

Edited May 7, 2009 by Smallc

[madmax]

Worked to address it? I'm not holding my breath. The CBC is unique to Canadian media in that it depends on federal funding and the Liberals have long championed it. The CBC is WIDELY criticized for this connection and the CBC ombudsman himself so much as admitted to a leftist bias as late as September 2008. There haven't been any significant changes and admitting to the problem isn't fixing it.

As a publicly owned institution, a leftist bias would have existed from the start. However this was supported by multiple Liberal and Conservative Governments since the dawn of television and radio. Many Conservatives of that early era believed in public television and radio.

I do not see a "leftist" bias at the CBC. I see a "Liberal Bias" that has shifted to alot of government pandering of the current CPC government. More to the point, as governments change so does the direction of the CBC.

The CBC is not one to promote "real left wing" issues or causes, let alone Centre Left parties like the NDP that left wingers love to bash as being to "right wing".

I am not really a believer in the rightwing leftwing concept, but it is used enough that that is the way we communicate ideology, although at a certain point it seems to reflect a circle.

Regardless, the CBC is overtly bias to the Liberals , lukewarm to the CPC and generally hostile to the NDP, which fits in with most media coverage that is private.

The CBC was designed to work in remote areas of Canada that the private sector couldn't afford to expand towards. Much like the railways, hydro and many other things that needed to be advanced by the public good over the delays of waiting for a "private sector solution".

Television has taken a dramatic change in the past 15 years, and the CBC having burned most of its socialist bridges, actually never having built one, will fall prey to both the LPC and CPC funding cuts. The LPC will bleed the CBC, long and slow while maintaining some sort of "public televison". The CPC is unlikely to cut the CBC dead on any occassion.

Besides, as I personally know a ton of actors, directors, writers who cut there teeth at the CBC and that's how they managed to get there skills to turn private television stations into producing good Canadian Shows.

Prior to just recently, private television couldn't produce a half decent Canadian show.

People like to bash the CBC. I don't.

In the meantime, the CBC news loves to take issues such as EI and its problems, problems with EI today that are the direct result of Liberals punishing those who lose their jobs, and only reporting that Ignatieff is going to "fix EI" whereas there has been alot of action from various groups and of course the NDP on this issue.

But when Ignatieff says it, the CBC promotes it, and that could become problematic in the future with the broadcaster.

And just to add to the debate...... I do believe the working time to collect EI needs to be reduced, as it is becoming very apparent that employees will not be steadily employed in the new Temp agency economy.