M.Dancer Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 not sure what you're babbling about.the link from manchester city that was provided earlier shows at exactly 81.5% of the people living in the region are "white". But not living in his riding.... Boundary changes Current MP: Gerald Kaufman (Labour) (more information at They work for you) Candidates: Qassim Afzal (Liberal Democrat) 2001 Census Demographics Total 2001 Population: 88143 Male: 49.2% Female: 50.8% Under 18: 23.8% Over 60: 14.8% Born outside UK: 21% White: 69.5% Black: 5.4% Asian: 19.2% Mixed: 3.6% Other: 2.3% Christian: 52.6% Hindu: 1.1% Muslim: 18.2% Sikh: 0.8% Full time students: 21.1% Graduates 16-74: 21% No Qualifications 16-74: 31% Owner-Occupied: 43.3% Social Housing: 32% (Council: 20.5%, Housing Ass.: 11.5%) Privately Rented: 21% Homes without central heating and/or private bathroom: 12.9% http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/guide/seat-pr...stergorton?cp=2 Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Argus Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 not sure what you're babbling about.the link from manchester city that was provided earlier shows at exactly 81.5% of the people living in the region are "white". Yeah, but he doesn't represent a city, he represents a part of the city, a riding, and that riding is only 70% white. Is that too complicated a thought for you? and furthermore, did you even READ what this is about and WHERE this is about or did you go into one of your zion fury mode and try to twist and turn things and start babbling about issues that do not matter? not only that, but you're talking about canada when we're talking about an MP in the UK. Uh yeah, but i was pointing out a local riding where a minority controls who gets elected as an example of how that works. Maybe the words I used were too big? He said the claim that many of the Palestinian victims were militants "was the reply of the Nazi" and added: "I suppose the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants."[/b] They WERE militants. The difference lies in the justification. The Israelis have had forty years to exterminate the Palestinians if they were so inclined, and so far the population continues to rise. So either the Jews are not trying to exterminate the Palestinians or they're doing a really, really, really bad job of it. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
DogOnPorch Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 Mila 18. -------------------------------------- How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing! ---Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dub Posted January 27, 2009 Author Report Posted January 27, 2009 But not living in his riding....http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/guide/seat-pr...stergorton?cp=2 i stand corrected about the number i gave. 80% was what i found on the Manchester site and 70% is what is the correct number. regardless, the 10% difference does not change the fact that close to 3/4 of his riding are white. that's a huge difference between the 18% of muslims. do you think, that maybe, there are many whites who also agree with gerald kaufman's stance on numerous topics, including the israeli/palestinian issue and that's why he is elected every single year? kaufman has written books and has been a leading jewish critic of israel for a long time. he's been quite active and vocal and to me and many others, he seems quite genuine about what he believes. i think it's wrong and disingenuous of you or anyone else to suggest that kaufman is doing and saying what he is because he wants to win support from his riding. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 i think it's wrong and disingenuous of you or anyone else to suggest that kaufman is doing and saying what he is because he wants to win support from his riding. That's nice. Aren't opinions wonderful? --------------------------- It's a Daisy. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Oleg Bach Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 That's nice. Aren't opinions wonderful?--------------------------- It's a Daisy. Opinons are theory. The come and go like the wind - what is almost true proves in time to be partially ture - untrue - and totally false...If some one says "I think" - it's usually a whispy opinon. Thinking something does not make it so. If someone says "I believe", then you are more likely to be closer to fact - because the person has fully committed themselves to their statement. Are the tough high archy hard liners acting like National Socialist spirited by racial hatred? I believe that some are. That's what I view - that's what I believe..because it appears evident - To deny this self proclaimed truth regarding Israel is a dis-service to the people of the world and the common person of Israel and Palistine. Quote
dub Posted January 27, 2009 Author Report Posted January 27, 2009 (edited) They WERE militants. The difference lies in the justification. The Israelis have had forty years to exterminate the Palestinians if they were so inclined, and so far the population continues to rise. So either the Jews are not trying to exterminate the Palestinians or they're doing a really, really, really bad job of it. so only if israel exterminates the palestinians will you stand up and say, "hey! maybe this is wrong"? this is more than about the number of people being killed. there are a lot of similarities between the jews in the warsaw ghettos and the palestinians, especially the gazans living where they are. just like the jews in the warsaw ghettos, a palestinian cannot leave or enter gaza without israel's permission. the main roads are controlled by israelis just like the main roads were controlled by the nazis in warsaw. the air space, the waters and the economy is controlled mostly the israelis. there are frequent assaults on the palestinians which leaves people dead and homes demolished. much like the condition the jews lived in under the nazi rule. the military weapons used by the nazis as compared to what the jewish militants had is comparable to what the israelis have now and what the palestinians have. there were many jewish militant groups in warsaw which were formed to resist the occupier, the nazis. same thing has happened in the palestinian territories. Edited January 27, 2009 by dub Quote
dub Posted January 27, 2009 Author Report Posted January 27, 2009 in the movie schindler's list, there is a scene that i will never forget. it's a scene where a group of jews were walking through the street, being displaced from their homes. there were german residence standing and watching them. a few of these germans were yelling at the jews to leave or to die. in one instance, a german child ran up to a jewish woman and pulled on her clothes and then kicked her. the reason this scene stood out is because i've seen similar acts done by jewish settlers to the palestinians in the west bank. not just the children, but the adult settlers frequently do these things. they kick and throw rocks at palestinians who are walking too close to the settlements. there is one footage i remember seeing where a group of north american activist escorted 4 palestinian children who had to walk by a jewish settlement in order to get to their school. these children had rocks thrown at them and threatened every day. even with the escorts and a video camera filming, they were still threatened by these zealots. why aren't you speaking against these things? Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 in the movie schindler's list, there is a scene that i will never forget. it's a scene where a group of jews were walking through the street, being displaced from their homes. there were german residence standing and watching them. a few of these germans were yelling at the jews to leave or to die. in one instance, a german child ran up to a jewish woman and pulled on her clothes and then kicked her.the reason this scene stood out is because i've seen similar acts done by jewish settlers to the palestinians in the west bank. not just the children, but the adult settlers frequently do these things. they kick and throw rocks at palestinians who are walking too close to the settlements. there is one footage i remember seeing where a group of north american activist escorted 4 palestinian children who had to walk by a jewish settlement in order to get to their school. these children had rocks thrown at them and threatened every day. even with the escorts and a video camera filming, they were still threatened by these zealots. why aren't you speaking against these things? Citation? One's from a movie...the other we have to take your word for. Meanwhile...are you familiar with this event? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar http://www.theserpentswall.com/page33.html http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&...sa=N&tab=wi Lot's of folks have been comparing Gaza to the Holocaust lately. I think they're over-reacting. ------------------------------------------------------- Looks like somebody suuuuure cut through that fence, alright (spits chaw). ---Bang Gunly: US Marshal (Stan Freberg) Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dub Posted January 27, 2009 Author Report Posted January 27, 2009 That's nice. Aren't opinions wonderful?--------------------------- It's a Daisy. yes. we all have many of them. it doesn't change the fact that 70% of his riding (close to 3/4 of them) is white and you tried to suggest that he is speaking against israel in order to be re-elected by the muslims in his riding. maybe you can share more opinions about why kaufman speaks about israel's treatment of the palestinians. Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 yes. we all have many of them.it doesn't change the fact that 70% of his riding (close to 3/4 of them) is white and you tried to suggest that he is speaking against israel in order to be re-elected by the muslims in his riding. Which make up a sizable voting block, and given that the whites probably have diverse thoughts on the conflict, the muslim block accounts for a winning core. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
He Who Hesistates Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 (edited) Hamas hasn't even been invited to the table in 20 years so it's hard to say. Although I will say that while Hamas might be reprehensible they are also not completely irrational, they'll negotiate, but like any party they have their own terms.I feel the appropriate measure would be to end the 40-year occupation of Iceland. Then why did they pick the option with the worst long-term consequences? It's because while the Israeli public might want a two-state solution theoretically, they still need to fulfill their obligations to their tribal mentality and hit back with a head-for-an-eye approach. (fyi, Palestinians also theoretically support a two state solution, yet support military attacks against Israel) Any politician who dares suggests negotiation is a better solution to rocket attacks than war would be sacked - even though in a year Hamas will probably have re-built the supply tunnels and re-supplied with rockets, thus rendering the Gaza invasion useless. A delegation from Hamas just finished negotiations with Israel in Egypt, I believe it was. They reached ceasefire, and have since broken it. So, unless their is something far more than self-evident about this, they are being invited to the table. End the occupation? It's an excellent idea, but when you do, and the rockets continue to fall, well, what next? The head-for-an-eye comment is apt. The problem though, is not that Israel and Hamas have been trading blows for years. The problem is that Hamas has, in its founding charter, a section on the "elimination" of the Jews. The only thing they want from Israel, in the long run, is its destruction. And Israel cannot give them that. Israel and Palestine can co-exist. Until something drastic changes about Hamas, though, Israel and Hamas cannot. Israel is then determined that, if one must be destroyed, it is not them. Edited January 27, 2009 by He Who Hesistates Quote
dub Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Posted January 28, 2009 A delegation from Hamas just finished negotiations with Israel in Egypt, I believe it was. They reached ceasefire, and have since broken it. So, unless their is something far more than self-evident about this, they are being invited to the table.End the occupation? It's an excellent idea, but when you do, and the rockets continue to fall, well, what next? The head-for-an-eye comment is apt. The problem though, is not that Israel and Hamas have been trading blows for years. The problem is that Hamas has, in its founding charter, a section on the "elimination" of the Jews. The only thing they want from Israel, in the long run, is its destruction. And Israel cannot give them that. Israel and Palestine can co-exist. Until something drastic changes about Hamas, though, Israel and Hamas cannot. Israel is then determined that, if one must be destroyed, it is not them. that's israel's excuse and you are repeating their excuse. i wish people would have a memory longer than a few years. before hamas, fatah had accepted israel's right to exist and agreed to the 1967 border. what happened in return? more palestinian land annexed and more settlement increase. Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 that's israel's excuse and you are repeating their excuse. i wish people would have a memory longer than a few years.before hamas, fatah had accepted israel's right to exist and agreed to the 1967 border. what happened in return? more palestinian land annexed and more settlement increase. Suicide bombers..... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
dub Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Posted January 28, 2009 Suicide bombers..... wrong. here is a list of suicide attacks from wikipedia by the following: * List of Hamas suicide attacks * List of Palestinian Islamic Jihad suicide attacks * List of al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades suicide attacks * List of Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine suicide attacks the earliest was in 1994. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Suic...tinian_conflict israel has been occupying the palestinians, annexing their land and increasing the settlements well before 1994. Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 of Palestine suicide attacksthe earliest was in 1994. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Suic...tinian_conflict israel has been occupying the palestinians, annexing their land and increasing the settlements well before 1994. And when did the peace accords get signed....and for their trouble what did they get? 139 suicide attacks since September 2000 Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Argus Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 so only if israel exterminates the palestinians will you stand up and say, "hey! maybe this is wrong"? I should jump up and down and accuse them of trying to exterminate the Palestinians when there's no evidence that's what they're trying to do? this is more than about the number of people being killed. there are a lot of similarities between the jews in the warsaw ghettos and the palestinians, especially the gazans living where they are. Not really, not in terms of motivation and behaviour. just like the jews in the warsaw ghettos, a palestinian cannot leave or enter gaza without israel's permission. There is a difference between not being able to leave a part of a city, and not being able to leave a country. Lots of people can't leave their country without permission. There is also a difference in motivation. Most of the movement restrictions Israel has introduced are designed to make it more difficult to ship arms in or commit terrorist attacks on Israel. the main roads are controlled by israelis just like the main roads were controlled by the nazis in warsaw. And the main roads in Ontario are controlled by the OPP. What's your point? there were many jewish militant groups in warsaw which were formed to resist the occupier, the nazis. same thing has happened in the palestinian territories. The resistance groups were formed to try and resist an occupier bent on exterminating them. All the Israelis want from Gaza is for the Gaza people to stop bothering them, stop firing rockets at them, stop stockpiling weapons and launching suicide attacks on them. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
BigAl Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 The resistance groups were formed to try and resist an occupier bent on exterminating them. All the Israelis want from Gaza is for the Gaza people to stop bothering them, stop firing rockets at them, stop stockpiling weapons and launching suicide attacks on them. Israel is fighting for its right to exist -- as a result, they stockpile weapons and defend their borders. I don't see how this is different than what the Palestinians are trying to do -- defend their right to exist. Clearly the Israelis don't want to "wipe out" the Gazans...if they wanted to they certainly have the firepower to do it. But I *do* wonder whether Israel isn't interested in subversive assimilation -- annexation of a culture. Just a thought. Quote
dub Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Posted January 28, 2009 And when did the peace accords get signed....and for their trouble what did they get?139 suicide attacks since September 2000 i only asked that you would have a memory longer than 8 years. the PLO accepted israel in 1988. what is israel's excuse for continuing to occupy AND increase settlements after the PLO accepted israel and when the very first suicide attacks started? or what is your excuse? Quote
BigAl Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 i only asked that you would have a memory longer than 8 years.the PLO accepted israel in 1988. what is israel's excuse for continuing to occupy AND increase settlements after the PLO accepted israel and when the very first suicide attacks started? or what is your excuse? You know, I was just thinking about this now -- SUICIDE ATTACKS. That's got to say something for these people's commitment, if nothing else. There aren't too many official armed forces who go so far as to blow themselves up to achieve military goals. Good lord. Who needs bullets when you have Mohammed Achmed who's willing to be a human grenade, eh? Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 i only asked that you would have a memory longer than 8 years.the PLO accepted israel in 1988. what is israel's excuse for continuing to occupy AND increase settlements after the PLO accepted israel and when the very first suicide attacks started? or what is your excuse? The PLO 'accepted' Israel in 1988 because of Ronlad Reagan's conditions for talks. Not to mention that they were sitting in Tunisia feeling rather sorry for themselves. --------------------------------------------- It's a Daisy. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
M.Dancer Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 The PLO 'accepted' Israel in 1988 because of Ronlad Reagan's conditions for talks. Not to mention that they were sitting in Tunisia feeling rather sorry for themselves.--------------------------------------------- It's a Daisy. My memory is fine. The PLO may indeed finally accept Israel's right to exist but the peaxce accords weren't signed till 1993...the year the suicide bombers started their work. ...and that's what peace brought Israel. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Rue Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 The fact that this MP is a Jew is absolutely and utterly irrelevant just as his religon would be irrelevant if he was an atheist, Christian, Muslim, Bahaii, Hindu, Buddist. The fact that some of you make it an issue shows you buy into this type casting and this stereotype that if a Jew criticizes Israeli policies, it must be credible because he is a Jew criticizing Israel is as assinine as saying the same about a Muslim who criticizes Hamas or a Christian who criticizes Hamas or Israel. This playing up of this MP's religious to suggest it gives his words added meaning and importance is a classic example of anti-semitism and stereotyping people's opinions based strictly on their religion or perceived ethnicity. It is absolutely irrelevant. If anything for a Jew to accuse other Jews of being Nazis shows he is an an ignorant insensitive ass but that is all. Quote
dub Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) The PLO 'accepted' Israel in 1988 because of Ronlad Reagan's conditions for talks. Not to mention that they were sitting in Tunisia feeling rather sorry for themselves. what's your point about this? why do you make irrelevant comments? the important point is that the PLO accepted israel but israel continued to increase its settlements and continued to occupy the palestinians. from 1988 to 1994, israel continued to increase the settlements both in land size and in population. do you know why israel says they want peace with someone who recognizes them and when they are recognized, their actions shows that they really don't care about it and continue to do something that shows that they just want to grab more land? so who is going to trust the israeli government? what if hamas accepts israel's right to exist? will israel go towards a fair and just peace or will they continue to do what they have been doing in the past 60 years? say one thing and do something else? Edited January 28, 2009 by dub Quote
dub Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Posted January 28, 2009 My memory is fine. The PLO may indeed finally accept Israel's right to exist but the peaxce accords weren't signed till 1993...the year the suicide bombers started their work....and that's what peace brought Israel. you right. your memory is probably okay. it's that you just don't know enough about the situation which prevents you from making a logical and rational argument. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.