Progressive Tory Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) There is a big defference between the unauthorized actions of Abu Graib, the allegations of Club Carribean and the state sponsored/approved brtuality of the world largest oppresser. How many for instance were charged with running down peaceful protester with tanks in Beijing? Abu Graib was authorized by the U.S. gov't but in terms of Canada, I'm referring to Bagram, Afghanistan, and the Conservatives turning a blind eye to the inhumane torture that was taking place, and allowing prisoners to be handed over to the camp knowing full well their fate. There's a very good documentary called 'Taxi to the Dark Side'. You won't be so quick to judge China after watching that. China may not be the worst place to live either in terms of human rights violations. Saudi Arabia is right up there. I was defending Bjre's right to an opinion, since she's actually been to China. Most of us haven't. As to media spin: How Harper controls the spin Edited March 12, 2009 by Progressive Tory Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
M.Dancer Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 Abu Graib was authorized by the U.S. gov't but in terms of Canada, I'm referring to Bagram, Afghanistan, and the Conservatives turning a blind eye to the inhumane torture that was taking place, and allowing prisoners to be handed over to the camp knowing full well their fate. So you are saying we should have interfered with Afghan justice? I think that would be violating their human rights if we did. In either case, it wasn't Canada doing those bad things.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Progressive Tory Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 It is hard and will take time for you to realize the truth even if you have a willing for that because you have exposed to the incorrect, misleading, selected information for too long time and used to trust those kind of things. "China has bad human right" has exactly the same purpose with "Iraq has WMD" Exactly. In fact the U.S. State dep't gave a list of the top ten human right's offenders, and China is not on the list, nor is Saudi Arabia. They include: North Korea, Burma, Iran, Syria, Zimbabwe, Cuba, Belarus, Uzbekistan, Eritrea and Sudan. Some are debatable. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
M.Dancer Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 Abu Graib was authorized by the U.S. gov't What? The jail itself? Are jails now immoral? Or are you refering to what happened inside, what came to light by are so called "government approved media" and the subsequent trials? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Progressive Tory Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 What? The jail itself? Are jails now immoral? Or are you refering to what happened inside, what came to light by are so called "government approved media" and the subsequent trials? Not the jail, but the torture. All claim they were following orders from the top, and I believe it. It was allowed to continue until the media found out and only then were the cries of 'inhumane treatment' heard. The trials were a coverup and only those following orders were actually charged, not those giving them. The U.S. can no longer take the high ground. There is a truth commission forming in the U.S. to study the inhumane treatment and rights' violations, at the hands of Americans, and many memos revealed that the gov't not only knew what was going on, but promoted it. Why Sen. Patrick Leahy Wants a "Truth Commission" The focus would be on alleged detainee torture, domestic surveillance and other Bush-era secrets The Case for Establishing a Truth Commission for Bush's Torture and Spying Crew Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
M.Dancer Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) Not the jail, but the torture. All claim they were following orders from the top, and I believe it. It was allowed to continue until the media found out and only then were the cries of 'inhumane treatment' heard. The trials were a coverup and only those following orders were actually charged, not those giving them. Of course you do. You are a Tr00ther and wear a tinfoil hat. Which is good cause you are a prime example of the fallacy of the state controlled media comtrolling the minds of others....if the media could do that, the tin foil hat crowd wouldn't exist...ergo, your argument fails. Never the less, the fact that it did come to light (by MSM...can't have it both ways. either they are part of the conspiracy or they ain't) that there was an investigation and charges laid etc etc....either means that due process has taken place or there is a vast government conspiracy that controls everything and only people like you are aware of it. And Occam's razor says.... Edited March 12, 2009 by M.Dancer Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Argus Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 I have no interest on that, I like Mao, he is an idealist, he is not perfect, Most people would choose different terms for a paedophile. but without him, there is no modern China Mao did not modernize China. He simply turned it into a large prison camp. China has a different style of democracy, China has NO kind of democracy. You apparently don't understand that word any more than you understand terms lke "freedom of speech". There is some government corruption exist in China. There is MASSIVE government corruption in China. Everyone who does business there has to bribe various levels of government. If you would be willing to wager on this, I would like to consider it, but that will depend on how much you are going to bet, because I am not a political guy, I have a dream to become rich and I would like to donate several schools to China if I have money. Ahh, what a wonderful immigrant. A credit to the system. He wants to become rich so .... he can help people in his old country. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 Argus, Ahh, what a wonderful immigrant. A credit to the system. He wants to become rich so .... he can help people in his old country. I agree - that this is pretty disheartening. Does this person consider himself Canadian or not, is my question. This certainly flies in the face of my experiences of immigrants who come to Canada to contribute, not to tell everybody how much better their home country is, and to contribute to them in any way they can. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 Or google Harper Torture I don't know what it is about squishy leftists like you but any time anyone dares to criticise any non-white, non-Christian culture, society or nation you start sweating and your hands start shaking, and you frantically jump in to make up stuff, however trivial, about western nations, or Israel (I'm sure that's coming any post now) in order to take the heat off the poor, helpless little brown skin types people are daring to criticise. The most appalling brutality takes place in China and you could not possibly care less because all you see is that they have brownish skin, and so no one should ever be able to criticise them. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 Your thoughts of China is based on the information obtained from the media that controlled by powerful people which is not acurite.The human right situation in China is not like what you think. Any conclusion you make is based on wrong information include the docuemts you love to read. What can I expect the result to be correct? It's sad that someone like you comes here from your dictatorship, and yet your mind is still back home, still in a cage. You've been taught that all those nasty things people say about China are wrong, and that cage is still wrapped around your head. You're in a free land now but you ignore all the evidence because you've been taught to distrust it all, and you never learned how to think for yourself. Nor do you seem much interested in trying. You are still a Chinese guy in a foreign land, looking around suspiciously, and looking to your "home" government for truth. Does anyone wonder why I question the loyalties of many of our immigrants and feel they should not be allowed to vote? This guy is a perfect example. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 Bjre, http://en.tibet328.cn/ Surely you can see the advantage of independent information ? If you suspected someone of providing misinformation, would you simply ask them and accept their response ? Your objectivity is very much in question here. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 Argus, It's sad that someone like you comes here from your dictatorship, and yet your mind is still back home, still in a cage. You've been taught that all those nasty things people say about China are wrong, and that cage is still wrapped around your head. You're in a free land now but you ignore all the evidence because you've been taught to distrust it all, and you never learned how to think for yourself. Nor do you seem much interested in trying. You are still a Chinese guy in a foreign land, looking around suspiciously, and looking to your "home" government for truth.Does anyone wonder why I question the loyalties of many of our immigrants and feel they should not be allowed to vote? This guy is a perfect example. Unfortunately, examples such as bjre give credence to your arguments. I don't think his attitude is a good one. I think that some of the changes proposed to the citizenship oath require a pledge for democracy too. That would prevent bjre from becoming a Canadian citizen, if he has any honesty in him ( or her ). Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bjre Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) Argus,Unfortunately, examples such as bjre give credence to your arguments. I don't think his attitude is a good one. I think that some of the changes proposed to the citizenship oath require a pledge for democracy too. That would prevent bjre from becoming a Canadian citizen, if he has any honesty in him ( or her ). So your so called "freedom of speech" means only when anyone agree with you can talk? So your so called "democracy" means only when anyone agree with you can vote? I think you are somewhat like a dictator, even want to do it on others thought. How hypocritical. Unfortunately, your method will not work, it can only increase the number of lies in this country. And refuse honest people who have integrity. Edited March 12, 2009 by bjre Quote "The more laws, the less freedom" -- bjre "There are so many laws that nearly everybody breaks some, even when you just stay at home do nothing, the only question left is how thugs can use laws to attack you" -- bjre "If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." -- Thomas Jefferson
M.Dancer Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 So your so called "freedom of speech" means only when anyone agree with you can talk?So your so called "democracy" means only when anyone agree with you can vote? Multiplicity isn't your forte, I assume. I'm pretty sure Hardner's ideas of freedom of speech means anyone, no matter how silly they are can speak and his idea of democracy are pretty liberal. But I think most citizens feel saddened that the goal of an immigrant is to exploit Canada so that the mother country will profit. You 're of course free to do it and Canadians are free to look at it and be turned off and disappointed. Most Canadians feel immigrants add to our country, you are the example of the ones who take away. That and the fact you come off like a Manchurian Candidate, brainwashed by the party, blind to the evil of totalitarian communism. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
bjre Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 If you suspected someone of providing misinformation, would you simply ask them and accept their response ? I did send something to Toronto Star years ago, I did not get any response. The media here does not work in that way. Quote "The more laws, the less freedom" -- bjre "There are so many laws that nearly everybody breaks some, even when you just stay at home do nothing, the only question left is how thugs can use laws to attack you" -- bjre "If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." -- Thomas Jefferson
bjre Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 But I think most citizens feel saddened that the goal of an immigrant is to exploit Canada so that the mother country will profit. You 're of course free to do it and Canadians are free to look at it and be turned off and disappointed. Most Canadians feel immigrants add to our country, you are the example of the ones who take away. That tax I pay to Canadian goverment every year is far above average. (And a very large part of it has been used in CAS and jail that I am not willing to). That and the fact you come off like a Manchurian Candidate, brainwashed by the party, blind to the evil of totalitarian communism. Actually I think you are an example of being brainwashed by the media here all your life that you have even no courage think about what could be wrong the information about China and many other topics. Quote "The more laws, the less freedom" -- bjre "There are so many laws that nearly everybody breaks some, even when you just stay at home do nothing, the only question left is how thugs can use laws to attack you" -- bjre "If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." -- Thomas Jefferson
M.Dancer Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 I did send something to Toronto Star years ago, I did not get any response.The media here does not work in that way. Your ignorance of how the media really works is not evidence of anything other than your ignorance of how the nedia really works. Most people who send unsolicitated material to any paper get no response. Perhaps 1 out of a 100 letters to the editor actually gets published at the star or the G&M. Generally the first lot of letters that are rejected are because the writer either makes no sense or because they are written so poorly the writer would look illiterate. They don't edit letters for spelling or grammer. The next lot that get rejected are those who are so out in let field that printing the letter would make them look like a fruitbat. The last lot to be rejected are those who would have been published but the editors were unable to verify the author really exists. There are of course other reasons...the letter's subject is boring or the aurthor makes a claim but does nothing to substantiate it or offers proof that is weak. My guess is if your posts here are any indication, your letter was rejected it was because your proofs were weak, your arguments were incoherent and your letter was written poorly. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 (And a very large part of it has been used in CAS and jail that I am not willing to). Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Michael Hardner Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 bjre, So your so called "freedom of speech" means only when anyone agree with you can talk?So your so called "democracy" means only when anyone agree with you can vote? I think you are somewhat like a dictator, even want to do it on others thought. How hypocritical. Unfortunately, your method will not work, it can only increase the number of lies in this country. And refuse honest people who have integrity. People can say whatever they want. They can even say that they don't believe in democracy, or free speech. Now, do we want to import people who are NOT citizens, that don't believe in democracy and free speech ? It's a tricky question. In fact, the people of Canada could conceivably decide to surrender their freedoms under the charter of rights, under the right conditions. However. I would say that you have to live under democracy to criticize it properly, and you are ample evidence of my belief. If Morris started writing about his desire to reduce our rights, I would give it more credence than if you did so, simply because you don't understand these freedoms. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bjre Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) People can say whatever they want. They can even say that they don't believe in democracy, or free speech. Now, do we want to import people who are NOT citizens, that don't believe in democracy and free speech ? It's a tricky question. I did not say I don't believe in democracy, I believe the democracy has more than one style. And I think democracy can not solve all problems. And I think democracy sometimes can be low-efficient and high-cost. In fact, the people of Canada could conceivably decide to surrender their freedoms under the charter of rights, under the right conditions. However. I would say that you have to live under democracy to criticize it properly, and you are ample evidence of my belief. Do you mean if anyone don't agree with you means he did not "criticize it properly" and should be banned? If Morris started writing about his desire to reduce our rights, I would give it more credence than if you did so, simply because you don't understand these freedoms. I did not want to reduce our rights. I said now lies are not as easily spread as previously, because we have more means for people to share ideas, like internet can give us more chance to find information out of the mainstream media, and youtube make it possible for many people see the truth. That can help a lot in prevent making the incident in Lasha last year into another lie like Tiananman 1989. (actually I was a university student in China at that time). It is freedom of speech make this happen, make us somewhat get rid of media brainwash. That is the reason some people want to control youtube now. I like freedom of speech, I like idea of human right. I don't like lies on freedom of speech, I don't like lies on human right or use it for launching wars that actually kill lots of people include the people of the country who launch it. Edited March 12, 2009 by bjre Quote "The more laws, the less freedom" -- bjre "There are so many laws that nearly everybody breaks some, even when you just stay at home do nothing, the only question left is how thugs can use laws to attack you" -- bjre "If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." -- Thomas Jefferson
Michael Hardner Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 bjre, I did not say I don't believe in democracy, I believe the democracy has more than one style.And I think democracy can not solve all problems. And I think democracy sometimes can be low-efficient and high-cost. So what DO you think ? Freedom of speech or not ? Answer the question. You don't think Canada has freedom of speech, so would you be ok if the government unilaterally took back rights guaranteed under the Charter ? Such as the right to free speech as it is currently defined ? QUOTE (Michael Hardner @ Mar 12 2009, 10:55 AM) *In fact, the people of Canada could conceivably decide to surrender their freedoms under the charter of rights, under the right conditions. However. I would say that you have to live under democracy to criticize it properly, and you are ample evidence of my belief. Do you mean if anyone don't agree with you means he he did not "criticize it properly" and should be banned? I don't care if people agree with me or not, generally. But a majority of bjres coming to Canada would be a problem, I think. Once the government determined that you were ok with censorship, work camps, capital punishment for secret reasons then we'd be done for. I did not want to reduce our rights.I said now lies are not as easily spread as previously, because we have more means for people to share ideas, like internet can give us more chance to find information out of the mainstream media, and youtube make it possible for many people see the truth. That can help a lot in prevent making the incident in Lasha last year into another lie like Tiananman 1989. (actually I was a university student in China at that time). It is freedom of speech make this happen, make us somewhat get rid of media brainwash. That is the reason some people want to control youtube now. And the reason you can't do a web search for 'Tianaman 1989' in China. I like freedom of speech, I like idea of human right. I don't like lies on freedom of speech, I don't lies on human right or use it for launching wars that actually kill lots of people include the people of the country who launch it. So you don't like China then ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bjre Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 I don't care if people agree with me or not, generally. But a majority of bjres coming to Canada would be a problem, I think. Once the government determined that you were ok with censorship, work camps, capital punishment for secret reasons then we'd be done for. So actually you fear people disagree with you. There needn't majority of immigrant comes, just more freedom of speech is enough to make more people disagree with you. And the reason you can't do a web search for 'Tianaman 1989' in China. I would like a try next time I visit china, I believe I will find thousands if not millions of results. I don't deny some of information is very hard to be found in China, so is Canada, US and others. So you don't like China then ? I like China of cause. It is not perfect. Is Canada perfect? There are things that I don't like in China. However I like China as my motherland. It maintains nearly 2 digit economic growth for 30 years, did Canada make this? Do you think Harper can do this for even one year? At least in this area current Chinese government did it better than Canada government. Quote "The more laws, the less freedom" -- bjre "There are so many laws that nearly everybody breaks some, even when you just stay at home do nothing, the only question left is how thugs can use laws to attack you" -- bjre "If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." -- Thomas Jefferson
M.Dancer Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 It maintains nearly 2 digit economic growth for 30 years, did Canada make this? Easy to do when you have no environmental concerns or when you start from a 19th industrial base. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Michael Hardner Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 Really, bjre, why did you come ? The economy isn't as good, and Canada isn't better than China - at least insofar as they're both 'not perfect'. So why come to Canada ? Maybe you didn't have a choice... Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bjre Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 Easy to do when you have no environmental concerns or when you start from a 19th industrial base. There are lots of developing countries, show me another that can do this. Quote "The more laws, the less freedom" -- bjre "There are so many laws that nearly everybody breaks some, even when you just stay at home do nothing, the only question left is how thugs can use laws to attack you" -- bjre "If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." -- Thomas Jefferson
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