eyeball Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) Speaking of the Charter, I've suggest here and in another thread that a class action challenge be taken on behalf of FAS afflicted people. I argued on the grounds that these people are not receiving equal benefit or protection before the law. It is often said that if prohibited drugs were legalized that the amount of harm done to society would greatly increase. If this is actually true its reasonable to conclude prohibition is working and the law is protecting people from the danger that harmful drugs can do. Given the huge numbers of people that are harmed by alcohol relative to those that are harmed by drugs though its just as reasonable to conclude that people afflicted by alcohol poisoning are not benefitting from an equal protection before the law that is guaranteed in Section 15 of the Charter. It was pointed out when I posed this question that since FAS afflicts fetuses the Charter doesn't apply because fetuses don't have rights but this seems like a really thin excuse for not dealing with this issue head on. Is the pro-life lobby aware of this issue? I accept that this issue has some really gritty moral nuances but it also has some really gritty human consequences that cannot and should not be ignored. Should the state have the authority, stemming from its responsibility to protect, to intervene in pregnacies? I wouldn't subscribe to the grotesque intervention that's been suggested above but I definitly think greater regulations and controls that limit the ability of people to get their hands on harmful substances is called for. I think a lot of the harm being done could be reduced if everyone had to get a doctor's advice and prescription, or a clean bill of health before they could purchase or use alcohol or any other substance legally. If safer recreational substances exist that could be prescribed, shouldn't they be? Perhaps this is why the pro-life lobby is nowhere in sight, persuing the issue might open a lid on a can of worms. I think its fair to say the vast majority of pro-lifers are also pro-drug warriors. Edited March 23, 2009 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Yes I call YOU sick! And you are a criminal. i've already asked you twice to show me through A and B what laws or statutes my mere suggestion that severe cases of FAS or TCS should be given candidacy for prompt euthanasia... You responded by telling me this was a manifestation of hate... Which can only be described with bone chilling accuracy as an Orwellian "THOUGHT CRIME" if you remember your 1984 (you probably don't). You think that the act of thinking certain things is in itself "criminal" if these are "politically incorrect"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I live, eat and breath the Charter my friend and unlike you, do not substitute my feelings for the law of the country. FAS children ARE an identifiable group and promoting murder IS a crime under the Criminal Code of Canada. The discussion of eugenics crosses the line when it no longer talks about trying to find solutions to genetic problems and instead promotes the use of genocide to achieve an end of racial purity. Actually your "feeling" is written in every line you write... it permeates everything you say. You oppose my suggestion of euthanasia because it contravenes with your religion of political correctness which tells you that we're all equal and that no distinctions can be made between people- and those who DO make distinction: are vicious "haters" who need to be imprisoned. And its impossible to discuss rationally with you (as is obvious from your refusal to answer my questions about the legal basis of your accusations) since your politically correct belief system isn't based in reason but rather comes out of a cathechism: they are statements of PC religious orthodoxy. Given the spell this nonsense casts over minds that prefer to emote rather than think, and the political power of masses in an ochlocracy when they are stampeded by their masters, we may be heading for a new and more terrible Dark Age. use of genocide now? you're having a laugh aren't? you silly individual you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) Speaking of the Charter, I've suggest here and in another thread that a class action challenge be taken on behalf of FAS afflicted people. I argued on the grounds that these people are not receiving equal benefit or protection before the law. It is often said that if prohibited drugs were legalized that the amount of harm done to society would greatly increase. If this is actually true its reasonable to conclude prohibition is working and the law is protecting people from the danger that harmful drugs can do. Given the huge numbers of people that are harmed by alcohol relative to those that are harmed by drugs though its just as reasonable to conclude that people afflicted by alcohol poisoning are not benefitting from an equal protection before the law that is guaranteed in Section 15 of the Charter.It was pointed out when I posed this question that since FAS afflicts fetuses the Charter doesn't apply because fetuses don't have rights but this seems like a really thin excuse for not dealing with this issue head on. Is the pro-life lobby aware of this issue? I accept that this issue has some really gritty moral nuances but it also has some really gritty human consequences that cannot and should not be ignored. Should the state have the authority, stemming from its responsibility to protect, to intervene in pregnacies? I wouldn't subscribe to the grotesque intervention that's been suggested above but I definitly think greater regulations and controls that limit the ability of people to get their hands on harmful substances is called for. I think a lot of the harm being done could be reduced if everyone had to get a doctor's advice and prescription, or a clean bill of health before they could purchase or use alcohol or any other substance legally. If safer recreational substances exist that could be prescribed, shouldn't they be? Perhaps this is why the pro-life lobby is nowhere in sight, persuing the issue might open a lid on a can of worms. I think its fair to say the vast majority of pro-lifers are also pro-drug warriors. When the effects of a substance or drug are common knowledge, use of it in a free society (as SHOULD be obvious to anyone interested in such things as freedom) should depend only on the decision of each individual. If, unlike modern Canadians, we value personal liberty, either as a matter of ethnical principle or as a biologically salubrious method for improvement of our people, we should observe with drugs, as with other articles of commerce, the rule that the purchaser must decide for himself whether he wants the article and can afford the price. Rational persons should know what they are doing when they purchase MDMA or scotch. They may, of course, be mistaken themselves about the effects of certain substances or have inherited some form of mental tropism or retardation or genetic deficiency, and to be sure there doubtlessly will be persons in whom the results of their freedom of choice will be pathetic for themselves or for persons near to them, just as it now is in the case of alcohol. But that, however much it may make sentimentalists jabber and sob, is precisely what a rational society should not only permit but want. In a sense if you are stupid or crazy enough to want to go skydiving without a parachute, you should be free to do so... allowing people the right to suffer their foolishness will provide our society with an indispensable "épuration" and "cull the herd" and deal away with individuals who have biologically forfeited their right to live. A civilized society necessarily protects its individual members from domestic and foreign violence, physical or economic, but it cannot protect individuals from themselves and exhibits its own deterioration when it madly tries to do so. Persons who do not have the intelligence and moral stamina to govern their own lives when they are free to do so should not perpetuate their genetic weakness and thus weaken the nation as a whole. There are often good reasons for blunders in many matters, from matrimony to fiduciary relations, through inexperience, deceit, or fallacious appearances, but certainly the resort to drugs of well-known efficacy involves a decision for which the individual must bear the sole responsibility. Slavish addiction is proof of unfitness for civilized liberty and hence unfitness for civilized society. Edited March 23, 2009 by lictor616 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Slavish addictions may make a person unfit to operate in a civil society? Well what about those that are slavishly addicted to profit and a life style of luxury generated by the sale of nicontine, alcohol and useless pharma product that alters the state of human consiousness to the point of intellectual ineptness? There are many types of addictions - mental - biological that are chemically induced...I will take your nice essay into consideration whey you no longer are addicted and slavish....It's also very much a cosmetic thing - People detest a slobering and slurring drunkard, because he is unpleasant to look at - but - they do except a fool that is altered by anti-depressants and made cold hearted and cruel by tranquilizers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Slavish addictions may make a person unfit to operate in a civil society? Well what about those that are slavishly addicted to profit and a life style of luxury generated by the sale of nicontine, alcohol and useless pharma product that alters the state of human consiousness to the point of intellectual ineptness? There are many types of addictions - mental - biological that are chemically induced...I will take your nice essay into consideration whey you no longer are addicted and slavish....It's also very much a cosmetic thing - People detest a slobering and slurring drunkard, because he is unpleasant to look at - but - they do except a fool that is altered by anti-depressants and made cold hearted and cruel by tranquilizers. Slavishly addicted to profit? Like 101% of canadians and actually humanity too? A life of style? Has anybody ever died from such "addictions"... and if some did... then that is all fine isn't (the problem solved itself). There are different types of addiction - but these addictions are nugatory since if they are too exessive: they destroy the people they afflict: and again the problem becomes nugatory. And there's no need to prohibit alcohol anymore, no need to set a surveillance society, no need to police people anymore... that is the essence of a true FREE society of live and let live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Slavishly addicted to profit? Like 101% of canadians and actually humanity too?A life of style? Has anybody ever died from such "addictions"... and if some did... then that is all fine isn't (the problem solved itself). There are different types of addiction - but these addictions are nugatory since if they are too exessive: they destroy the people they afflict: and again the problem becomes nugatory. And there's no need to prohibit alcohol anymore, no need to set a surveillance society, no need to police people anymore... that is the essence of a true FREE society of live and let live. Smart fellow you are. You mention that no one died from being dependant finacially on the sale of addictive substances..true - One day years ago I was working on a film set in a very old distillery - I had some time and walked about, looking at the huge vats and the millions of gallons of whiskey that they produced since the middle 1800s..I thought of all the English and Irish labourers that built the nation and were in effect paid in booze...I thought of all the broken jaws - the domestic violence - the deaths - children that went without food and clothing...then I thought about those who's grand children now sit in bank towers, living comfortable and privledged lives. All because they were willing to destroy other human beings --- In fact the son of a man who's father traded booze with the Americans...who now holds a seat of power - He had a name, another name for alcohol...he called it THE DESTROYER.... I said to him - don't forget where you come from and why you are here - Your father was a bootlegger...He did not disagree. Now you mention that there is no need to police people anymore. You are correct - because police are useless as are the courts - If you are in danger or threatened - there is no point in asking the police to police - because they are part of a system of mayhem...One time I brought a cell phone to the authorities ---It had pictures that displayed hand guns on a table for sale - and pictures of the importer holding a gun in each hand posing for the camera - The police laughed at me and sent me on my way -----------there is no will to police. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I am concerned by program cuts that are quietly revealed on a weekend with no clarification by the government as to why. My only presumption is that the government does not want to talk about it. I suspect the reason for that is they know this issue is a moral time-bomb that could blow the lid off a Pandora's box of ethical and legal complexity. A bomb that is ticking down towards zero. The rates of FAS/FAE in some First Nations and Inuit communities are much higher than the national average. Moreover, FAS/FAE exists in the context of the history of colonization and devaluation endured by First Nations and Inuit, which has resulted in a loss of culture.Source If I didn't know any better I'd say the state has been practising a rather peculier form of eugenics/genocide in its own hideous way for decades. As has also been stated in this thread however FAS knows no racial boundary so whatever controls the state uses to intervene in the personal choices an individual makes they will have to be applied to everyone. This program cut only reinforces my belief that, one way or another, the supreme court will be the avenue through which the entire issue of substance use vs abuse, harm vs consequences, rights vs responsibilities and the policies that are used to address, accomodate or remediate these are turned on their heads. The politicians and government are just never going to do so on their own. I can't imagine a better slap upside their collective heads than a ruling that the state could be held liable for the damage that allowing the sale of alcohol has caused. The fact the damn state, or at least its provincial clones sells it is beyond ironic. Why should the state be treated any differently than someone who's held liable for overserving someone that later kills someone else or themselves when driving home? FAS, colonization, individual rights vs fetal rights vs collective rights vs state rights - the clouds of a perfect moral storm are gathering darkly. I would hazard to suggest that the entire issue is even more constitutionally important than Meech Lake or even instituting a draft. The state is very very afraid and that's probably not a bad thing. What is too bad is that so many Canadians are also afraid of the Charter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Smart fellow you are. You mention that no one died from being dependant finacially on the sale of addictive substances..true - One day years ago I was working on a film set in a very old distillery - I had some time and walked about, looking at the huge vats and the millions of gallons of whiskey that they produced since the middle 1800s..I thought of all the English and Irish labourers that built the nation and were in effect paid in booze...I thought of all the broken jaws - the domestic violence - the deaths - children that went without food and clothing...then I thought about those who's grand children now sit in bank towers, living comfortable and privledged lives. All because they were willing to destroy other human beings --- In fact the son of a man who's father traded booze with the Americans...who now holds a seat of power - He had a name, another name for alcohol...he called it THE DESTROYER.... I said to him - don't forget where you come from and why you are here - Your father was a bootlegger...He did not disagree. Now you mention that there is no need to police people anymore. You are correct - because police are useless as are the courts - If you are in danger or threatened - there is no point in asking the police to police - because they are part of a system of mayhem...One time I brought a cell phone to the authorities ---It had pictures that displayed hand guns on a table for sale - and pictures of the importer holding a gun in each hand posing for the camera - The police laughed at me and sent me on my way -----------there is no will to police. The laborers were too weak to get along without their hooch ... on their heads be it then. again the problem in this case is nugatory. Its also a safe bet that the "rich and privileged" on whom you blame the weakness and fecklessness of Irish laborers- we not similarly afflicted by an itch to drown in drunken unconcern. They were doubtless smarter, more stable and cunning. And thus were able to entertain such lifestyles. Alcohol is not destroyer, not by any reasonable analysis of alcohol. It is the EXCESS of alcohol that is problematic and deletrious to human health, as in excesses IN ANYTHING... excess in high carb/caloric foods will greatly undermine health. Drinking to much water ALSO, can kill a man... but who would dream to call water and food "destroyers" ... Police is for the uncivilized- who suffer what they must. And your little anecdote scores zero in verifiability and cogency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 The laborers were too weak to get along without their hooch ... on their heads be it then. again the problem in this case is nugatory. Its also a safe bet that the "rich and privileged" on whom you blame the weakness and fecklessness of Irish laborers- we not similarly afflicted by an itch to drown in drunken unconcern. They were doubtless smarter, more stable and cunning. And thus were able to entertain such lifestyles. Alcohol is not destroyer, not by any reasonable analysis of alcohol. It is the EXCESS of alcohol that is problematic and deletrious to human health, as in excesses IN ANYTHING... excess in high carb/caloric foods will greatly undermine health. Drinking to much water ALSO, can kill a man... but who would dream to call water and food "destroyers" ... Police is for the uncivilized- who suffer what they must. And your little anecdote scores zero in verifiability and cogency. Verifiability...that means naming names.. alcohol is the waste product of microbes - we get intoxicated on toxic waste - bug poop.. Labourers are not weak - they labour untill it hurts - and those that work hard feel the pain and maybe drink - and paraistes make declarations that they are supreme. Your whole apporach is the eccense of true lieing fiatism -----YOU want to stand there and declare yourself as king and the rest will have to BELIEVE your declaration and take their lowly positions - You are pushing a religion here - and I for one do not believe in you ---declare all you want - you are bluffing...../ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Verifiability...that means naming names.. alcohol is the waste product of microbes - we get intoxicated on toxic waste - bug poop.. Labourers are not weak - they labour untill it hurts - and those that work hard feel the pain and maybe drink - and paraistes make declarations that they are supreme. Your whole apporach is the eccense of true lieing fiatism -----YOU want to stand there and declare yourself as king and the rest will have to BELIEVE your declaration and take their lowly positions - You are pushing a religion here - and I for one do not believe in you ---declare all you want - you are bluffing...../ fine cheese and bread is also a process of fermentation and bug poop... Yogurt also is... and medical science (if you're not toally imune to reason) will tell you that pro biotic bacterial culture is perhaps the healthiest thing a person can consume. and cultures who prohibit alcohol (Saudi Arabia for instance) suffer for it greatly in health. http://therightmix.gov.au/pdfs/HealthBenefits.pdf you remind me of the crazed Christian ascetics of the early centuries who often pleased their sadistic god by immuring themselves in narrow cells in which they existed with the accumulating mass of their own excrement... what a pity that you probably refrain from enjoying the subtler pleasures of fine wine and cheeses. because of your sullen hatred of reason and silly fear of "bug poop"... what do you eat? water and wafers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 fine cheese and bread is also a process of fermentation and bug poop... Yogurt also is... and medical science (if you're not toally imune to reason) will tell you that pro biotic bacterial culture is perhaps the healthiest thing a person can consume. and cultures who prohibit alcohol (Saudi Arabia for instance) suffer for it greatly in health. http://therightmix.gov.au/pdfs/HealthBenefits.pdf you remind me of the crazed Christian ascetics of the early centuries who often pleased their sadistic god by immuring themselves in narrow cells in which they existed with the accumulating mass of their own excrement... what a pity that you probably refrain from enjoying the subtler pleasures of fine wine and cheeses. because of your sullen hatred of reason and silly fear of "bug poop"... what do you eat? water and wafers? Oh come on - now you're getting silly.. I am more dynamic than that - I have have been every man and everything...and this blaming God for your sadism is not cutting it with me...I would never roll in my own shit or lock myself in some crazed ascetic cell - but I am sure you are looking for someone to lock up to amuse yourself ----Lets be friends and from now on - shut up - I am the king and you are the new staff writer - You passed the audtion.. see you later - and say hello to brenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Doctor proposes suing alcohol companies over FAS damage. Story I think she should sue the dealers, like Sandra Bergen succesfully did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Oh come on - now you're getting silly.. I am more dynamic than that - I have have been every man and everything...and this blaming God for your sadism is not cutting it with me...I would never roll in my own shit or lock myself in some crazed ascetic cell - but I am sure you are looking for someone to lock up to amuse yourself ----Lets be friends and from now on - shut up - I am the king and you are the new staff writer - You passed the audtion.. see you later - and say hello to brenda. Hahahahahahahaha... Man, Oleg. You're a hoot. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Hahahahahahahaha...Man, Oleg. You're a hoot. :lol: This lector616..came on like gang busters..I was hoping to hear from the little guy that sat next to Austin Powers in the little seat..what's his name - the little fellow with the big ideas. Mr. 616 sure is a good scribe..It's as if someone somewhere sent in the heavey weaponry. Frightened me at first..was not expecting such a hard and informed attack....BUT - my usual but...I can handle the egg head -----let me at em.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Doctor proposes suing alcohol companies over FAS damage. StoryI think she should sue the dealers, like Sandra Bergen succesfully did. suing alcohol companies? and run the cost of business up for what? And put yet MORE bureaucratic red tape where it doesn't belong? have we degenerated into a bunch of mindless slobs? We all get to suffer the consequences because some native burnout couldn't be bothered to NOT drink while bearing a child? I guess next we'll be suing Glock every time some jamaican street thug shoots someone... Have we become unfit for a civilized free society? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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