Cleric supports forced sex and beatings on women

Mr.Canada · January 26, 2009

Well of course, but that doesn't mean, say, they're *religious* beliefs should become law. For instance, I shouldn't be bound by the Catholic Church's view on, say, condoms.

No one's saying you should be. Why would you, you aren't Catholic.

ToadBrother · January 26, 2009

No one's saying you should be. Why would you, you aren't Catholic.

Interesting, so what about euthanasia?

Mr.Canada · January 26, 2009

Interesting, so what about euthanasia?

It's murder.

ToadBrother · January 26, 2009

It's murder.

And thus we see how thin the line is. So my decision as to what I do with my body is, in fact, in the realm of what you believe to be religious-based legislation. You'll let me wear a French tickler, but if I decide I'll end it quick rather than, say, die a horrifying painful death from terminal cancer, you'll bring the weight of the state down on me.

Mr.Canada · January 26, 2009

And thus we see how thin the line is. So my decision as to what I do with my body is, in fact, in the realm of what you believe to be religious-based legislation. You'll let me wear a French tickler, but if I decide I'll end it quick rather than, say, die a horrifying painful death from terminal cancer, you'll bring the weight of the state down on me.

So every pov that happens to coincide with any religion on Earth makes it a religious law?

ToadBrother · January 26, 2009

So every pov that happens to coincide with any religion on Earth makes it a religious law?

You really think I'm an idiot, don't you? The objection to euthanasia is religious. Why else would you give a damn what someone else does to their body?

Mr.Canada · January 26, 2009

A religious leader, a Muslim Cleric, saying that women should be raped and beaten is appalling. I don't see how some people here are disagreeing with this. Womens equality is important to me I'm sorry if that some posters here don't share my view.

We must ensure that Sharia Law is never enacted in Canada. We must fight them on this issue to the end.

guyser · January 26, 2009

We must ensure that Sharia Law is never enacted in Canada. We must fight them on this issue to the end!

True, but hardly worth worrying about. Already been there and said nope.

Womens equality is important to me

But only so far in importance as say.......whether to have Fruit Loops or Count Chocula for breakfast.

And staying on topic of course, you are an ardent proponent of the RC's, yet you want to throw stones at some other misguided, mysoginistic, antiquated religion?

Funny that, I would expect to have my house clean before I tell my neighbours his is dirty. At the very least I would acknowledge the fact both houses are dirty.

You could probably start there. But will you?

(like that will happen

sharkman · January 27, 2009

Does the RC church teach to beat/rape wives? It's not an actual argument when a Roman Catholic points to a disgusting teaching of Muslims to then say the RC church is bad too. What you are then in effect doing is defending the Muslim teaching in question.

I again say why do some find it so hard to just admit they don't like the Muslim teaching in question? You won't admit it. Yet I know, being reasonable people growing up in Canada, you realize women should not be beaten or raped by their husbands, yet you won't say so. It seems some of you simply can't get past the fact that Mr.Canada is religious. That makes you bigoted in this area.

Peter F · January 27, 2009

Sure, it says so right in the article. Direct quotes from a western Imam. It isn't racist to criticize anyone or any group sorry. I'm sorry you support this behavior. Women have struggled for many years for equality and you're trying to undo that by supporting this Imam...shame, shame, shame.

Bullshit. I know what the Imam says for, as you say, there it is right in the Yahoo article (of the OP). But you have claimed the following:

As we can see here is some more from mainstream Islam. These aren't radicals but everyday Muslims who believe these things.

So, according to you, Muslims - all muslims according to you, believe that "that women should be raped and beaten".

And you sir are full of sh%t.

Mr.Canada · January 27, 2009

It seems some of you simply can't get past the fact that Mr.Canada is religious. That makes you bigoted in this area.

That's it exactly, because nearly every time I post, no matter how moderate my position may be on any given subject they launch an attack on my religion. Then say they don't hate Christianity in the same breath. My position is almost always ignored and in it's place an attack on the RCC or a reply to the topic with a barb against my religion. These are from people who are supposed to be tolerant. Tolerrant of everyone as long as they aren't Christian.

cybercoma · January 27, 2009

It is outrageous. But, despite what the Imam says, it is still illegal to rape people in Australia. I don't think Australian law makes an exception for religious belief. So even in your cockamamy world where muslims regularly beat and rape thier wives it is illegal to do so. Despite anyones wierdo religious sanctioned behaviour.
You see? Freedom of religion is being curtailed.

Except, it's only rape if the women being raped come forward and press charges. If they're being told it's their religious duty to be subjugated by their husbands, and most rape victims have a difficult enough time coming forward as it is, they certainly are not going to alert the authorities. Furthermore, if they do alert the authorities, but they didn't express their unwillingness to engage in sexual relations to their husband, they could lose a rape trial. This is a pretty difficult situation that runs much deeper than the law dictates.

[ed. preposition change]

Edited January 27, 2009 by cybercoma

cybercoma · January 27, 2009

Womens equality is important to me I'm sorry if that some posters here don't share my view.

Except when it comes time for them to decide what to do with their bodies when they are pregnant. Women's equality takes a back seat to religious dogma at that point.

cybercoma · January 27, 2009

Does the RC church teach to beat/rape wives? It's not an actual argument when a Roman Catholic points to a disgusting teaching of Muslims to then say the RC church is bad too. What you are then in effect doing is defending the Muslim teaching in question.
I again say why do some find it so hard to just admit they don't like the Muslim teaching in question? You won't admit it. Yet I know, being reasonable people growing up in Canada, you realize women should not be beaten or raped by their husbands, yet you won't say so. It seems some of you simply can't get past the fact that Mr.Canada is religious. That makes you bigoted in this area.

Women should not be beaten.

Muslims should not be broad-brushed.

If someone were identified as Christian, they could be of any number of denominations that are vastly different. Protestants and Catholics were murdering each other in Ireland, remember?

The same can be said for Muslims. You need not look any further than Iraq to see Sunnis and Shi`ia murdering each other.

To say a Muslim cleric said this, so the entire Islamic culture (if there even is a homogeneous Islamic culture to be pointed to) is abusive towards women is wrong. There are well over a billion Muslims in the world today, so it's not appropriate to label them all based on one person's teachings.

Regardless, this guy is wrong and should be condemned for his stupidity.

sharkman · January 27, 2009

Nowhere in any of my comments here have I referred to all muslims believing they can beat/rape their wives, and I have not said that all Muslims believe this.

But when Muslim clerics are saying things that agree with their holy books like the following, it's okay for reasonable people to be concerned.

Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."
Qur'an 4:15 "If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death claims them."

Qur'an 24:6 "And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth."

Women are property to be beaten, starved, and ignored, if their husband swears 4 times he is telling the truth and she is lying. And this is not one cleric teaching this, it's in their holy book, the foundation of their faith.

And we are not talking about what Christians or Muslims did centuries ago, but of what Muslim Clerics are saying and doing today to women.

kimmy · January 27, 2009

So, this thread seems to be primarily about what a doofus Mr Canada is. I'm afraid I don't have anything to add on that front.

However, the news item referenced in the opening post had some issues I was interested in.

First off, whether one believes the average Muslim on the street holds these views, it seems curious to me that many of their clerics seem to be such idiots. Mr Mohtadi, from what little information I have found about him, appears to be yet another example of a Wahhabi scholar in a western country getting caught with his foot in his mouth. (a couple of others that come to mind are Canada's Younus Kathrada, and the Australian who compared women who don't follow Muslim dress to uncovered meat.) And while this is purely speculative, the number of times this sort of thing turns out to be not just Muslim clerics in general but Wahhabi clerics in particular makes me think that Saudi money is the common thread. If a cleric can obtain funding from Saudi Arabia to do "missionary work" in the West, then it doesn't matter if he's out of touch with the values of the society around them. And if there's not a lot of mosques to choose from, they might have a congregation almost by default.

Secondly... to those seeking to draw an equivalence between Islam and the Catholic church...

...if you could choose between living in a Catholic theocracy or a Muslim theocracy, what would you choose?

Either is pretty abhorent to me, but if it was one or the other, I know which I'd choose. How about you guys?

-k

ToadBrother · January 27, 2009

But when Muslim clerics are saying things that agree with their holy books like the following, it's okay for reasonable people to be concerned.

The problem here is assuming that any Muslim cleric or group of them occupy the same position as a Christian sect. Even within Muslim religious movements there is no monolithic structure.

scorpio · January 27, 2009

That's it exactly, because nearly every time I post, no matter how moderate my position may be on any given subject they launch an attack on my religion.

Quit bringing it up then. Sheese.

Peter F · January 27, 2009

Except, it's only rape if the women being raped come forward and press charges. If they're being told it's their religious duty to be subjugated by their husbands, and most rape victims have a difficult enough time coming forward as it is, they certainly are not going to alert the authorities. Furthermore, if they do alert the authorities, but they didn't express their unwillingness to engage in sexual relations to their husband, they could lose a rape trial. This is a pretty difficult situation that runs much deeper than the law dictates.
[ed. preposition change]

I understand and agree. Apparently such behaviour doe's not occur outside of Islam. So remember, everyone, next time you see a Muslim, know that they beat and rape thier wives. None of that PC crap here. Muslims should be treated like the rapists they are.

That is MrC's claim. Based entirely on what he read in a Yahoo article and without any reference whatsoever to what Muslim men actually do.

Its a given; Their rapists and wifebeaters.

And that is pure bigotry.

kimmy · January 27, 2009

I understand and agree. Apparently such behaviour doe's not occur outside of Islam. So remember, everyone, next time you see a Muslim, know that they beat and rape thier wives. None of that PC crap here. Muslims should be treated like the rapists they are.
That is MrC's claim. Based entirely on what he read in a Yahoo article and without any reference whatsoever to what Muslim men actually do.

Its a given; Their rapists and wifebeaters.

And that is pure bigotry.

What a load of crap.

I don't see anywhere where "Mr C" claimed that domestic violence is exclusive to Islam. Domestic violence crosses every ethnic and religious boundary. However, I'm at a loss to recall a time when a leader of any other faith put on a seminar to advocate for wife-beating.

I also see no claim from "Mr C" that "all Muslims" believe this. He did claim that this guy represents "mainstream Islam", and as far as I can tell, this "Islamic Information and Services Network" is just that, a mainstream organization. Perhaps if mainstream Muslims are embarrassed by the stuff their representatives say, they should find better representatives.

If a Catholic priest said this stuff, people would be all over him, and nobody would be running around crying "bigotry!" to deflect the criticism.

-k

Peter F · January 27, 2009

I also see no claim from "Mr C" that "all Muslims" believe this.

From C's original post:

These aren't radicals but everyday Muslims who believe these things

If a Catholic priest said this stuff, people would be all over him, and nobody would be running around crying "bigotry!" to deflect the criticism.
-k

And I have no problem with folks being all over this guy. But MrC isnt = he's all over everyday muslims. Not freak exceptions - but all muslims.

So I stand by the term 'Bigot' to describe MrC.

Mr.Canada · January 27, 2009

From C's original post:
And I have no problem with folks being all over this guy. But MrC isnt = he's all over everyday muslims. Not freak exceptions - but all muslims.

So I stand by the term 'Bigot' to describe MrC.

Me saying everyday Muslims believe this and are being taught this isn't equal to you trying to convince people I said "all Muslims", nice try. You want to stand up for a Cleric that advocates the beating and raping of women go ahead. I'm trying to get the focus of this topic to be on the women yet most of you don't care about that and only wish to smear me. Imo this takes away from the issue of violence against women being promoted amongst certain tracts of our society.

WIP · January 27, 2009

I don't miss the point at all. What do you or MrC know about what is done behind closed doors? Nothing!
I understand that Sharia Law allows the smacking of women to encourage them to do what the husband wants. Which is one of the reasons I am not planning conversion anytime soon.

What was your position on application of Sharia Law back two years ago, when an Ontario special commission was recommending that Sharia tribunals be recognized? It is disgusting how the most of the political Left rolls over or looks the other way when faced with aggressive demands from Muslim activists! You have no credibility if you demand that Christian fundamentalists respect secular values, and at the same time allow Muslim fundamentalist to walk all over them.

That is not to say that Muslim husbands regularly beat and rape thier wives, is it? Yet that is exactly what MrC claims. And I say that is the usual bigot-bullshit. There is no muslim cleric that I know of who claims its perfectly fine for mulsim men to beat and rape thier wives.

And what's to stop them from adopting the same interpretation as this Australian cleric? If they believe their Quran is a divine revelation, and these instructions are in the book, it's likely that the only force subduing this teaching is awareness that they are a minority in a non-Muslim nation. Can we expect this moderate approach to change in the future, when they feel less bound by Western disapproval?

WIP · January 27, 2009

A religious leader, a Muslim Cleric, saying that women should be raped and beaten is appalling. I don't see how some people here are disagreeing with this. Womens equality is important to me I'm sorry if that some posters here don't share my view.
We must ensure that Sharia Law is never enacted in Canada. We must fight them on this issue to the end.

Nice to hear that you are so enlightened. But keep in mind that the concept that a married woman could refuse sex and charge her husband with rape for forcing himself on her, is a recent development here to. One of the legal eagles here can find the details, but I vaguely recall a few news stories on this subject back in the 70's, and a quick google check informs me that Canada didn't have spousal rape legislation until 1983. But now that we do, we have to make sure that freedom of religion doesn't allow some groups to take us back in time to the middle ages.

Molly · January 27, 2009

I just spent some time googling terms like 'Godly submission' in a Canadian context.

I had quite a few eye-rolls and even more good laughs at the results, but I think that I should render this gem in cross-stitch: "After studying God's word this week I have come to this conclusion: No Christian man wants his wife to look like a fundamentalist."