The 10 million dollar mistake?

[CANADIEN]

Yeah, a kid who was able to point out Arar by name.

Says who? A man whose testimony on Monday was contradicted by the notes he took when he interrogated Khadr. You know, the notes where Khadr is quoted as saying "he looks familiar" when shown a picture of Arar for a second time, after denying having ever seen him just minutes earlier. I don't know for you, but to me "he looks familiar" is not the same as "I know him, his name is so and so".

It's also the notes that states that Khadr said he saw Arar (or more precisely, "that guy who looks familiar") in Afghanistan at a time when the RCMP had Arar under surveillance in Ottawa.

Once again, I don't know about you, but either what that witness said on Monday was true and what he wrote the day he interrogated Khadr was not, or what he wrote in 1982 was true and what he said this week is not. Two statements so contradictory cannot both be true at the same time and logic dictates that it makes more sense to believe what he wrote when the interrogation was still fresh on his mind.

[CANADIEN]

Oh yes I do. My observations were intended to present a plausible explanation as to why Khadr may have got his dates wrong about when he spotted Arar in Afghanistan. All indications are that he was not prompted and the name Arar came from his lips, not the interrogator.

Too bad the notes taken BY THE INTERROGATOR, AT THE TIME HE INTERROGATED Khadr, indicate something radically different from "Khadr saw the picture and said it was Maher Arar".

Edited January 22, 2009 by CANADIEN

[August1991]

Interesting thread but in practical terms, it appears that Harper or Ignatieff will have to decide what to do with Omar Khadr. Obama apparently wants to give the problem to us.

So, what should Canada do when Khadr arrives on a plane? Let him go free to wander the streets? (What kind of message would that send?)

If we don't have legislation to deal with such cases, I hope someone will write a law. Can we deal with this kid under the War Measures Act?

[jdobbin]

Interesting thread but in practical terms, it appears that Harper or Ignatieff will have to decide what to do with Omar Khadr. Obama apparently wants to give the problem to us.

Think I mentioned a long, long time ago that at some point, Khadr was going to end up back in Canada and it would be better to have a policy in place than to not have one.

So, what should Canada do when Khadr arrives on a plane? Let him go free to wander the streets? (What kind of message would that send?)

Seems kind of silly in hindsight that three PMs didn't think about that and do something about it.

If we don't have legislation to deal with such cases, I hope someone will write a law. Can we deal with this kid under the War Measures Act?

No. A Security Certificate cannot apply to a Canadians citizen indefinitely. Evidence would eventually have to be presented as to why a citizen was being held.

Khadr will have to be charged with some sort of crime and it will have to meet the test of whether it is constitutional. At the moment, I don't know that even the U.S. has been able to do that. They have withdrawn charges so many times, re-written the law and even now, it is hard to say that charges would result in conviction and imprisonment.

[Riverwind]

The trouble is Khadr will be on the streets in a matter of days because:

1) Most of the evidence was collected illegally so the is likely not enough left to convict him.

2) He was a minor when the offense was committed and in Canada that means no jail time in the unlikely event he was convicted.

I think that is why both Chretian and Harper did nothing. They knew that letting him walk as soon he got back to Canada would seriously undermine Canadian-US relations and could lead to all sorts of trouble on other fronts such as border security agreements.

I can understand why people think letting him rot in Guantanemo is an injustice but there is more a stake here than the fate of a single person.

[August1991]

No. A Security Certificate cannot apply to a Canadians citizen indefinitely.

A Security Certificate cannot apply to a Canadian citizen at all.

Security Certificates are used for foreigners whom we would normally deport. The foreigners choose not to go home, we don't want to deport and we don't want them walking our streets. Hence, the Security Certificate. A Security Certificate detains no one - all are free to leave Canada when they choose.

I suppose we could strip Omar Khadr of his Canadian citizenship and then deport him to Pakistan, or keep him under a Security Certificate if he refuses to return to Pakistan. We have done this before. Then again, do we want to let someone like Omar Khadr wander the streets of Pakistan or the world?

This is the problem Obama faces in Guantanamo with some 200 detainees.

No wonder that Obama has given himself one year to figure out what to do.

"The detention facilities at Guantanamo for individuals covered by this order shall be closed as soon as practicable, and no later than one year from the date of this order," said the draft executive order, posted on the website of the American Civil Liberties Union and confirmed by a White House source.

AFP

"As soon as practicable and no later than.... "

I love bureaucratic/legalistic terms like that. I used to write them.

[jdobbin]

A Security Certificate cannot apply to a Canadian citizen at all.

Security Certificates are used for foreigners whom we would normally deport. The foreigners choose not to go home, we don't want to deport and we don't want them walking our streets. Hence, the Security Certificate. A Security Certificate detains no one - all are free to leave Canada when they choose.

Sorry, I meant the security provisions under the 1988 Emergency Act. Didn't mean that Security Certificate which as you said only applies to non-Canadians.

The Emergency Act means Khadr's rights can be suspended but the government would have to show that there were "reasonable and justifiable" reasons in withholding those rights.

I suppose we could strip Omar Khadr of his Canadian citizenship and then deport him to Pakistan, or keep him under a Security Certificate if he refuses to return to Pakistan. We have done this before. Then again, do we want to let someone like Omar Khadr wander the streets of Pakistan or the world?

I don't know how you can strip a Canadian born person of their citizenship. I suppose anything is possible. However, if you believe that is possible, I guess it is also possible that he could be shot the moment he crosses the border.

This is the problem Obama faces in Guantanamo with some 200 detainees.

No wonder that Obama has given himself one year to figure out what to do.

"As soon as practicable and no later than.... "

I love bureaucratic/legalistic terms like that. I used to write them.

Some will be sent to their home countries, others will serve time in American jails. It is doubtful that Khadr will spend time in a U.S. jail. His crime, if they can actually provide a solid case for it, probably cannot stand the U.S. Constitution's test of habeas corpus and legal representation if it moves to U.S. soil. Nor could it stand the test of age and time served already.

The situation is this: Obama has to close the prison and find a solution. Even Bush knew that it couldn't last forever and they have been sending people back to their home countries for some time.

[CANADIEN]

Omar Khadr is accused of:

- murder (tehcnically, he might not be guilty if he didn't throw the granade that killed a American soldier)

- attempted murder (he was there, fighting in a terrorist outfit, so that one is a sure thing IMO)

- support of terrorism (guilty as charged)

- spying (don't know enough about the legitimate evidence to have an opinion)

There is enough to convince him of at least two of the charges from the simple fact he was there and participated in the fight. He should be brought before a LEGITIMATE American Court, something the Guantanamo tribunal most definitely is not. Found guilty, and sentenced.

As for his age. A person can be tried as an adult in a regular court of law for crimes committed as a minor, depending on the gravity of the crime. I think this fits the bill. And I don't think he is a child-soldier, for the very reason that he was not a soldier period; besides, legal protection for child-soldiers were (rightly) put in place for children abducted and forced to participate in war. O,ar Khadr does not fit that bill.

I say give him a real trial then lock him and throw the key.

Edited January 22, 2009 by CANADIEN