The Senate

[Smallc]

If the Prime Minister did not advise the viceroy on whom to appoint, a constitutional crisis would arise wherein the Governor General would have to make appointments without ministerial advice. Not a good idea.

Well, I'm not sure about this. It would probably remove the politics from it.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The PM instructs the GG who to appoint. Even so, it was a nice thought.

[g_bambino]

Well, I'm not sure about this. It would probably remove the politics from it.

But embroil the Governor General in politics at the same time, no?

[Smallc]

The PM instructs the GG who to appoint. Even so, it was a nice thought.

What he was saying, is that there is a constitutional mandate to appoint senators. If there were less than the required number of senators (15?) currently appointed, then the GG would have to appoint more on her own in order to keep the chamber moving. That is only if the Prime Minister were unwilling to give advice.

[Smallc]

But embroil the Governor General in politics at the same time, no?

Well, the Governor General used to appoint senators without ministerial advice. It would have to be done in a very thoughtful way, but it could work.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I understand and I agree. What I was getting at was that it was a nice thought just to let all the terms expire and then finally start appointing elected representatives.

[Smallc]

What I was getting at was that it was a nice thought just to let all the terms expire and then finally start appointing elected representatives.

Why does elected necessarily equal better?

[g_bambino]

Well, the Governor General used to appoint senators without ministerial advice. It would have to be done in a very thoughtful way, but it could work.

Really? I didn't know that, and am a bit confused by the claim. Do you mean before the Statute of Westminster, when the Governor General was a represenative of the British King-in-Council? Even then, couldn't the Governor General have been seen to have been taking advice from British ministers of the Crown? I'm really not sure, myself...

[Smallc]

Really? I didn't know that, and am a bit confused by the claim. Do you mean before the Statute of Westminster, when the Governor General was a represenative of the British King-in-Council? Even then, couldn't the Governor General have been seen to have been taking advice from British ministers of the Crown? I'm really not sure, myself...

Well, I'm not completely sure either as I read it on Wikipedia. in fact looking back, that's not what it really said, although it did imply it. It may be that in the past the Governor General was simply taking advice from someone else, as you say.

The Governor General holds the power to appoint senators, although, in modern practice, he or she makes appointments only on the advice of the Prime Minister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Senate

[Alta4ever]

Harper won fair and square and can appoint who he wishes just as every PM has done before him. It is his democratic right. If Harper had made the appointments as soon as they came up we wouldn't be talking about this.

Just to be clear it is his right, but there is nothing democratic about it.

[Smallc]

but there is nothing democratic about it.

Nor is there supposed to be. It doesn't make it a bad thing.

[Boydfish]

Ever visit reality? Layton IS able to cooperate with others as was shown in his ability to put together a coalition of three different parties with different ideas. It is HArper that cannot compromise, or cooperate, and I certainly hope the Liberals give him the boot at the first opportunity.

I think you're confusing ability to cooperate with ability to be bribed. While they share some features and aspects, they are not the same thing.

He came to support it because represented literally the only chance he would ever have at being more than an MP in a fringe party. The fact is that Layton realized the same thing that Dosanjh and Rae did: The only way for an NDP leader to get their hands on federal power was to defect to the Liberals. That means that he was destined to be the de facto leader of a group of MPs. To paraphrase Trudeau on the point of being an MP, "They are nobodies".

There is a profound difference in being able to arrive at a consensus within a group as a large inclusive party and simply abandoning all principles in a power grab. In the election a bare six weeks before the attempt, Layton and his entire party were very clear that they were running against the Liberals as much as the Conservatives. If Layton and the NDP had stood up with Dion and made it clear to their electorate that they felt that merging was an option if they failed to take office themselves, it would be fair to call that a case of cooperation. They made it clear, however, that there was no coalition option prior to the election.

They didn't make an honest accounting of their intentions to the electorate however and it makes all of the difference in the world. Do we all remember Layton loudly proclaiming "I'm running for Prime Minister"? Where does that fit in with his hidden agenda by handing all of the people's votes for the NDP over to the Liberal Party? Can you cite me the speech where Layton told voters that if they voted for him and he didn't become PM, he'd hand all of their votes over to Stephane Dion?

The fact is that Layton either concealed his intentions of being Liberal Party Junior or he's prone to making 180 degree reversals in fundamental policy right after an election. Neither quality makes him a comforting candidate to be anywhere near the levers of power.

[whowhere]

Over the radio I heard that Harper is telling the Senate to smarten up or he'll get rid of the Senate!!!! He's angry because they aren't passing some of his bills and they don't like the term limits he's put out for them. I do know that some of the Conservatives think that 8 year term is too short. As I was watching last year, a female Conservatives said she thought 8 years was too short and rather have 12 years. The Cons said they will being forth a bill to abolish the senate and if he can get Layton on his side he will able to do it and split up the coalition. I think right now though Layton isn't too happy with Harper. But politicans being politicans, they always change their minds!

Please Harper do abolish the Senate but that is probably beyond your authority. They are unelected and a waste of tax payer dollars. 130 Thousand a year until 75 then government pension. Talk about winning the job lottery. In any case I believe this rhetoric about the senate is a political ploy by the Conservatives. If Harper wants to make the Senate Elected all he would need to do is ask the Governor General to ask the Queen to create a proclamation making the Senate an elected house. End of story.

What is Harper really up to??

[ToadBrother]

Please Harper do abolish the Senate but that is probably beyond your authority. They are unelected and a waste of tax payer dollars. 130 Thousand a year until 75 then government pension. Talk about winning the job lottery. In any case I believe this rhetoric about the senate is a political ploy by the Conservatives. If Harper wants to make the Senate Elected all he would need to do is ask the Governor General to ask the Queen to create a proclamation making the Senate an elected house. End of story.

What is Harper really up to??

Can you show me where in the Constitution that the Queen has *that* power?

[DrGreenthumb]

The fact is that Layton either concealed his intentions of being Liberal Party Junior or he's prone to making 180 degree reversals in fundamental policy right after an election. Neither quality makes him a comforting candidate to be anywhere near the levers of power.

Layton is a good leader for us NDP voters because he gets results. He may not have been able to get everything in the NDP platform into the coalition platform he was able to get some things we wanted. That is better than holding out for some personal ideological utopia where you get EVERYTHING the way you want it. Thats the way parliament should work. Not one group's ideology being forced down the throats of everyone elese. Give and take, compromise, ....not Harper's strong points.

[Boydfish]

That is better than holding out for some personal ideological utopia where you get EVERYTHING the way you want it.

There is nothing wrong with compromise. There is everything wrong with failing to disclose to those voting for you and your party that you intend to subvert their democratic will. If people wanted Dion or the Liberals in general as the government, they'd have voted for them, not the NDP.

You can offer up every justification in the book, but at the end of the day, Layton's stunt proved that a vote for the NDP is a vote for the Liberals.

[Alta4ever]

Layton is a good leader for us NDP voters because he gets results. He may not have been able to get everything in the NDP platform into the coalition platform he was able to get some things we wanted. That is better than holding out for some personal ideological utopia where you get EVERYTHING the way you want it. Thats the way parliament should work. Not one group's ideology being forced down the throats of everyone elese. Give and take, compromise, ....not Harper's strong points.

Results what results he has done no better then broadbent. He will not be PM and I doubt he will be leader after the next leadership review. He has had 3 kicks at it and done nothing but make a lot of noise. Jack compramise really, what confidence motion has he not voted against? what kind of compromise has he tried to make with this government? Jack knows nothing of compromise, had he been thinking during the election he would have been tring for something realistic like maybe Stornaway. He has had real opportunity to renew his party take away the left vote of the liberal party and move his party closer to forming government down the road, but he has not taken the steps to do this. PMPM gave him real opportunity to take away the liberal party funding change the NDP to a Labour Party and become the other National party but alas this is lost on Jack and the NDP because they just don't get it.

[madmax]

What is Harper really up to??

Putting CPC bagman in the Senate. Thus giving them all the Senate Luxuries, and a pay check for being a good CPC hack. Harper is a strong believer in patronage. And on top of this the Senate sometimes works for 72 days in an entire year.

[madmax]

Results what results he has done no better then broadbent.

Not in Seats but Jack has taken a party from Oblivion and not spoken of, to becoming coffeeshop talk. While Broadbent was more liked then Jack, Ed had stronger bases to draw from during his period. Ed Broadbent supports Jack Layton, which says alot since we hadn't seen much of Ed since he resigned as leader of the NDP.

He will not be PM

You never know..... He has nine lives.

and I doubt he will be leader after the next leadership review. He has had 3 kicks at it and done nothing but make a lot of noise.

And has been successful in being heard through the noise, unlike any NDP leader since Ed Broadbent.

Jack compramise really,

When Harper dropped Martin as a dancing partner, Jack managed to work with the Martin Government.

what confidence motion has he not voted against? what kind of compromise has he tried to make with this government?

What reason has the Prime Minister given to have Mr. Layton side with him on a confidence motion?

Jack knows nothing of compromise,

Jack knows how to count. Harper has failed to compromise. Mr. Harper uses push-pull strategy.

He has had real opportunity to renew his party take away the left vote of the liberal party and move his party closer to forming government down the road, but he has not taken the steps to do this. PMPM gave him real opportunity to take away the liberal party funding change the NDP to a Labour Party and become the other National party but alas this is lost on Jack and the NDP because they just don't get it.

I don't recall their being any formal talk on Party funding from the Harper Government. They never campaigned on it in recent elections. They never discussed it with other parties. It was to be put forth on the Monday, but then the Prime Minister Delayed the vote, then pulled it off the table, then prorogued (SUSPENDED PARLIMENT) from their duty and ability to formally debate policy.

In the last election the LPC were Greenies, neither left nor right, just stupid with stupid policies adopted from the Green Party. The NDP finished ahead of the Liberals in BC, ALBERTA, SASK, MANITOBA, NORTHERN ONTARIO, and NS, but the LPC base is in Ontario where the NDP has never been as popular as they are today.

People can think alot of things about Jack Layton, but he does get it. He also doesn't seem to pay attention to polls whereas the current Harper Government spends more money on polling then any previous government.

The two men are polar opposites and yet the common ground between them has been missed, avoided, ignored on purpose. I believe it was the Prime Minister who blew off Layton shortly after the election. That is his choice. Layton isn't a pushover, and would compromise if there was something there. But I don't believe there is.

The Prime Minister is looking for new a Dance Partner, and since the BQ have moved away from the CPC, the Prime Minister will pretend he is courting the LPC and Iggy. I don't know if Mr. Harper thinks Iggy has nice eyes:)

They share wrong ideas, such as the war in Iraq, but you have to start somewhere. Perhaps that could be the first kiss when the government is allowed to go back to work.

I am sure everyone will applaud the separtist the Prime Minister appointed to the Senate.

[madmax]

You can offer up every justification in the book, but at the end of the day, Layton's stunt proved that a vote for the NDP is a vote for the Liberals.

That's funny. Have you heard this one..

A vote for the NDP is a vote for the Conservatives?

How about this...

A vote for the Conservatives is a vote for Conservative Senators.

A vote for the NDP is a vote to abolish the Senate.

[Boydfish]

A vote for the NDP is a vote for the Conservatives?

Nope. But when I see Layton's signature on a coalition document like he did with Dion, I'll be the first to say it.

[madmax]

Nope. But when I see Layton's signature on a coalition document like he did with Dion, I'll be the first to say it.

Political spinning from people who want to slur a party that has votes that other parties want. It is a favourite tactic of the two main political parties trying to create doubt regarding the legitimacy of a political party or government.

A vote for the NDP is a vote to get an NDP MP elected.

A vote for the CPC is a vote to get a CPC MP elected.

A vote for the LPC is a vote to get an LPC MP elected.

After the election, everything is about getting enough MPs on board to pass legislation.

[madmax]

Prime Minister Harper

18 New Senators.... Thinking of Senators First.

I like this....

Senators takin care of bizness

You get up late every morn'

From your personal assistant's warning

Take the 11:15 into the city

There's a lineup at le Chateau

And suits pushin', suits shovin'

And the girls who always look pretty

And if your limo's on time

You can get to work by one

And start your cinchy job to get your pay

If you ever get annoyed

Look at me I'm a party fundraiser, too

I love to work at nothing half a day

And I'll be...