bjre Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) CAS is more harmful to children than physical discipline by parents Don't bother quoting the bible. It is an ancient, outdated book of nonsense. I won't take anything from the bible as a serious argument, particularly when it advocates child abuse. Physical punishment is not necessary for raising children. Physical punishment doesn't teach a child anything about appropriate behaviour; instead it teaches them to fear people who are bigger and stronger than them. Physical punishment is a popular method widely used by parents for thousands of years everywhere in the world. Some of the people cite the disadvantage of it. So the study comes. Politicians find the topic can bring them vote, Crown find it can bring more easy cases to justice system. CAS (Children’s care) find it can bring them a industry level income. So the legislation comes after media wide reported a few cases to grant CAS to watch people and search for case. Now there are nearly 30,000 kids are in care by CAS in Ontario, one out of 100 kids. This brings CAS more than $1.2 billion a year, that is $100 from everybody every year through tax. Many kids are separated from their parents by CAS. Many families were run out of their money during the court process, many families were destroyed, may kids become without parents or with single parent. A recent report shows 90 kids were die in the care of CAS in Ontario. The death rate is one out of every 300 kids die yearly in care of CAS include high rate of suicide, homicide, and accidental death. http://www.thestar.com/article/591523 A report from BC shows kids in care of CAS has only 24% can graduate from high school, while 36% end up in correction system. http://www.lawsociety.bc.ca/publications_f...blic-forum.html From the statistics, we can see it is very clear CAS does not make child grow well. Why children are taken into care by CAS, it is very often because parents want to physical discipline kids. Parents were educating kids. Let’s suppose the physical discipline is not good, what can be the solution, ask help from CAS? If kids get a small wound from discipline, they will get a lifetime great hurt from CAS. Is the physical discipline real evil? There are studies on that: “Nonabusive Physical Punishment and Child Behavior among African-American Children: A Systematic Review” http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender...mp;blobtype=pdf “UC Berkeley study finds no lasting harm among adolescents from moderate spanking earlier in childhood” http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/release...8/24_spank.html However these serious studies were strongly argued by others who can take money from the industry such as CAS or who can get benefit from that or who did not make serious study based on real statistics. Actually there are many such studies in 1970s. However, we cannot find most of them from internet because the internet is not popular at that time. Inadequate use of physical punishment is not correct and may lead to harm, however, this method should not be ban because of a few real abuse cases. Just like when we heard there are traffic accident on the road, shall we ban all the express way, all the highway and all the road, or shall we ban all the cars, airplanes? We know electricity can be dangerous to people, shall we ban it? So the correct manor is study how to use physical discipline and in which case it is harmful and educate parents instead of bully on them and use punishment to parents first. Parents do physical discipline is with their best hope to children, with love, and with responsibility, while CAS does their business with a standard procedure like robot with no love, no consideration of children’s well being, and children’s future. The truth is CAS is the real evil to children, not the physical discipline. Edited February 28, 2009 by bjre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjre Posted February 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 With 94% of American parents spanking their children by the time they are 3 or 4 years old (From Straus, M. A., & Stewart, J. H. (1999). Corporal punishment by American parents: National data on prevalence, chronicity, severity, and duration, in relation to child and family characteristics. Clinical Child and Family Psychology Review, 2, 55–70. http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP36.pdf ) we did not find a statistics said the in US 1/300 children die every year or only 24% graduate from high school like CAS did in Canada. Here are some paper that have concluded that corporal punishment is both effective and desirable Baumrind, D. (1996). A blanket injunction against disciplinary use of spanking is not warranted by the data. Pediatrics, 98(4, Pt. 2), 828–831. Baumrind, D. (1996). The discipline controversy revisited. Family Relations, 45, 405–415. Baumrind, D. (1997). Necessary distinctions. Psychological Inquiry, 8, 176–182. Larzelere, R. E. (1996). A review of the outcomes of parental use of nonabusive or customary physical punishment. Pediatrics, 98(4, Pt. 2), 824–828. Larzelere, R. E. (2000). Child outcomes of non-abusive and customary physical punishment by parents: An updated literature review. Unpublished manuscript, University of Nebraska Medical Center, Omaha, and Father Flanagan’s Boys’ Home, Boys Town, NE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjre Posted February 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Russell Peters - Beating Your Kids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Progressive Tory Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 http://www.thestar.com/article/591523Parents do physical discipline is with their best hope to children, with love, and with responsibility, while CAS does their business with a standard procedure like robot with no love, no consideration of children’s well being, and children’s future. The truth is CAS is the real evil to children, not the physical discipline. Wow. A lot to digest here. However, you are right and wrong. I know the Reform Party opposed the UN's mandate on child abuse. You can read it in Hansard. They felt that 'spanking' should be at the discretion of parents. That's certainly debatable. However, while I have many concerns about CAS, simply spanking a child does not mean they are automatically taken away. In fact, most criticism is that they don't react soon enough. I do agree that foster homes are an issue and with fewer choices, I think the screening system has become lax. In many cases the children might fare better with abusive parents, but should have better options. I can speak from another issue that I have become a strong advocate for, and that's kinship fostering. The CAS has got to make it easier for family members to provide the foster care, be it temporary or pemanent; so that the children don't lose contact with their extended families. Foster homes often mean they are not just taken away from parents, but also cousins, grandparents, aunts, uncles, siblings, friends, etc. More should be done to make kinship a viable option. I am raising a grandson who would have been put into the fostercare system, had my husband and I not stepped up. This saved the system thousands of dollars a year, but more importantly enures that he is in a loving home and part of a larger family. In Ontario foster parents receive about $ 1,000.00 per month plus clothing, recreation, respite, etc. My grandson is severely disabled, so a foster parent would receive more than $ 1,500.00 per. In contrast, kinship foster parents receive a mere $ 230.00 to cover, food, clothing, etc. with no bonuses or extra funds for disabled charges. My husband and I would do it for free, but unfortunately many families simply cannot. One grandmother in my group lost her home and was forced to move into a small apartment when she agreed to raise her two grandsons. She works but now had to pay daycare. Another grandfather tried to move his three grandchildren into a one bedroom apartment. His CAS worker said he would need a bigger place, but there was no way he could afford to. The kids went into fostercare. The entire system needs an overhaul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Progressive Tory Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Here are some paper that have concluded that corporal punishment is both effective and desirable I don't care how many papers say it's OK to hit children, it simply is not. For those who advocate an occasional spank, there are many who don't feel that they should stop there. Spanking usually occurs when the parent has lost control of the situation and unleashes their anger on the child. This gives children the control. Does Spanking Really Work? "When it comes to kids, the subject of spanking is not so much a raging debate as it is a perpetually unresolved one. There’s a lot of emotion on the subject, but not a whole lot of reasoning. From a psychological point of view, however, there is compelling evidence as to why physical punishment, in general, is not appropriate for children. Why? Well, for one thing, it can easily turn into abuse. Child abuse occurs when an adult releases his or her frustrations and anger upon the child. In other words, the child becomes part punching bag, and part recipient of a punishment. In the heat of the moment, there is no way to control or monitor when (and if) the adult crosses that line. I’ve even had parents tell me that it “made them feel better” to spank their child. Oops! See what I mean?" It does not set a good example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjre Posted February 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 I don't care how many papers say it's OK to hit children, ... I would rather show some respect to scientific methods. Does Spanking Really Work? This is typical article without supporting data like statistics. Any theory without supporting data has no difference with guess. As post #2 said, there are 94% of American parents spanking their children by the time they are 3 or 4 years old, if it does not work, why so many people can not find it? Are they all fools? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjre Posted February 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Here are some comments from internet. Of course corporal punishment should return for the simple reason (for any who have experienced it) it works. However, we are so deep into the grip of Political Correctness that that once respected quality of common sense is all but extinct. What really is puzzling is how these PC idiots get to write the rulebook when the vast majority of people (voters) think otherwise??David Edwards, UK No one can say or do anything to rowdy kids these days - they have no respect for adults and have the protection of 'human rights' to hide behind to cause as much trouble as they like. If there is the threat of punishment, then they might keep their cheeky mouths shut.Binky Bumble, England Today's classroom discipline is an unfair burden on both the teachers and the majority of pupils. What many people forget is that there are people suffering because without the cane, or any reasonable alternative, innocent children are missing out on their education because no one is stopping a few rowdies from running riot.Kim, England Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melanie_ Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Physical punishment is a popular method widely used by parents for thousands of years everywhere in the world. Just because something has been done for thousands of years doesn’t mean it is a good thing. Women were treated as property for thousands of years – does that make it ok? Slavery was part of many cultures for thousands of years – does that make it ok? People have been persecuted because of their beliefs or skin colour or sexual orientation for thousands of years – does that make it ok? Your argument seems to be based on children being removed from their homes because of physical punishment. It isn’t illegal in Canada to spank your child, so a simple spanking isn’t going to result in CAS intervention. The studies you cite all talk about non-abusive discipline, which is acceptable under our criminal code. (Whether or not it should be is another argument.) But, there is a line that can’t be crossed, and that is when CAS gets involved. This statement from you Why children are taken into care by CAS, it is very often because parents want to physical discipline kids. Parents were educating kids. Let’s suppose the physical discipline is not good, what can be the solution, ask help from CAS? If kids get a small wound from discipline, they will get a lifetime great hurt from CAS. raises red flags all around. What is a “small wound”? It sounds like you are talking about an unreasonable level of violence towards a child, and if so, the child needs to be protected. This reminds me of another thread we had some time ago. The poster came back and deleted all their original comments, but bjre’s writing style is very similar to that poster, bobz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjre Posted February 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Physical punishment is not necessary for raising children. Physical punishment doesn't teach a child anything about appropriate behaviour; instead it teaches them to fear people who are bigger and stronger than them. It isn’t illegal in Canada to spank your child, so a simple spanking isn’t going to result in CAS intervention. The studies you cite all talk about non-abusive discipline, which is acceptable under our criminal code. (Whether or not it should be is another argument.) I saw a positive change from your comment, at least this time you admit that spanking is not illegal. CAS is evil is because it runs under its own interest, it does not always do it according to law. I have heard a case that a child wants to leave family himself and he did it with the help of CAS. In another case that CAS works base on evidence that does not exist. http://vimeo.com/766883?pg=embed&sec=766883 raises red flags all around. What is a “small wound”? It sounds like you are talking about an unreasonable level of violence towards a child, and if so, the child needs to be protected. So, that is the reason the kids should be sent to hell? If you find there are mosquitoes near your kids, will you send them to a place that has no mosquitoes but has snakes? CAS does not care about kids, they care only about money, they try to find every chance to take more kids into their “care” so that they can “protect” them and ask for “protecting fee” from taxpayers. ($87 a day for a kid that can be taken into CAS’s care). After CAS get that money they want, most children are ignored, their fate are totally unpredictable. That is the reason death rate of CAS in care kids are so high and the high school graduated rate is so low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Progressive Tory Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Here are some comments from internet. Binky Bumble? You've got to be kidding me. I'll think I'll go pound on my grandson now because someone named 'Binky Bumble' says it's OK. I think you need to define what you think corporal punishment of children should be. Are you talking about a little spank, when a parent loses control, or a beating? If the CAS remove children because of abuse, there is abuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Progressive Tory Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 After CAS get that money they want, most children are ignored, their fate are totally unpredictable. That is the reason death rate of CAS in care kids are so high and the high school graduated rate is so low. I'm pretty sure that CAS doesn't run on a profit and most social workers are overworked and underpaid. That's a huge part of the problem. However, your discussion is twofold. You're addressing corporal punishment for children, seemingly justifying it, because they are no better off with CAS. No child should be abused by either. Is this from personal experience? I just wonder where you're going with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjre Posted February 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) If the CAS remove children because of abuse, there is abuse. British Columbia Bullies Family British Columbia child protectors took baby Bethany from parents Paul and Zabeth Bayne claiming shaken baby. They placed their other two children with their grandparents under a supervision agreement. On May 19 and 20, 2008, while that arrangement was in force, Global TV aired two stories on the family. You can view the second video on the Bayne blog. Three weeks later the ministry reneged on their agreement with the family and seized the two children still in their custody. They have not been returned. http://fightingunjustsocialserviceethics.b...ng-parents.html Child Abusers or Caring Parents? http://fightingunjustsocialserviceethics.b...ng-parents.html The above video aired on Global TV, May 20, 2008. Since its airing, a signed agreement with the Ministry of Children and Family Development from May 16, 2008 returning the two older children to the parents under a supervision order was canceled, as the Ministry felt that the parents had breached the mediation agreement by involving themselves and the children in an interview with Global TV. In fact though the interview was recorded the day prior to their mediation on May 15, 2008 and thus impossible for any breach. On May 19, 2008 Global TV did its first story on the family with the above follow up. As a result the two older children who were already in a supervised living arrangement with the parents in the home of the Grandparents found themselves facing two police officers, the Director and social worker for the Ministry of Children and Family on June 12, 2008. The family was in the middle of birthday celebrations for the second child who was turning three and excited to have his other Grandpa there as well, who does not live in the area. Amid tears and screams from the children and family, those in power removed the two boys from their loving home in a violent and traumatic manner. Statements from the Ministry's lawyer concerning their actions was that it was a "control issue". The Ministry has shifted the responsibility for their actions to their Practical Analyst with Service Quality. They say that the orders for immediate removal came from this source. Further research and inquiry by the mother found that the Practical Analyst did not have direct authority. They deal at arms length and only advise what fits the law. They hold no power to make decisions. She was told the decision in fact came from the Director and the Social Worker. The Bayne family currently has eight completed and submitted experts reports that confirm their innocence to any abuse. These experts include: ophthalmologists, neuroradiologists, abuse specialist pediatricians, forensic pathologists, hematologists and biomechanics. They have ten more specialists that are currently reviewing their medical records and will be submitting their reviews shortly. Regardless of the above submissions, the countless character reference letters, the petitions from the community and the obvious bond between the children and their parents, the Ministry has maintained its position. They require the parents to admit to guilt and if they don't do this, it is viewed as being uncooperative, as being a sign of denial and thus guilt and the actions of parents that are not truly interested in the best for their children. At present the three children reside in foster care and are showing the effects of this prolonged separation. The Ministry has given the family one choice - trial. So in effect we seem to have the makings of yet another Goudge Inquiry in British Columbia. Edited February 28, 2009 by bjre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjre Posted February 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 I'm pretty sure that CAS doesn't run on a profit and most social workers are overworked and underpaid. That's a huge part of the problem. They will face lay off if they did not taking enough children into "care": http://www.hastingscas.org/uploaded/media/...M%20deficit.pdf Hastings CAS projects $2.1M deficit Lack of provincial support blamed The Hastings Children's Aid Society is projecting a $2.1 million deficit by the end of this fiscal year -- a fact it attributes to a ck of provincial support. While the shortfall won't stop the agency from delivering essential services, executive director Len Kennedy said it will put more pressure on staff who oversee hundreds of kids in care. "On a couple of occasions this year we've not replaced a person or delayed the replacement to save a few months of salary," he said. "We'll continue to exercise all diligent measure to try and reduce the deficit, but there isn't a whole lot we can go after because we are delivering mandatory services." At a board meeting Thursday, finance director Mark Stevens presented a report showing that the agency's projected expenditures for the 2008-09 fiscal year are $32.5 million. Yet, based on the number of children it cares for, the agency is only eligible for $31.1 million of provincial funding -- resulting in a $1.4 million deficit for the year. However, the CAS is still carrying deficits from the previous two years -- nearly $266,000 from 2006-07 and nearly $468,000 from 2007-08. It adds up to $2.1 million, a number that is significant, but not surprising, Kennedy said, given the province's flawed funding formula. He said the province provides Children's Aid Societies with $87 a day for each child in its care. But additional money is needed to pay for such things as therapy and counselling for children, who often come into its care following reports of abuse. During the meeting, Kennedy noted to board members that 38 other Ontario children's aid societies sent firstquarter financial reports to the province. Together, those agencies were expecting an accumulated deficit of about $38 million. "Our scenario is in keeping with what other agencies are reporting at this time," he said. Last March, the province provided an extra $800,000 to the Hastings CAS to reduce a previously anticipated $1.3 million deficit, just before the fiscal year ended. Kennedy does not know whether a similar rollout will be offered this spring, but said the agency is talking with the province about raising the funds. "We're hoping there will be some relief again," he said. "Our position is these are the costs of delivering the mandatory service of child welfare in Hastings County. Those costs continue to be above the level of funding we receive, but we don't have any choice about the service that must be delivered." He stressed, however, that the $2.1 million figure is only a projection. If more kids come into its care over the course of the year, the CAS would be eligible for more funding, Kennedy said, but the money won't be enough to erase a deficit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjre Posted February 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) I am raising a grandson who would have been put into the fostercare system, had my husband and I not stepped up. This saved the system thousands of dollars a year, but more importantly enures that he is in a loving home and part of a larger family.In Ontario foster parents receive about $ 1,000.00 per month plus clothing, recreation, respite, etc. My grandson is severely disabled, so a foster parent would receive more than $ 1,500.00 per. In contrast, kinship foster parents receive a mere $ 230.00 to cover, food, clothing, etc. with no bonuses or extra funds for disabled charges. My husband and I would do it for free, but unfortunately many families simply cannot. It is very kind of you think of country and save money for other tax payers. However, your kindness will not help, CAS still take the same amount of money from government no matter you get it or not, let's see where CAS spend money they take. Ontario children's aid societies misspent money, auditors allege CBC News http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/200...ildrensaid.html Luxury vehicles for executives, trips abroad and personal trainers are just a few of the "questionable" expenditures made by certain children's aid societies in Ontario, the provincial auditor general says. CBC News has obtained a final draft of the province's first value-for-money audit of children's aid societies, scheduled to be released next week. The audit alleges some employees improperly spent money on cars, travel and even fitness.The audit alleges some employees improperly spent money on cars, travel and even fitness. (CBC) The report focuses on four agencies — in Thunder Bay, Toronto, the Peel region and the York region — that account for almost 25 per cent, or $310 million, of the $1.42 billion spent annually on all 53 children's aid societies in the province. The report details a number of troubling expenditures, including: * Senior managers receiving high-end SUVs to use for work — worth tens of thousands more than the maximum allowances that provincial deputy ministers are allowed. * Scores of trips by the children being cared for and staff members to the Caribbean. * A week-long stay at resort. However, the report does not name the agencies in connection with the alleged actions — leaving it unclear which of the children's aid societies are at issue. Retired homicide detective Michael Davis said the report makes him angry and disappointed. He has reviewed the deaths of hundreds of children who died while in the care of children's aid societies. "I think the public is going to be outraged when they hear this," said Davis. "When they look at these perks being used by children's aid societies." Agencies saw findings, hired public relations firm When CBC News called several of the agencies, they said all queries had to go through the Ontario Association of the Children's Aid Societies. The association, however, refused to comment on the report before its official release. Ontario Minister of Children and Youth Services Mary Anne Chambers stonewalled reporters when peppered with questions about the CBC report on Thursday afternoon. "I'm going to wait until the auditor general releases his report," Chambers told reporters, refusing to "speculate" on a document she said she hadn't seen. However, the report contains responses to the auditor general's findings from all four children's aid societies and the provincial body responsible for all the agencies. And the CBC has also obtained an internal document showing that an outside public relations agency has been hired to develop a response to the damaging report and "to preserve the reputation of children's aid societies and their leadership." Luxury SUVs among agency's 50-vehicle fleet At one of the four agencies, the auditors said they made a number of disturbing discoveries regarding the massive fleet of company vehicles and improper use by staff. The report states that senior management staff received luxury vehicles, including two SUVs worth $53,000 and $59,000. It notes that not even the province's deputy ministers, who have a maximum allowance of $30,000, receive such expensive cars. Those two SUVs were among a fleet of 50 vehicles owned or leased by one agency. But that auditor found that almost half of those vehicles were underused, logging fewer than 10,000 kilometres a year. Some of them even were below 4,000 kilometres a year, the report says. Those numbers were far below usage levels of above 22,000 kilometres per year considered economical by the Ministry of Transportation. There was one instance at that agency where an individual not only had exclusive use of a society-owned vehicle but also received a tax-free allowance of $600 per month for use of his personal vehicle. Personal trips, all-inclusive resorts The auditor general alleges in the report that an employee at one agency made a personal trip on the taxpayers' tab. In that case, a senior staff member allegedly attended an international conference in Beijing, China that was "unrelated to his duties or society business," the report states. At the same society, the report notes that an executive assistant and executive director travelled to a conference in Buenos Aires, Argentina. The three other agencies were also found to have scores of unusual trips abroad, with a number of "questionable" trips by children and staff members to the Caribbean. There were a number of instances where the agencies bought return tickets for children to visit families in the Caribbean, the report states. One of the societies paid $1,700 for a seven-day all-inclusive trip to a resort in St. Martin and another $4,000 one-week trip to St. Lucia for a caseworker to accompany a child returning to their biological family. Auditor questions funding Other findings allege the societies aren't following the law to protect children. In one-third of cases reviewed, initial visits to children at risk were late by an average of three weeks. Some children weren't seen at all. In the report, the auditor asks why government funding for Ontario's children's aid societies has more than doubled over six years, while the number of families served increased by 40 per cent. Edited February 28, 2009 by bjre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melanie_ Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 I saw a positive change from your comment, at least this time you admit that spanking is not illegal.CAS is evil is because it runs under its own interest, it does not always do it according to law. I have heard a case that a child wants to leave family himself and he did it with the help of CAS. In another case that CAS works base on evidence that does not exist. http://vimeo.com/766883?pg=embed&sec=766883 So, that is the reason the kids should be sent to hell? If you find there are mosquitoes near your kids, will you send them to a place that has no mosquitoes but has snakes? CAS does not care about kids, they care only about money, they try to find every chance to take more kids into their “care” so that they can “protect” them and ask for “protecting fee” from taxpayers. ($87 a day for a kid that can be taken into CAS’s care). After CAS get that money they want, most children are ignored, their fate are totally unpredictable. That is the reason death rate of CAS in care kids are so high and the high school graduated rate is so low. No, I didn't change my position at all. Just because spanking is legal doesn't mean it is an appropriate form of discipline. And what you are talking about isn't spanking, its child abuse. You are talking about physically wounding a child, to the point that the authorities have to intervene. They don't get involved if a parent has just swatted their child on the bum. The first case you mention, of a child wanting to leave the parents and doing so with the help of CAS... this happens all the time. If a child is in an abusive family, they often want out, and seek help from CAS. Thats what CAS is there for. The second example you gave, the video of "Justice Jack", does nothing to help your argument at all. Did you watch that video? Never once does he deny abusing his children. He just talks about the flaws in the court system, and admits to tampering with evidence. Do you have any actual information about what he is alleged to have done, or what evidence there was against him? How do you know his children aren't better off somewhere else? Some of the allegations involved a child having scars from a shotgun blast, and another child, 4 years old, having a sexual encounter with a banana. He doesn't deny either of these things, he just talks about how the court transcripts have errors in recording the testimony. You've said that the rate of death of children in care is high, but have you compared that rate of death to the rate of death of abused children who are not discovered by the system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melanie_ Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Also, I've read through your other posts, bjre, and of course there is a need to investigate the allegations being made. If funds are being misspent, I expect there will be changes made, and hopefully better safeguards put into place. But that doesn't mean we get rid of the system altogether. Children are being abused, and as a society we can't just turn our back on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 I don't care how many papers say it's OK to hit children, it simply is not.For those who advocate an occasional spank, there are many who don't feel that they should stop there. Spanking usually occurs when the parent has lost control of the situation and unleashes their anger on the child. This gives children the control. Does Spanking Really Work? "When it comes to kids, the subject of spanking is not so much a raging debate as it is a perpetually unresolved one. There’s a lot of emotion on the subject, but not a whole lot of reasoning. From a psychological point of view, however, there is compelling evidence as to why physical punishment, in general, is not appropriate for children. Why? Well, for one thing, it can easily turn into abuse. Child abuse occurs when an adult releases his or her frustrations and anger upon the child. In other words, the child becomes part punching bag, and part recipient of a punishment. In the heat of the moment, there is no way to control or monitor when (and if) the adult crosses that line. I’ve even had parents tell me that it “made them feel better” to spank their child. Oops! See what I mean?" It does not set a good example. All worth repeating, since study after study that has been done all over the world shows the same lessons about the effects of spanking and corporal punishment on children: depending on their personalities, the children will either respond in an aggressive manner, and grow up to be brutalizers themselves, or if they tend to be quiet, fearful children, they will become more fearful and withdrawn. Both conditions I would argue are desired by authoritarian thinkers, like the ones who dominate conservative and religious right policy-making. Authoritarians don't want a society of independent men and women -- instead they desire a structured, well ordered society, where people don't object or question lessons learned -- instead they want a few future leaders (the abusers of tomorrow) and a large class of followers, who are so beaten down by verbal and physical abuse, that they will just follow orders without much question, or even giving much thought to whether things could be different, let alone better! We hear from the Christian Right endlessly, that the family should not be interfered with by government, and it's not an accident that they also advocate a return to the old patriarchal ways of the man being the head of the household. He can be the little pissant dictator in his own home, and act as the proxy for both the Church and the State authorities, and make it easier for them to exert the power they desire over larger issues of society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjre Posted February 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) Also, I've read through your other posts, bjre, and of course there is a need to investigate the allegations being made. If funds are being misspent, I expect there will be changes made, and hopefully better safeguards put into place. But that doesn't mean we get rid of the system altogether. Children are being abused, and as a society we can't just turn our back on them. Let's read a book: Wounded Innocents : The Real Victims of the War Against Child Abuse by Richard Wexler http://www.prometheusbooks.com/index.php?m...9c0aece49d9c0ba http://www.amazon.com/Wounded-Innocents-Vi...d/dp/0879759364 The war against child abuse has become a war against children. Every year, hundreds of children die, thousands more are forced to live with strangers, and countless American families are torn apart. This is called a "child-protection system." While the problem of child abuse is serious and real, journalist Richard Wexler charges that our solutions to the problem have actually made it worse - in fact, hurting the very children that they were intended to help. Wexler reinforces his arguments with horrifying descriptions of children summarily removed from their homes, of families shattered because of false reports, and of children whose parents are guilty of nothing more than poverty being thrust into the maelstrom of the chaotic foster-care program. He writes of severly abused children - those needing the most help - whose cases are ignored because the system diverts scarce resources to trivial or unfounded cases, and who are reinjured, sometimes fatally after their plight has been called to the attention of authorities. Wounded Innocents illustrates how well-meaning efforts to help children have gone terribly wrong and how the current child-protection system desperately needs to be replaced with one that offers real help and real hope to abused and neglected children. "In his most excellent book, Wexler reports that sexual abuse of foster children by other foster children is epidemic and grossly underreported. A study found that 28 percent of children in Baltimore foster homes had been abused. A former New York Child Protective Services worker is quoted by Wexler as saying, 'Foster care is like Russian roulette.' . . . a well-documented, eye-opening expose of America's child protection system, which despite good intentions, creates more problems than it solves." Edited February 28, 2009 by bjre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xul Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 The war against child abuse has become a war against children. On this point, I generally agree with you. Rashly and simply taking children away and jailing their parents mostly have not positive effects to solve the problem. It just continues the tradition of politicians who deeply believe in that taking away children from "uncivilized" environment into a "civilized" environment to teach them is a goodness to these children . But they are wrong, just as they was wrong. But on the other hand, I strongly disagree with your other points. I don't think without spanking (saying nothing of "physical punishment") parents can not teach and correct their children. My son is 6. I have never spanked him but he is still pretty good in his classmates and, of course, my parents have never spanked me either but I'm also well in my peers. Most spanking cases happened are just because the parents don't know the ways and skills to teach their kids without spanking. It is why I think simply taking away their children is not a good way to both parents and children. Of course bruise on arms and arse are harmful to children, but tearing off a child from his or her parents may be more harmful on their mental world then a physical bruise does. I think sending a teacher to teach and instruct parents the skills of how to teach their kids without spanking are moe effective than sending a policman to handcuff them(especially in front of their kids) . Teaching kids by Spanking is just as America bombing Afghanistan. It may work at first time, then effectiveness bates on second and third times, and eventually becomes effectless routine just for people thinks doing something might be better than doing nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melanie_ Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 There are problems with the system, bjre. That isn’t in question. But you are saying that we should do away with the system altogether rather than fixing it. Maybe you need to look beyond your personal issue, which seems to be wanting to beat your child without interference from those who think s/he needs protection. You’ve defended a man (“Justice Jack”) who has been convicted of sexually abusing his 4 year old child. This case has been in and out of court since 1992, according to the video – 15 years of the child saying she was sexually abused by her father, and him saying the court didn’t record the information correctly. You would protect that father from any scrutiny, and allow him to continue molesting his daughter without any interference from CAS. You strike me as someone who got caught doing something very wrong, and is now trying to shift the blame to anyone else rather than own up to it. You’re advocating doing away with all child protection services so that you can be abusive without having to account for your actions. Even if you think your child isn’t in need of protection, how can you deny that there are many other children that are? Here’s a link to info about child abuse in Canada. Any allegation of child abuse must be investigated; its more important to ensure the child is safe than to ensure the parent isn’t embarrassed. If the parent has nothing to hide, there shouldn’t be a problem anyway. Department of Justice Canada Maybe you can look beyond your own blinders and realize there are some very nasty people out there, who do very nasty things to children. You want to protect the abusers; I want to protect the children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 There are problems with the system, bjre. That isn’t in question. But you are saying that we should do away with the system altogether rather than fixing it. Maybe you need to look beyond your personal issue, which seems to be wanting to beat your child without interference from those who think s/he needs protection. Reactionaries like to pretend that there are a whole lot of unnecessary laws and government services that never should have existed. But the alternative would be that we would still be that many people would still live lives of misery that inspired Charles Dickens's novels over a century ago. Sure there are CAS abuses, and people unjustly accused of physical and/or sexual abuse; but how come I've never had a CAS social worker interviewing my kids or have been questioned by police over this sort of issue, if it's so common? Many of the false charges and allegations seem to be connected with messy divorces, and I know of at least one case personally of a man who was falsely accused by his ex-wife of sexual abuse, likely because she wanted to cut off visitations and move the children along with her and her new boyfriend out of province. Since a physical examination of the child revealed no signs of abuse, his ex had to admit to lying about the allegations and ended up losing primary custody to avoid a counter-suit. Here’s a link to info about child abuse in Canada. Any allegation of child abuse must be investigated; its more important to ensure the child is safe than to ensure the parent isn’t embarrassed. If the parent has nothing to hide, there shouldn’t be a problem anyway.Department of Justice Canada Maybe you can look beyond your own blinders and realize there are some very nasty people out there, who do very nasty things to children. You want to protect the abusers; I want to protect the children. This page from Religious Tolerance.org on problems with overzealous social workers trying to protect children notes that "in almost all other incidences where children were removed from communal settings, families have later been reunited after no evidence of sexual abuse was found." Also mentioned are the problems many hippie-dippie new age pagans ran into when conventional neighbours interpreted their wicca and neopagan religious mumbo jumbo as evidence that they were practicing satanic rituals. The Satanic Ritual Abuse scare has been discredited and revealed as a hoax, so it's not likely that anyone has been falsely accused of practicing satanic rituals on their children in the last 20 years. The scandals involving daycare workers falsely accused of sexual abuse ten to twenty years ago, revealed that psychologists and police investigators need to apply different interrogation techniques with young children than they would with adults, since children are more suggestible, and can be easily led to make false statements by an interviewer who asks repetitive and leading questions. New studies of normative sexual behaviour of children has revealed that children will sometimes show curiosity about members of the opposite sex on their own, without being subjected to any kind of interference by an adult. This should have been obvious to any child psychologist who was able to recall trying to play doctor with neighbourhood girls, but for many years, the accepted wisdom of psychology was that children had no sexual curiosity on their own.........so, now they know better, and are much less likely to falsely accuse parents or guardians if their child gets caught playing a game of "I'll show you mine, if you show me yours," with another child in the neighbourhood. So, maybe there have been problems with social workers made mistakes and took children away from parents because of false allegations, but it does appear that they are learning to use better psychological profiling and interviewing techniques; and since budget cutbacks have hit social agencies hard during the last ten years (at least here in Ontario), it strains credibility to believe that there is a vast army of CAS workers on a mission to destroy families and put children into foster care and group homes. It is much more likely that falling budgets for the needs of children and families in crisis, are instead putting more and more children at risk of being left in abusive homes because the social agencies have fewer resources, and have to concentrate on the more obvious and aggregious cases of abuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Progressive Tory Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 They will face lay off if they did not taking enough children into "care": I didn't get, that unless they could round up more kids there would be layoffs. If I understand the article correctly, the problem is the gov't is not poviding enough funds per child, resulting in a deficit. I don't think they are working on a quota system. I know there are a lot of problems with CAS and funding has not kept pace with a seemingly more liberal criteria for removing children from their families. The system has not been able to keep up. Again, I think they should start to focus on kinship fostering. I have been working with this group for seven years, and most families say they would take on the responsibility for half what we are paying strangers, with a little support. Right now they are offered 1/5 with no support. Most just can't afford it and it's breaking their hearts. We are actively lobbying for this and had a meeting with our MPP John Gerretson last week. However, your complaint seems to be the criteria for removing children from their homes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Progressive Tory Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 The first case you mention, of a child wanting to leave the parents and doing so with the help of CAS... this happens all the time. If a child is in an abusive family, they often want out, and seek help from CAS. Thats what CAS is there for. I spoke with a grandmother last week who has not been able to see her 4 grandchildren for almost eight months. Apparently her 11 year old grandson called her one day saying that he was running away from home. She agreed to meet him and found him bruised and crying, after another beating from his stepfather. They immediately went to the police station, where she was arrested because the stepfather had already called them to report an abduction. CAS told her that there was an ongoing investigation and she was wrong to get involved. Wrong to get involved? Her grandchildren are being abused, how could she not get involved? They have been removed from the home twice and taken back. I'm not denying that there are a lot of problems with the system, but don't agree that wounding children is acceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Progressive Tory Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 But on the other hand, I strongly disagree with your other points. I don't think without spanking (saying nothing of "physical punishment") parents can not teach and correct their children. My son is 6. I have never spanked him but he is still pretty good in his classmates and, of course, my parents have never spanked me either but I'm also well in my peers. You're right. My grandson is seven and we've never spanked him either. That doesn't mean he doesn't try us, but for the most part is a great little boy. Perhaps a little off topic, he is deaf, and we communicate with sign language, which requires a lot of eye contact and proper facial expression. By the time I sign what I don't like about his behavour and look into his eyes which are usually filled with remorse, I'm no longer angry and we can deal with it. Maybe if parents looked into the eyes of a child being punished, they might rethink their strategy. They're pretty innocent little creatures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Progressive Tory Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 So, maybe there have been problems with social workers made mistakes and took children away from parents because of false allegations, but it does appear that they are learning to use better psychological profiling and interviewing techniques; and since budget cutbacks have hit social agencies hard during the last ten years (at least here in Ontario), it strains credibility to believe that there is a vast army of CAS workers on a mission to destroy families and put children into foster care and group homes. It is much more likely that falling budgets for the needs of children and families in crisis, are instead putting more and more children at risk of being left in abusive homes because the social agencies have fewer resources, and have to concentrate on the more obvious and aggregious cases of abuse. Exactly. Very well put. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.jpg.9a49e1b2f22a6d34a345152c50044aa9.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.