Canada Announces $4b Auto Bailout Package

[tamtam10]

In a much anticipated decision, Canada announced today a $4b bailout package to Canadian subsidiaries of the Big Three. You can read the article here:

http://informedvote.ca/2008/12/canada-appr...-plan/#more-330

[Borg]

What happens when this money is gone?

Pretty tough to get out of a hole by creating more debt for the nation.

Borg

[Oleg Bach]

What happens when this money is gone?

Pretty tough to get out of a hole by creating more debt for the nation.

Borg

The national family will be in a deeper hole, that's for sure - but a few that are not family loyal will walk away with enough money to gold plate their toilets.

[Mr.Canada]

What happens when this money is gone?

Pretty tough to get out of a hole by creating more debt for the nation.

Borg

They're going to attach strings to this money and I hope they stick to that as I am against any money given away freely. There must be conditions or they can get the money elsewhere as far as I'm concerned.

[Oleg Bach]

They're going to attach strings to this money and I hope they stick to that as I am against any money given away freely. There must be conditions or they can get the money elsewhere as far as I'm concerned.

So you are against being kind? What happened to that whole Christian thing you were ranting about? Just pretending? - Latch on to any cause that might promote you? - Rule of thumb for the arch conservative of old - take and never give back ever - especially freely....Look where that rule has gotten them. You sure like the Mammon - again Merry Christmas.

[Mr.Canada]

So you are against being kind? What happened to that whole Christian thing you were ranting about? Just pretending? - Latch on to any cause that might promote you? - Rule of thumb for the arch conservative of old - take and never give back ever - especially freely....Look where that rule has gotten them. You sure like the Mammon - again Merry Christmas.

More garbage. Add to the conversation or take this spam someplace else please.

[Borg]

They're going to attach strings to this money and I hope they stick to that as I am against any money given away freely. There must be conditions or they can get the money elsewhere as far as I'm concerned.

Still the money will be spent - the hole will be deeper and we then will be hearing requests for even more money.

Despite the pain it will bring, I am against this.

Providing money wil only delay the inevitable.

Borg

[punked]

I don't know what happened to the 3.4 billion the red states put into the foreign car manufactures when that was gone?

[Argus]

What happens when this money is gone?

The only way this makes any fiscal sense at all is if the auto manufacturers restructure their operations (too many models, too many unattractive cars) and their labour agreements and get their costs down to what the foreign auto makers deal with. Otherwise this just delays the inevitable and sticks us with the bill.

[scribblet]

There should be a lot of strings attached, including CEO salary and bonus cutbacks, along with the union concessions. Wait, hasn't the union refused...

http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servle...y/Business/home

[capricorn]

The more CAW digs in its heels, the likelier it is that Canadian auto production be will moved south of the border. The US and Canadian government are moving in the same direction. Can't say the same for the UAW and the CAW. I doubt the US will wait for CAW to get on board.

Canadian Auto Workers president Ken Lewenza said he is concerned auto workers may be unfairly targeted by the conditions attached to the U.S. aid package. He said it is “ridiculous” to suggest the Detroit Three need to bring their labour costs in line with those at U.S. plants run by Japanese auto makers.

Is Lewenza trying to instruct the UAW to resist wage parity with Japanese producers? Wouldn't surprise me as it sounds like Lewenza is on another planet.

“This isn't about wages and benefits of workers,” Mr. Lewenza said in an interview. “We could work for nothing and we wouldn't sell another vehicle.”

http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servle...y/Business/home

What a bizarre statement. Question to Mr. Lewenza. Is it or is it not about wages and benefits? I think his members would like to know.

[Topaz]

The more CAW digs in its heels, the likelier it is that Canadian auto production be will moved south of the border. The US and Canadian government are moving in the same direction. Can't say the same for the UAW and the CAW. I doubt the US will wait for CAW to get on board.

Is Lewenza trying to instruct the UAW to resist wage parity with Japanese producers? Wouldn't surprise me as it sounds like Lewenza is on another planet.

http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servle...y/Business/home

What a bizarre statement. Question to Mr. Lewenza. Is it or is it not about wages and benefits? I think his members would like to know.

AS Kenny said"He is concerned that auto workers may be unfairly targeted by the conditions attached to the US aid package and its ridiclous to suggest the Detroit Three need to bring their labour costs in line with those of the US plants run by Japanese auto makers. This isn't about wages and benefits of workers. We could work for nothing and we wouldn't sell another vehicle." I agree with Ken that is reason there problems is that the govts allowed the "Auto Pact " died and now auto makers don't have to make and sell their autos in Canada, they just go to Mexico. The wages are 3-5.00, the quality of anything that come out of Mexico is junk! CAW members have given up a lot in their last contract. Some have given up even more, what exactly do the taxpayers want? Capicorn, I think you said you worked for the Fed govt. am I right? If I'm right, would you give up some of your pension, if Harper decided that?

[scribblet]

Harper seems to be falling in line with the opposition demands to spend, spend spend. Can we spend our way out of a recession, probably not, who will get the blame when these guys fail anyway and the money is not paid back.

Why should we bail out Chrysler which is private whose parent company has billions in assets.

[Mr.Canada]

Harper seems to be falling in line with the opposition demands to spend, spend spend. Can we spend our way out of a recession, probably not, who will get the blame when these guys fail anyway and the money is not paid back.

Why should we bail out Chrysler which is private whose parent company has billions in assets.

Harpers hand is being forced by the anti-Christian Secular-Socialist Coalition of hate. If they don't spend they get voted out so we have no choice at all.

[Topaz]

Harper seems to be falling in line with the opposition demands to spend, spend spend. Can we spend our way out of a recession, probably not, who will get the blame when these guys fail anyway and the money is not paid back.

Why should we bail out Chrysler which is private whose parent company has billions in assets.

I think we will see Chrysler disappear altogether and sadly leaving the city of Windsor with high unemployment like Oshawa. Diamler owns Freightliner trucks and that can make more money selling trucks and they do have a plant down in Mexico.

[Topaz]

Harpers hand is being forced by the anti-Christian Secular-Socialist Coalition of hate. If they don't spend they get voted out so we have no choice at all.

Poor baby!!!!!

[capricorn]

Doublespeak by Ken Lewenza? Yesterday he said no to concessions. Today this.

During their join announcement, both Harper and McGuinty made it clear the funding comes with the belief autoworkers won’t balk at making some concessions.

Lewenza didn’t rule out future concessions but repeated that his workers were already competitive and productive.

“We’ve said from day one that the CAW would be part of the solutions, but we would not take direct responsibility that the crisis that we’re in today is a result of our wage and benefit packages because it is not,” he said.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2008...20/7816261.html

It sounds like Lewenza is on a public relations exercise. He appears to be concerned that the public is buying into the argument that the main reason the Big Three are in deep doodoo are the wages and benefits paid to their members. I'm afraid this is one PR war he will not win.

As for concessions, he opened the door a crack. He's probably hoping that any concessions agreed to by the UAW to ensure the immediate flow of financial relief will be overturned by union-friendly President Obama. Looking down the road, Obama doing right by the UAW would provide Lewenza a stick to hit the feds with. Of course, President Obama might act to repatriate the Big Three, in which case we could say bye bye to whatever portion of the $4B bailout already spent. Not to mention the chink it would put in the CAW's armour.

[capricorn]

Capicorn, I think you said you worked for the Fed govt. am I right? If I'm right, would you give up some of your pension, if Harper decided that?

Life's too short to worry until there is reason to. Ask me again in six months.

[aftermarketcrf]

The Canadian and Ontario governments will provide the Canadian subsidiaries of the Detroit automakers with $3.29 billion USD or 4 billion CAD in emergency loans, the Prime Minister Harper said 20 Dec 08. General Motors will receive 3 billion CAD and Chrysler 1 billion CAD. Prime Minister Harper and the Ontario Premier have pledge to support 20% of the US bailout package. Now it is important to remember that there may be an estimated 400 - 600,000 auto related jobs in Canada according to various news sources. The key word is related, not directly related. The amount of job loss is most likely inflated to gain sympathy. GM employees 183,500 Americans, 64,500 Europeans, and only 18,000 Canadians. Do the math that only equates to 6.77% of GM jobs. So why are we paying 20% of a failing American controlled business? What do you think an American business will do if they need to cut jobs to survive...or worse yet declare bankruptcy after one year? Why wouldn't our government instead buy into an automotive company that’s doing well and producing efficient vehicles?

Edited December 21, 2008 by Charles Anthony
merged thread; old OP title: "Why bailout U.S automakers?, Theft under 5 billion"

[scribblet]

I think we will see Chrysler disappear altogether and sadly leaving the city of Windsor with high unemployment like Oshawa. Diamler owns Freightliner trucks and that can make more money selling trucks and they do have a plant down in Mexico.

So do I actually, but surely they could sell off some assets to keep afloat.

[Topaz]

Doublespeak by Ken Lewenza? Yesterday he said no to concessions. Today this.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2008...20/7816261.html

It sounds like Lewenza is on a public relations exercise. He appears to be concerned that the public is buying into the argument that the main reason the Big Three are in deep doodoo are the wages and benefits paid to their members. I'm afraid this is one PR war he will not win.

As for concessions, he opened the door a crack. He's probably hoping that any concessions agreed to by the UAW to ensure the immediate flow of financial relief will be overturned by union-friendly President Obama. Looking down the road, Obama doing right by the UAW would provide Lewenza a stick to hit the feds with. Of course, President Obama might act to repatriate the Big Three, in which case we could say bye bye to whatever portion of the $4B bailout already spent. Not to mention the chink it would put in the CAW's armour.

Maybe what you don't know is they just signed a 3 year contract and made concessions and they will make more but not until the contract comes due. For the Big 2-3 to survive you have to have fair trade and until the govt ensure that Korea and Japan allow NA autos into their countries, it isn't a fair trade! Most of Canadian built auto goes to the US and they aren't buying now. There more to this than worrying about the wages of the workers.

[Argus]

Maybe what you don't know is they just signed a 3 year contract and made concessions and they will make more but not until the contract comes due. For the Big 2-3 to survive you have to have fair trade and until the govt ensure that Korea and Japan allow NA autos into their countries, it isn't a fair trade!

This is something few talk about any more, though it was much in the news a few years back. Mind you, a big part of the problem is the focus by NA auto manufacturers of big, gaz guzzling cars while the preference in Asia is for very small, fuel efficient cars. Besides, NA cars tend to be, well... ugly, or at best bland, inside and out. Still, it's true that the Japanese and South Korean governments have put all kinds of road blocks in place to prevent foreign imports. So have the Chinese, btw, which again few talk much about.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Anybody figure out that free trade isn't what they told us it would be yet? How many jobs have we lost ? How many more can we afford to lose, as in the auto sector?

[Argus]

Excellent article detailing the actual wages of the UAW in the US, and how the large dollar figure was arrived at.

$73 an hour? Not exactly

[tamtam10]

Harper seems to be falling in line with the opposition demands to spend, spend spend. Can we spend our way out of a recession, probably not, who will get the blame when these guys fail anyway and the money is not paid back.

Why should we bail out Chrysler which is private whose parent company has billions in assets.

We shouldn't be bailing out any of the Big Three. Giving them huge amounts of money will not fix the problems within those firms. Major consolidation and restructuring needs to take place.