Mr.Canada Posted January 25, 2009 Report Posted January 25, 2009 I hope it's Jim Prentice. Jim Prentice is too close to Ignatieff and this could lead to a vote split and another Tory minority. We need a majority to start fixing Canada or else it's a failure imo. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Progressive Tory Posted January 25, 2009 Author Report Posted January 25, 2009 This was the bill which could send people to prison if they tried to tell anyone about bible quotes, and could concievably get a court to rule the bible was hate literature.Not surprising anyone with any belief in freedom of religion or freedom of speeh voted against it. That's a little over simplified. Bill C-250 "... that amended the Criminal Code of Canada to add penalties for publicly inciting hatred against or encouraging the genocide of people on the basis of sexual orientation and added a defence for the expression of good-faith opinions based on religious texts." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_C-250 Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
normanchateau Posted January 25, 2009 Report Posted January 25, 2009 That's a little over simplified. Bill C-250 "... that amended the Criminal Code of Canada to add penalties for publicly inciting hatred against or encouraging the genocide of people on the basis of sexual orientation and added a defence for the expression of good-faith opinions based on religious texts." Religious zealots and homophobes such as Harper conveniently fail to acknowledge that an amendment was put into C-250 to safeguard the religious rights of those who discriminate against homosexuals for religious reasons. Since the passage of C-250, the Bible, Koran and other religious tracts which advocate death or other forms of punishment against homosexuals has not once been challenged as hate literature on the grounds of C-250. Harper's opposition to C-250 was motivated either by homophobia or his bible-thumping zealotry given that the amendment protected Harper's freedom of religion to continue to condemn homosexuality to the point of advocating death by stoning to homosexuals. Quote
Hydraboss Posted January 25, 2009 Report Posted January 25, 2009 The only thing we can hope for in the West is that Harper's replacement is a anti-religious, pro-gay, social liberal that is from Quebec (Ontario would also do fine). That would piss everyone in Alberta off enough to finally consider the seperation idea. At the very least, Stelmach would get punted in favor of a real conservative (not a liberal-ndp'r) and then watch the "firewall" go up. We'd take our ball and go home. Quote "racist, intolerant, small-minded bigot" - AND APPARENTLY A SOCIALIST (2010) (2015)Economic Left/Right: 8.38 3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.13 -1.23
Mr.Canada Posted January 25, 2009 Report Posted January 25, 2009 Religious zealots and homophobes such as Harper conveniently fail to acknowledge that an amendment was put into C-250 to safeguard the religious rights of those who discriminate against homosexuals for religious reasons.Since the passage of C-250, the Bible, Koran and other religious tracts which advocate death or other forms of punishment against homosexuals has not once been challenged as hate literature on the grounds of C-250. Harper's opposition to C-250 was motivated either by homophobia or his bible-thumping zealotry given that the amendment protected Harper's freedom of religion to continue to condemn homosexuality to the point of advocating death by stoning to homosexuals. Being critical of any group isn't a condoning of hatred. You're trying to say that being critical of any one groups policy is hatred which is just not the case. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
normanchateau Posted January 25, 2009 Report Posted January 25, 2009 Being critical of any group isn't a condoning of hatred. Bill C-250 does not say that you can't be critical of homosexuals. What it says is that you can't advocate the murder (or genocide) of homosexuals. What the amendment to C-250 does is it allows you to say, solely on religious grounds, that it's OK to murder homosexuals. However, with the passage of C-250, it's no longer acceptable to advocate the murder of homosexuals for nonreligious reasons. So, Mr. Canada, since you appear to be a religious person, you are free to promote the killing of homosexuals as long as you acknowledge that you are doing so because of your sincere belief in the Bible. Quote
Progressive Tory Posted January 25, 2009 Author Report Posted January 25, 2009 She wasnt lucky enough to be a Tory, though, where such things are permitted. When Harper was leader of the opposition he allowed free votes. However, once elected everything changed. Ask Bill Casey. His constituents didn't approve of the budget because of a broken promise, he voted against it and is now an independant. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Progressive Tory Posted January 25, 2009 Author Report Posted January 25, 2009 The only thing we can hope for in the West is that Harper's replacement is a anti-religious, pro-gay, social liberal that is from Quebec (Ontario would also do fine). I don't quite understand the logic. I support the Reformers in the West and respect that they are representing their constituents. I even support in principle the outlined vision of Canada drafted by Preston Manning and Stephen Harper. The fact is that Canada represents a lot of different cultures, and provincial autonomy is not a radical idea. We shouldn't expect French culture to be forced on the rest of Canada anymore than we should expect any other. I just worry that a loose federation could fall apart, so cling to a united Canada. However, what some people in the West don't understand, is that all of your elected MPs will still be your elected MPs in a Coalition. A new leader for the Conservative Party will still lead the Conservative Party. I rather doubt they would select an "anti-religious, pro-gay, social liberal that is from Quebec or Ontario". However, if they want a chance at being the governing Party, they'll have to select a leader that can not only keep the two factions of the Party together, but appeal to a broader base of Canadians. There are very few, if any, anti-religous MPs in all the Parties. Tolerance for homo-sexuality doesn't mean you're a cheerleader and social issues like pro-life, often cross party lines. We've become too partisan. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Jack Weber Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 Love him, hate him, or merely tolerate him; the writing is on the wall. Harper's days as leader of the Conservative Party of Canada are numbered. His latest mishandling of the Parliamentary crisis, that he himself created, has left even those in his own party cold."OTTAWA - Their blades remain sheathed, but astonished Conservatives are quietly fuming about the tactical blunder they fear could toss them into opposition. And the blame seems to be landing on the prime minister's doorstep. Stunned Conservatives MPs are barely concealing their outrage. Many are venting their anger in private because of Stephen Harper's iron grip on the party and the uncertain prospects of a coalition of opposition parties. But while a few blame Harper's new top aide, Guy Giorno, for putting their government on a knife's edge, most lay responsibility for their unprecedented predicament squarely at the feet of the prime minister." http://timestranscript.canadaeast.com/news.../article/498790 They looked to him to get them out of it, but instead he may have damaged good reputations to save his job. "After failing to bring forth an essential stimulus package last week, Stephen Harper has betrayed the fundamental obligation of a prime minister: to build and strengthen national unity in possibly the world's most difficult federation to govern. Beginning last week, Mr. Harper has sought to avoid a legitimate vote of confidence and its unpleasant consequences not by sober or even merely partisan constitutional arguments but, culminating in Wednesday's television address, by a barrage of deliberately gross distortions. He is turning a serious dispute over the need for immediate economic stimulus into an unrelated and dangerous matter of national unity." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...NStory/politics "As Prime Minister Stephen Harper battles a political coup from a potential opposition coalition, two mysterious websites suggest -- or are intended to suggest -- that he may also be facing a mutiny from within." http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...081130/20081130 Two names have been tossed around, Jim Prentice and John Baird; but I'm sure there are others in the Party who are capable to lead. Peter MacKay? Maurice Vellacott? Any suggestions? Any of the Harrisites would be a BAD choice.Well...It would be a good choice to me because right wing kooks running that party means they are unelectable.More moderate consevative voices like Mr.Prentice,Mr.McKay would be a good idea. Another choice would be a fluently bilingual Red Tory like Jean Charest.Unfortunately,or fortunately(depending on your point of view),the reform kooks will not go for a small c conservative from the East.That may lead to another split on the political right in this country,which as much as I have no interest in right wing politics,I see the necessity for it to keep the equally kooky leftists in check. Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
jdobbin Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 That is none of your business so please stay out of it. It is the business of the Conservative Party and its members, you're a member of neither. Perhaps you'll remember that next time you comment on internal Liberal decisions. Quote
jdobbin Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 We'd take our ball and go home. It seems your separatists can't even make inroads in provincial politics. Quote
Mr.Canada Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 Perhaps you'll remember that next time you comment on internal Liberal decisions. Yeah, I already took it back as a silly thing to say. Everyone and every group needs to be open to criticism in order to live in a free society. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
ToadBrother Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 If indeed the knives are being drawn behind Mr.Harper's back,it's too bad.Yes he does keep a rather tight rein on his members,but so did the morally bankrupt Jean Chretien.Funny how his supporters described this as an example of fine leadership,but Harper is portrayed as a dictator.One huge difference between Harper and Chretien though,for all his faults,real or imagined,at heart he an honest man. Do you actually believe that? I think Harper is every bit the tyrannical, conniving Machiavellian SOB that Chretien ever was, with the one added problem that Chretien could at least appear human, whereas Harper is a cold, merciless fellow who seems to believe himself smarter than even his own MPs. Quote
blueblood Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 Do you actually believe that? I think Harper is every bit the tyrannical, conniving Machiavellian SOB that Chretien ever was, with the one added problem that Chretien could at least appear human, whereas Harper is a cold, merciless fellow who seems to believe himself smarter than even his own MPs. He is smarter than his own MP's, he is leader after all and set discipline to form gov't. Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
Molly Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 That requires comment, Blueblood, but leaves me wondering quite what to say... I would like to think that he is NOT 'smarter than his own MPs', firstly because I don't for one second believe that he is nearly as bright as he seems to being given credit for, and secondly because MPs, for the most part, aren't exactly dummies. But I must also acknowledge that Mr. Harpers minions don't impress me. Coming up with suggestions for a successor to him, for instance, is more difficult than it should be. And... I have to look at the crop of folks he appeals to. He's made a career out of 'Animal Farm'-style disinformation, and of appealing to impressionist, uncritical assessment. You might be right. Maybe he is 'smarter than his own MPs'., but it's no compliment to say so. Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
Progressive Tory Posted January 26, 2009 Author Report Posted January 26, 2009 You might be right. Maybe he is 'smarter than his own MPs'., but it's no compliment to say so. Certainly not a compliment to his MPs if this is where the bar is set; considering his actions of late. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Progressive Tory Posted January 26, 2009 Author Report Posted January 26, 2009 Any of the Harrisites would be a BAD choice.Well...It would be a good choice to me because right wing kooks running that party means they are unelectable.More moderate consevative voices like Mr.Prentice,Mr.McKay would be a good idea. From a national perspective someone like Peter MacKay might make sense. However, we have to remember that there is still a very strong Social Conservative base to the Party. I don't see them electing a leader who does not share their views - the very reason they got into politics in the first place. Jim Prentice is a little more moderate, but not bilingual which would hut him in Quebec; although, they've all but lost that province anyway. You're right about the Harris group though. having lived under that gov't in Ontario, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I was shocked that so many ended up not only in Harper's gov't, but his cabinet! They should have just told the RCMP to remain on standby, and bring extra cuffs. I think a Conservative leadership convention could be very interesting. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Molly Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 Isn't that the truth, though? Even while having very mixed feelings about the Harris administration--- that many of the things done were so, so very overdue, but others were so downright dumb-- it carries the feeling as though the last rats off the sinking ship were rounded up and recruited to the federal cabinet. Some of those individuals are the exact reason 'Harris' is a four-letter word to so many in Ontario. Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
Progressive Tory Posted January 26, 2009 Author Report Posted January 26, 2009 Isn't that the truth, though?Even while having very mixed feelings about the Harris administration--- that many of the things done were so, so very overdue, but others were so downright dumb-- it carries the feeling as though the last rats off the sinking ship were rounded up and recruited to the federal cabinet. Some of those individuals are the exact reason 'Harris' is a four-letter word to so many in Ontario. When Mike Harris was caught on tape meeting with a known member of organized crime; he took one for the team and resigned. But what many people don't know is that the same man also donated heavily to the campaigns of Jim Flaherty ($ 40,000), John Baird and Tony Clement. However, in my local paper this morning they've brought up a couple of people I hadn't really considered. From a Canadian Press story: "...Supporters of at least four potential successors - Quebec Premier Jean Charest, former New Brunswick Premier Bernard Lord, Environment Minister Jim Prentice and Defence Minister Peter Mackay - have begun putting out feelers. Should the government be defeated over the budget, many Tories privately predict Harper would be toast." They don't mention John Baird so maybe he knows he wouldn't stand a chance. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Mr.Canada Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 I think a Conservative leadership convention could be very interesting. We just had one. We pushed and voted for more socially conservative policies to be included. Believe me if Harper doesn't start appeasing his grassroots soon his leadership rating among us will drop and he'll be resigning. We aren't the Liberals, the grassroots choose the leader of the Tories. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
madmax Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 http://timestranscript.canadaeast.com/news.../article/498790http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...NStory/politics http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...081130/20081130 Dear victims of SPIN...... The first article is a repeat of an article from Early December Last year, BEFORE, Dion took ownership of the coalition and screwed it up. Had the media had a crystal ball, they would have been making articles about how long Dion can last as Leader of the LPC. The 2nd and 3rd articles provided are Late November and Early December articles, not current ones. Looking back During this period Harper had messed up royally, and his MPs were blaming him for what could result in their loss of power. All said it was Harpers mess and he had to fix it. So, my question to Progressive Tory, why would you start a new thread on 3 articles that were covered last month and quickly went to the back burner with the rise and fall of Dion? The coalition had the Conservatives on their heels, but they lost their momentum with Dion, and Harper successfully put himself first and Canadians LAST when he chose to prorogue parliment. Thus many of those doubting thomas and nervous nellies comfortably went off to their latin and caribean holidays to enjoy their tax payer funded holidays. Conservatives really aren't talking about replacing Harper, not until another Screw up, which he is prone to do that is... Quote
Moonbox Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 Yeah I'm with madmax on this one...You're like 2 months late almost posting this. Not only is it outdated, what you proposed PT is not at all what happened. It's just more wishful thinking on your part. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Progressive Tory Posted January 26, 2009 Author Report Posted January 26, 2009 We just had one. We pushed and voted for more socially conservative policies to be included. Believe me if Harper doesn't start appeasing his grassroots soon his leadership rating among us will drop and he'll be resigning. We aren't the Liberals, the grassroots choose the leader of the Tories. The last Conservative Convention brought out some interesting priorities, but it wasn't a Leadership Convention. Your views are shared by many though it seems. The Party is moving away from it's original goals and needs someone to get them back on track. The scandals must be hurting them as well. Preston Manning was a much better leader, in terms of Social Conservatism and fiscal responsibility. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Progressive Tory Posted January 26, 2009 Author Report Posted January 26, 2009 So, my question to Progressive Tory, why would you start a new thread on 3 articles that were covered last month and quickly went to the back burner with the rise and fall of Dion? I'll try to answer that. 1. I'm fairly new here so did not have an opportunity to weigh in on those topics. 2. The Dion factor was not the only thing that changed the direction of the Parliamentary Crisis. The theme of the counter attack was the issue of the Coalition itself being a 'coup', 'treason', undemocratic'. All terms used by the Tories. However, evidence of Harper's so-called 'coup' in 2004 surfaced and put a different perspective on the issue. But perhaps the worst Tory attack was 'separatist', suggesting that by making a deal with the 'Bloc', meant an attempt to divide the country. Again, another hypocrisy since Harper's own coalition included the Bloc. 3. The Dion issue, though I don't think I've used that much recently, was actually raised by others when discussing Ignatieff's shadow cabinet. 4. The Conservative leadership issue has become more of a 'front burner' issue with the revelations I've mentioned above. It is a very real possibility, more so now than a month ago when more Canadians were behind Harper. This budget is all about HIS job. He knows it, the media knows it, and most people here know it. A new Conservative leader is also on the minds of Conservatives, who according to the Canadian Press "Have begun putting out feelers". Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Progressive Tory Posted January 26, 2009 Author Report Posted January 26, 2009 Yeah I'm with madmax on this one...You're like 2 months late almost posting this. Not only is it outdated, what you proposed PT is not at all what happened. It's just more wishful thinking on your part. I've addressed that with my response to Madmax. I wasn't here two months ago and the political climate has changed a lot in those two months. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
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