A REAL HONEST LOOK

[Sarah]

In light of the world situation with terrorism and its elk, I am wondering what others are thinking? I personally have thought that it is long over due that we eliminate religion from all our establishments. Has it not been the basic cause of most would wars? Not to mention 9/11? lets face it, if we stopped teaching our children that Christianity or Islam, or Buddhism etc is the way to heaven, ... (which seems to equal some form of HATE)but that all people are created equal, would we not have a better relationship with that Creator? I believe so. The Islamic world today is as torn apart as the Christian world was 2,000 years ago- plus! As Christianity evolved, there was terrorism and anti-Semitism to the degree we as a, so called, civilized society can hardly imagine the atrocities of men so poisoned by its doctrines...yet it is so.

I just wanted to see if anyone thought as I do on this subject. I believe it will be something of great importance in the years ahead. The manifestation of this truth I have stated above, comes as Israel finds a 16 year old child strapped to a suicide bomb and doesn’t want to die-yet needs recognition from the “bullies” of his school!

[SirSpanky]

Good points, all, but religion is not the only reason terrorism/war occurs. Possibly in the name of religion, but not nessecarily because of it. Take the crudades, or even gulf war #1, both about taking property.

Also you can't force people to do something. They must evolve themselves.

[Goldie]

link

Or what if religion is supposed to unify the world and man decides to use it to divide? All religions have the exact same spiritual message, the differences can be attributed to the time they formed to the peoples needs.

Please read more if you wish.

[Hjalmar]

Let's look at it this way ... You find 19 men willing to give up their lives in unison for a cause. The cause would have to be fairly deep rooted don't you think? In the Muslim world the teachings of Allah totally control these people. Think about this .. Here in Canada one person would think for a long time before agreeing to sacrifice his life for a cause ... but for 19 men to agree to this in unison in the case of 9/11/01 ??? Truly the Muslim religion is controling their lives.

[Moderate Centrist]

Hi Sarah,

In the western world religion has pretty much been eliminated as a controlling factor in peoples's lives. In developing countries it is still very much active.

Without religion we would still have wars. Humans will always find something to fight about so the absense of religion won't mean the absense of war.

Communist regimes were extremely brutal and also athesitic.

The key factor in preventing large scale conflicts will be the development of democratic institutions in developing nations which are accountable to the people. This takes time to acheive.

As nations modernize the influence of religion will decline. This will happen in developing countries as well.

But remember, no religion doesn't mean no war.

[willy]

I am a Christian, and I would say simply this. Don’t blame my religion for my transgressions.

People, who use Christ’s message for hate, are missing the point. The whole religion is based on grace. How can a religion based on forgiveness be the reason for war?

I am not arguing that Christians haven’t done horrible things, they have. I am arguing that is not the teachings of the religion. Christianity starts with our need for Gods grace.

No need for a sermon, but one should be careful what they wish for, a world with completely relative ethics is a world without ethics at all.

Any Jews, Muslims, Buddhists please chime in and I think you would state the values of your religions are also a way to unity in God and not hate.

Sarah, my faith in God is the foundation of my values and I can not separate it from my decisions and how I see the world. Are you saying people like me, people of faith should not be involved in public institutions?

[maplesyrup]

I am a Christian, and I would say simply this. Don’t blame my religion for my transgressions.

People, who use Christ’s message for hate, are missing the point. The whole religion is based on grace. How can a religion based on forgiveness be the reason for war?

I am not arguing that Christians haven’t done horrible things, they have. I am arguing that is not the teachings of the religion. Christianity starts with our need for Gods grace.

No need for a sermon, but one should be careful what they wish for, a world with completely relative ethics is a world without ethics at all.

Any Jews, Muslims, Buddhists please chime in and I think you would state the values of your religions are also a way to unity in God and not hate.

Sarah, my faith in God is the foundation of my values and I can not separate it from my decisions and how I see the world. Are you saying people like me, people of faith should not be involved in public institutions?

I will speak for myself - yes.

[Hugo]

I personally have thought that it is long over due that we eliminate religion from all our establishments.

The governments of the world have murdered nearly 170,000,000 people between 1900 and 1987. This is a fairly conservative estimate, some sources believe it could be double that. Therefore, if you truly believe in the first point, don't you think we should eliminate government and prioritize that removal over and above the elimination of religion?

Has [religion] not been the basic cause of most would wars?

The Crusades killed about 1,000,000 people, the Inquisition about 350,000, and witch-hunts perhaps 100,000. These figures pale into insignificance when compared to the secular wars of the 20th Century, claiming about 40 millions dead on the battlefield. Very few wars are truly religious in nature. Most "religious" wars can also be couched in terms of, for example, territorial conflict in the case of the Crusades. This refutes your second point.

(Figures cited from Prof. R. J. Rummel)

Next?

[August1991]

Next?

I believe that one bomb killed about 200,000 people in Hiroshima and another bomb killed about 90,000 people in Nagasaki. Machine guns no doubt killed many more.

My point? Humans have developed different technologies, including such organizations as religion and the State. Some of these "technologies" are used to kill people - but they are also used to protect property and much else.

Which are the "technologies" that encourage murder most? (Is it really the State?) And what could we do about it?

What's the old line? "The State doesn't kill people. People kill people."

[Hugo]

The State is not a technology, it is an institution.

[August1991]

I suppose there is a difference bewteen capital and technology; and capital includes both human and physical. But organization and management would still fall into the category of technology. What is good technology but an easier way to make widget? And what is trade but the same thing?

Call the State an institution if you will but it amounts to technology.

[Hugo]

Call the State an institution if you will but it amounts to technology.

technology:

1a) The application of science, especially to industrial or commercial objectives.

1b) The scientific method and material used to achieve a commercial or industrial objective.

2) Electronic or digital products and systems considered as a group: a store specializing in office technology.

The state is not a technology as it depends upon no scientific discovery to exist. It is not an application of science because the science it uses varies enormously or may not exist at all. It is not a scientific method either.

[August1991]

Hugo? Still awake? I'll answer in Religion and Politics with new thread.