israeli soldiers admit to war crimes

[dub]

We can never know the 'thing' in itself. Kant, I believe. However, Pallywood's lies tip the scales somewhat towards the Israelis. Hamas use 'experts' as well...and seems to fool the leftards every time.

not sure how you equate israeli soldiers testimony to war crimes as "pallywood". it's true that "some" israeli soldiers did not witness these war crimes first hand, but some did and they talked about it.

you're a dishonest person DoP.

[JB Globe]

We can never know the 'thing' in itself. Kant, I believe.

Translation: "I don't have any information to refute the fact that 50 or so Gaza medical facilities were hit by the IDF, so I'm going to start a philosophical discussion about objective reality in order to muddy the waters of the discussion."

Can I do this to invalidate claims you make? Or is this a tactic which only you are allowed to use.

[DogOnPorch]

Translation: "I don't have any information to refute the fact that 50 or so Gaza medical facilities were hit by the IDF, so I'm going to start a philosophical discussion about objective reality in order to muddy the waters of the discussion."

Can I do this to invalidate claims you make? Or is this a tactic which only you are allowed to use.

Sure you can use it because it's true. We DON"T know all the details and we CAN"T trust "Palestinian Sources" due to past experience. Israel sources re: their army's activities aren't much help either as the IDF plays its cards pretty close to the chest.

So your FACT that 50 (or so...) hospitals or baby milk factories or kindergartens or whatever were 'hit by the IDF' is worth about as much as anyone else's ivory tower opinion...mine included.

[dub]

Sure you can use it because it's true. We DON"T know all the details and we CAN"T trust "Palestinian Sources" due to past experience. Israel sources re: their army's activities aren't much help either as the IDF plays its cards pretty close to the chest.

it depends where the palestinian sources are coming from. the palestinian human rights groups are more trustworthy than the IDF who has, in numerous times, been caught lying or trying to cover up incidents.

just like i wouldn't trust hamas investigating the legality of its own activities, i wouldn't trust IDF doing it.

this is why the IDF is not allowing an independent israeli investigation.

[M.Dancer]

it depends where the palestinian sources are coming from. the palestinian human rights groups are more trustworthy than the IDF

No go ahead...pul the other one

just like i wouldn't trust hamas investigating the legality of its own activities, i wouldn't trust IDF doing it.

this is why the IDF is not allowing an independent israeli investigation.

Ridiculous....has the HRW not been allowed to inestigate....so I can then dismiss out of hand their 72 page report?

[dub]

No go ahead...pul the other one

just like i wouldn't trust hamas investigating the legality of its own activities, i wouldn't trust IDF doing it.

you're not making sense.

the IDF has not commissioned an independent group to investigate any of these matters. instead, they do their own investigations which normally lead to nothing.

Ridiculous....has the HRW not been allowed to inestigate....so I can then dismiss out of hand their 72 page report?

the IDF did not allow media or human rights groups to enter gaza during the conflict. have you heard otherwise?

Edited April 2, 2009 by dub

[M.Dancer]

you're not making sense.

the IDF has not commissioned an independent group to investigate any of these matters. instead, they do their own investigations which normally lead to nothing.

as far as not allowing; the IDF did not allow media or human rights groups to enter gaza during the conflict. have you heard otherwise?

No your aren't making sense...if the IDF commisioned a group...they would not be independant....they would be comminsioned by the IDF....An independant group has to be (listen carefully) independant....the IDF isn't stopping anyone from investigating on their own.

...there were already media in the Gaza....some were kicked out by Hamas....

[M.Dancer]

the IDF did not allow media or human rights groups to enter gaza during the conflict. have you heard otherwise?

So those investigators you claimed were on site, weren't on site? So what they did was take down heresay?

This is me laughing at you

[dub]

So those investigators you claimed were on site, weren't on site? So what they did was take down heresay?

This is me laughing at you

laugh all you want, but this is how investigations happen. the investigators were able to investigate their findings after the incidents were reported. during the attacks, israel did not allow the media or the organizations to be present. i'm glad to see that you're learning something new every day.

you think that they had investigators present in the concentration camps or gas chambers when they were being used by the nazis? are you still laughing?

[M.Dancer]

investigators were able to investigate their findings ....

[dub]

some acknowledge and accept when they make a mistake and some reply with a crazy laugh.

http://www.fearthegooberzilla.com/pics/crazy_laugh2.JPG

[bariboh]

If you take a bunch of 20-year-olds from Canada, hand them some automatic weapons, then drop them in an environment where they are being shot at by people speaking a language they don't understand, you could expect war crimes to be committed. Add the culture of distruct that exists between Palestinians and Israelis, and you can reasonably expect more war crimes.

Some units in the IDF acted honourably and treated the Palestinians they encountered with respect. Others acted like barbarians. This should be no surprise. War is nasty business. Obviously those that committed war crimes should be punished, but war crimes are committed in every war. If you want to stop war crimes, you must stop war.

[tango]

If you take a bunch of 20-year-olds from Canada, hand them some automatic weapons, then drop them in an environment where they are being shot at by people speaking a language they don't understand, you could expect war crimes to be committed. Add the culture of distruct that exists between Palestinians and Israelis, and you can reasonably expect more war crimes.

Some units in the IDF acted honourably and treated the Palestinians they encountered with respect. Others acted like barbarians. This should be no surprise. War is nasty business. Obviously those that committed war crimes should be punished, but war crimes are committed in every war. If you want to stop war crimes, you must stop war.

Absolutely.

And ALWAYS, the front line officers are scapegoated for the orders of the brass.

THAT's what has to change, imo, because it doesn't address the culture that encourages and rewards war crimes.

The IDF soldiers were ordered to clear houses in Gaza by shooting every person in them, because 'they haven't left ... and anyone who hasn't left Gaza is a terrorist'.

Whoever said that is the person responsible for the war crimes, and his superiors, until we get to the person who originated that order.

Soldiers should not be exempt, unless in danger themselves if they do not carry out the orders. However, they should not go down alone, when they are acting on orders in a war crimes command culture.

imo

And to clear up some details ... (read this dub)

Israeli troops shot 'unarmed Palestinian civilians under orders' during Gaza war

Published soldiers' testimonies contradict official version of events and reinforce Palestinian accounts of disproportionate force

A second squad leader, from the same brigade, described how a company commander ordered troops to shoot an elderly Palestinian woman who was walking on a road about 100 metres from a house the soldiers had taken over. He said he argued with his commander about the rules of engagement, particularly the way they shot without warning to clear houses.

Ha'aretz reported: "After the orders were changed, the squad leader's soldiers complained that 'We should kill everyone there [in the centre of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist.'"

The squad leader said: "You do not get the impression from the officers that there is any logic to it, but they won't say anything. To write 'death to the Arabs' on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing: to understand how much the IDF [israel Defence Forces] has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It's what I'll remember the most."

The head of the Oranim course was apparently "shocked" after hearing the soldiers' accounts of their fighting and reported his concerns to the army chief, Major General Gabi Ashkenazi. Ashkenazi's office asked for a transcript of the discussion, which was provided.

The Israeli military today first denied having "any previous knowledge or information about these incidents". Then in a later statement it admitted that the head of the course had sent a letter to the chief of staff's office "several weeks ago" describing the soldiers' accounts and that the military's chief education officer then met with the course head.

It said the military advocate general, Brigadier General Avichai Mendelblit, today instructed the military police to investigate the soldiers' accounts.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/1...tings-civilians

Edited April 12, 2009 by tango

[KrustyKidd]

The IDF soldiers were ordered to clear houses in Gaza by shooting every person in them, because 'they haven't left ... and anyone who hasn't left Gaza is a terrorist'.

According to your article this is not the case. In fact, it said this;

Article

In that transcript, one infantry squad leader said: "There was a house with a family inside … We put them in a room. Later we left the house and another platoon entered it, and a few days after that there was an order to release the family. They had set up positions upstairs.

Then, they were released (note that to be released, you could not have been shot which makes the above statement untrue);

Article

"The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right.

Furthermore, the article goes onto blame the IDF for the mistakes of a woman in the family;

Article

There was a sniper position on the roof.

" One mother and her two children didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was OK, and he should hold his fire and he ... he did what he was supposed to, like he was following his orders. The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him, closer than the lines he was told no one should pass. He shot them straight away. In any case, what happened is that in the end he killed them."

The squad leader said he believed the sniper did not feel regret. "I don't think he felt too bad about it, because after all, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders he was given.

The soldier was doing his job. He was instructed to shoot anyone coming to his position, not to challenge them or, to decide if they were a white hat or a black hat. That the woman did not understand instructions or that the sniper was not informed is not a war crime but a tragedy.

In any case, the investigations both internal and UN will hopefully clear this all up.

[tango]

According to your article this is not the case. In fact, it said this;

Article

Then, they were released (note that to be released, you could not have been shot which makes the above statement untrue);

Article

Furthermore, the article goes onto blame the IDF for the mistakes of a woman in the family;

Article

The soldier was doing his job. He was instructed to shoot anyone coming to his position, not to challenge them or, to decide if they were a white hat or a black hat. That the woman did not understand instructions or that the sniper was not informed is not a war crime but a tragedy.

In any case, the investigations both internal and UN will hopefully clear this all up.

Exactly. Following orders.

I don't blame soldiers.

Just where the orders came from:

He said he argued with his commander about the rules of engagement, particularly the way they shot without warning to clear houses.

Edited April 12, 2009 by tango

[KrustyKidd]

I don't blame soldiers.

Just where the orders came from:

He said he argued with his commander about the rules of engagement, particularly the way they shot without warning to clear houses.

Article

He said he argued with his commander about the rules of engagement, particularly the way they shot without warning to clear houses.

Ha'aretz reported: "After the orders were changed, the squad leader's soldiers complained that 'We should kill everyone there [in the centre of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist.'"

Seems the ROE were at the unit level if they could be changed that quickly rather than IDF wide. Possibly you might want to blame the soldiers (or possibly their immediate NCOs) as that seems to be where the problem (if any) lay seeing as how everybody from the Israeli military to the head of that course knew nothing about any such orders.

[dub]

does israel have something to hide? why not allow an investigation if it keeps saying it follows international law?

'Israel unlikely to assist UN war crimes probe'

By The Associated Press

Israel is "very unlikely" to cooperate with a UN agency's probe into whether Israel and Hamas committed war crimes in the recent Gaza war, a government official said Wednesday.

Hamas, meanwhile, said it is ready to work with the investigators, to be led by Richard Goldstone, a South African judge who served as chief UN prosecutor of war crimes in Yugoslavia and Rwanda.

International and local human rights groups have said there is strong suspicion both sides violated the rules of war in three weeks of fighting early this year that followed years of cross-border conflict.

The groups have said Gaza's Hamas rulers should be investigated for firing rockets indiscriminately at Israeli civilians and for allegedly using Gaza civilians as human shields during the fighting that ended Jan. 18.

Investigators must also look at the Israeli military's practices, such as firing imprecise artillery and white phosphorous shells in densely populated Gaza, the groups have said.

[Rue]

does israel have something to hide? why not allow an investigation if it keeps saying it follows international law?

Tell you what. You have Hamas held to the same standard and I will call Benjie Netanyahu and arrange it on his side. Until then don't hold your breath.

By the way, if the IDF had something to deny do you think it would allow its soldiers to go to universities or other places and talk openly and candidly about their anxieties and reactions?

Did it not dawn on you the very reason you know about these comments is precisely because they are not hidden?

Here's another thing to question as you point the finger at Israel and lecture the IDF. What the soldiers say has been taken out of context. You will not understand what they were saying and why they were saying what they did until you read the entire words they stated and the full context in which it was presented.

What you have read are segmented phrases taken out of context.

When a soldier speaks often what they say is subjective and uncorroborated and simply their feelings being expressed-they feel guilty and remorseful for what they had to do-so they vent-to hold them verbatum to what they say and simply assume it is accurate and can be taken verbatum is with due respect illogical.

They are unloading guilt. Much of what they feel may be unwarranted and unfounded and until they can express it and talk it out, they then can not examine it and reality test it to see how much of it is accurate and how much of it is simply guilt distorting what they did.

You would understand that if you were a soldier who came back from such a spectacle. You are not. So please don't think you can understand a soldier or assume anything about them.

A soldier's words after war can only be understood by another soldier and in particular another soldier who witnessed what they did or something similiar to what they did.

May I respectfully suggest you do not try exploit the feelings of soldiers for your own political partisan exercise.

If war crimes have been committed, they can not be ascertained by you reading second hand, remorseful words of guilt ridden soldiers taken out of their original context.

By the way, has it not dawned on you yet if Israeli soldiers were the monsters some paint them to be, they would not speak this way?

Imagine that concept. Israeli soldiers have feelings and sorrow for what they have to do.

What next, does this mean Canadian or U.S. soldiers are not necessarily evil?

Where will this thread end?

Uh now.

[Rue]

By the way does anyone think Hamas has its "fighters" sit and openly discuss their regrets and sorrow at what they have to do?

Here's a hint-no.

[tango]

Tell you what. You have Hamas held to the same standard and I will call Benjie Netanyahu and arrange it on his side. Until then don't hold your breath.

By the way, if the IDF had something to deny do you think it would allow its soldiers to go to universities or other places and talk openly and candidly about their anxieties and reactions?

Did it not dawn on you the very reason you know about these comments is precisely because they are not hidden?

Here's another thing to question as you point the finger at Israel and lecture the IDF. What the soldiers say has been taken out of context. You will not understand what they were saying and why they were saying what they did until you read the entire words they stated and the full context in which it was presented.

What you have read are segmented phrases taken out of context.

When a soldier speaks often what they say is subjective and uncorroborated and simply their feelings being expressed-they feel guilty and remorseful for what they had to do-so they vent-to hold them verbatum to what they say and simply assume it is accurate and can be taken verbatum is with due respect illogical.

They are unloading guilt. Much of what they feel may be unwarranted and unfounded and until they can express it and talk it out, they then can not examine it and reality test it to see how much of it is accurate and how much of it is simply guilt distorting what they did.

You would understand that if you were a soldier who came back from such a spectacle. You are not. So please don't think you can understand a soldier or assume anything about them.

A soldier's words after war can only be understood by another soldier and in particular another soldier who witnessed what they did or something similiar to what they did.

May I respectfully suggest you do not try exploit the feelings of soldiers for your own political partisan exercise.

If war crimes have been committed, they can not be ascertained by you reading second hand, remorseful words of guilt ridden soldiers taken out of their original context.

By the way, has it not dawned on you yet if Israeli soldiers were the monsters some paint them to be, they would not speak this way?

Imagine that concept. Israeli soldiers have feelings and sorrow for what they have to do.

What next, does this mean Canadian or U.S. soldiers are not necessarily evil?

Where will this thread end?

Uh now.

By the way, has it not dawned on you yet if Israeli soldiers were the monsters some paint them to be, they would not speak this way?

You can review the thread to check if you like, Rue, but I know I have been very clear that I do not blame the soldiers. These who have spoken out are definitely heroes.

Soldiers follow orders. I blame the chain of command, wherever it goes to.

I blame whoever said all the people remaining in Gaza are terrorists because "They didn't leave". I blame the Commanders who gave the orders to clear houses by shooting everyone in them. I blame the Commanders who gave the orders to use white phosphorous on civilians, including children (because they are all "terrorists"). I blame those who gave the orders to bomb clearly identified UN buildings full of civilians.

And I blame the Israeli state for blockading and cruelly oppressing Gaza in the first place.

And I doubt that the Israeli soldiers are any longer free to "talk openly and candidly"

I think the Israeli definition of all people left in Gaza as "terrorists" is the crux of the issue, because it was used to justify methods that are illegal even in war, where civilians are involved.

I think an impartial international court has to rule on this 'definition' and its use in justifying actions that are illegal in war, and thus war crimes.

If Israel refuses to cooperate with an International investigation into its actions ... what does that say?

If Israel was confident in its decisions, then they would want to cooperate with the investigation to clear themselves.

I have no problem with holding Hamas to the same standard, either.

But it has to be recognized that the Israeli-controlled blockade of Gaza is an act of war itself.

There must be an independent international force used at the borders, but Israel has refused.

Edited April 20, 2009 by tango

[DogOnPorch]

Soldiers follow orders. I blame the chain of command, wherever it goes to.

I blame whoever said all the people remaining in Gaza are terrorists because "They didn't leave". I blame the Commanders who gave the orders to clear houses by shooting everyone in them. I blame the Commanders who gave the orders to use white phosphorous on civilians, including children (because they are all "terrorists"). I blame those who gave the orders to bomb clearly identified UN buildings full of civilians.

Oh, YAWN. Did any of these things really happen? If so...how do you know? Did Hamas tell you? The IDF? The Gnomes of Zurich? Mickey Mouse?

And I blame the Israeli state for blockading and cruelly oppressing Gaza in the first place.

Did they now? Why the hell would they do that?

And I doubt that the Israeli soldiers are any longer free to "talk openly and candidly".

So soldiers aren't allowed to talk anymore? Or are they? Cite?

If Israel was confident in its decisions, then they would want to cooperate with the investigation to clear themselves.

Co-operate with enemy forces? Get real.

I have no problem with holding Hamas to the same standard, either.

Really? When have you been holding this pack of Nazis to any sort of standards?

But it has to be recognized that the Israeli-controlled blockade of Gaza is an act of war itself.

Unlike the Arab-Israeli Wars which were what? Zionist aggression? What country was Gaza part of? What country was 'The West Bank' part of?

There must be an independent international force used at the borders, but Israel has refused.

It's been done. Nasser even kicked them out to clear the way for the Arab's 1967 invasion plans.

[dub]

Co-operate with enemy forces? Get real.

cooperating with the UN investigation headed by an experienced and well respected former international prosecutor who investigated former yugoslavia and rwanda and who happens to be jewish? this is the enemy?

you are so ridiculous.

[DogOnPorch]

cooperating with the UN investigation headed by an experienced and well respected former international prosecutor who investigated former yugoslavia and rwanda and who happens to be jewish? this is the enemy?

I'd suggest that Israel views anything w/ the tag "UN" as somewhat unfriendly. Or did you miss Ahmedadinnerjacket's performance yesterday? Hitler's Birthday. Oh, and guess what? Jews don't all 'stick together' just because they're Jewish, home-boy. Today is Holocaust Remembrance Day. I wonder what your pal has planned?

I am you are so ridiculous.

Fixed it for you once more.

Edited April 21, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[Borg]

I'd suggest that Israel views anything w/ the tag "UN" as somewhat unfriendly.

An incredibly accurate statement - and the Israeli view is well deserved as the UN has made some seriously one sided accusations.

I always hear about how Israel prevents aide from entering Gaza - not true by the way.

Why does no one ever blame Egypt for the same thing?

They also have a border with Gaza and it is closed up very tightly.

They want nothing to do with Gaza.

Borg

Edited April 21, 2009 by Borg

[tango]

I think the crux of the issue is Israeli powers-that-be defining everyone in Gaza as "terrorists", thus de-humanizing the population and 'justifying', in their minds and for their soldiers, use of illegal methods of war against civilians.

However I very much doubt that the UN and the world in general sees all Gazans or Palestinians as "terrorists".

Israel has to be accountable for its actions, imo, as we all do.

Edited April 21, 2009 by tango