Public Sector Employees (MANAGEMENT AND BARGAINING UNIT)

[madmax]

I'm a public service employee with a provincial government and my husband works for the feds. In our field, hands down the private sector is out pacing us in wages and holiday opportunities. And lower level provincial staff are being paid higher than more senior staff in the federal department in a similar field. I'd say this pole, besides providing poor and polorized options, paints an untrue picture of the current system.

Untrue picture? I never try to do that. Just ruins credibility. Perhaps this will help.

How much more do Public Employees like Argus Make then Private Sector Employees

Federal employees earn more than private workers

TAVIA GRANT

Globe and Mail Update

Federal government workers earn 17.3 per cent more on average than people in the private sector who are in similar positions, a Canadian survey showed Tuesday. The gap widens even further when perks like shorter workweeks are included, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business study said. When pensions and other benefits are added to calculations, the difference widens to 41.7 per cent between the federal public sector and the private sector.

That is 41.7% MORE then the private sector.

As for the wages and benefits of politicians didn't they just give themselves a raise?

And a fully paid layoff.

I also don't believe cutting wages and cutting spending is going to solve the nation's economic issues - it's much more complicated and requires greater long-term vision than that.

IF cutting private sector wages is good for the goose, then its good for the gander. Particularly in a recession. There is nothing "special" about Public Sector employees.

Is there?

Edited December 22, 2008 by madmax

[guyser]

There is nothing "special" about Public Sector employees.

Is there?

I am sure a couple of the PS people will tell you that they are.

[madmax]

I am sure a couple of the PS people will tell you that they are.

This poll is the higher then support for the CPC in an election. The CPC could add these changes to the January Budget.

[Argus]

You can call me madmax

Overinflating your worth and what you do is typical of a public sector employee such as yourself. You are not productive.

Only an idiot makes statements when he lacks even the slightest familiarity with the topic at hand. You have no clue what I do or how productive I am.

Here is a position that answers the phone at the tax office. Not a bad starting wage. Most people in call centres make minimum wage.

Have you tried to talk with some of those call centre people lately who earn minimum wages? I have, and it's a nightmare.

Do you actually expect to be able to get reliable information on taxation from such a person?

I'm sorry you have such a crappy job with no benefits. Then again, perhaps that simply reflects your limited skill set.

[Argus]

Untrue picture? I never try to do that. Just ruins credibility. Perhaps this will help.

How much more do Public Employees like Argus Make then Private Sector Employees

Surveys like this pop up from time to time. Few of them are particularly valid once you examine the methodology.

Oh I'm not suggesting there is not a wage and benefit disparity, but it's exaggerated by studies of this sort. A better comparison would be between public sector employees and the employees of large, unionized private sector organizations. But this survey doesn't do that. It tries to make allowances for the fact public sector employees are generally older and better educated, but fails to take into account other criteria for employment in the public sector, such as the premium placed on language and communication skills.

[madmax]

Only an idiot makes statements when he lacks even the slightest familiarity with the topic at hand. You have no clue what I do or how productive I am.

You may never find better paying job in the private sector then your current public sector employment. Your statements suggest that you overvalue your position, and the positions of others. Your statements have also undervalued the work of others in the private sector to justify your "superior" work in the public service.

Have you tried to talk with some of those call centre people lately who earn minimum wages? I have, and it's a nightmare.

You have made a brilliant arguement... it's like talking to the public sector over the phone

Do you actually expect to be able to get reliable information on taxation from such a person?

I'm sorry you have such a crappy job with no benefits. Then again, perhaps that simply reflects your limited skill set.

Normally I like to boast. "Lets Compare Pay Stubs" but since you are public sector, I hate to believe I could come up on the short end of the stick based on the stats that suggest a Public Sector Employee makes 41% more then the private sector employee in the same line of employment.

Public Sector Pay and benefits are out of line with the current private sector. The Private Sector is facing a downturn. So is the Government, as tax revenues decline, and deficits increase, changes have to be made to the workplace.

The private sector is acting. Should this trend continue, and I believe it will for the forseeable future, the Public Sector Pay, perks and benefits that already far exceed what exists in the private sector will stand out that much more once the private sector cuts are followed through on.

The public sector is very immune and as you said and job security is superior. Job Security is something that the Public Sector take for granted. Thus, more pay, more benefits, less work, less productivity and more job security is a major contrast to the private sector.

[madmax]

Oh I'm not suggesting there is not a wage and benefit disparity, but it's exaggerated by studies of this sort. A better comparison would be between public sector employees and the employees of large, unionized private sector organizations.

Where do you live? Sweden, France?

A person in your position is unlikely to be in a Union if in the private sector. I am not certain how many Unionized bean counters exist, but I haven't met any outside of the public sector.

[Peter F]

I am not certain how many Unionized bean counters exist, but I haven't met any outside of the public sector.

Which explains the alleged wage disparity. I suggest private sector employee's fight tooth and nail to retain their wages and benifits if not increase them. I suggest they may find unionization will improve their productivity in this regard.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Foolish poll for starters, no place for me to vote. I must add that part of the problem with the public sector is the patronage appointments made by governments, and the lack of accountability in government for actions of the public sector.

I would suggest that each member of government be given responsibility for a government department and have them replace the top bureaucrat doing the job currently. Next step is to begin to eliminate the middle management positions within government to trim back on senior level bureaucrats. Only then can we even begin to hope to start cutting back on the people actually preforming services to the public. There are no doubt many positions which can be contracted out to the private sector to save money, this should be done next.

The entire key to running a government is to maintain levels of public services while managing the costs of doing so. There are indeed ways of reducing government spending as I have already stated, but to cut into services without trimming the fat first is a very common mistake.

[OddSox]

A better comparison would be between public sector employees and the employees of large, unionized private sector organizations.

Like General Motors? Good comparison.

[Bryan]

Of course the poll is intentionally provocative, but the point it raises is still valid.

When people everywhere are having to cut back, businesses are struggling, and thousands of people are losing their jobs, OF COURSE people whose salaries are paid by those taxpayers should get thier wages and benefits cut back. In fact, govts should look there for cost savings first before anything else. There is no way in hell that someone who is paid from my tax money should have any expectation of anything. Cut the salary, cut the benefits, cut the pensions, eliminate sick days and personal days, reduce the levels of management, and eliminate redundant positions.

A 25% pay cut all at once is a little hash though. I mean, I lost more than that when the US dollar tanked, and I've made out OK, but I still wouldn't wish that on anyone. A gradual 2-3% per year cut ought to do it.

[madmax]

Foolish poll for starters, no place for me to vote.

I have made alot of polls which are usually well received. This poll has only two choices on purpose. While you maybe correct that there is "NO PLACE" for you to vote, you may choose the one that is the closest to your position. You can put a disclaimer on your choice in the comments section.

As for a foolish poll, I must say, that I have direct contact with a number of private establishments that are profitable that are probing these cuts in addition to reduction of hours and employees, while others have these specific cuts on the table for both unionized and non unionized staff.

I must add that part of the problem with the public sector is the patronage appointments made by governments, and the lack of accountability in government for actions of the public sector.

Fair enough, and not taken into consideration in this poll. That is reserved for another thread, but is a valid point.

I would suggest that each member of government be given responsibility for a government department and have them replace the top bureaucrat doing the job currently. Next step is to begin to eliminate the middle management positions within government to trim back on senior level bureaucrats. Only then can we even begin to hope to start cutting back on the people actually preforming services to the public. There are no doubt many positions which can be contracted out to the private sector to save money, this should be done next.

The entire key to running a government is to maintain levels of public services while managing the costs of doing so. There are indeed ways of reducing government spending as I have already stated, but to cut into services without trimming the fat first is a very common mistake.

Interesting points. Thanks.

[madmax]

Which explains the alleged wage disparity. I suggest private sector employee's fight tooth and nail to retain their wages and benifits if not increase them. I suggest they may find unionization will improve their productivity in this regard.

Private sector Unionization is on the decline both in membership and with regards to increasing wages and benefits for employees. While I do not argue that Private Sector value added Union employees have higher productivity levels according to all industry studies, the Industries to which these productivity benefits are achieved vs non union workforce are leaving. It doesn't matter if the Union puts the company in a position to become more productive, if the bottom line can be achieved elsewhere, cheaper through globalizations increased Free Trade agreements. Companies require higher productivity of the Union Labour and also require cuts to wages, pensions, holidays in order to remain competitive with global competition, even if the competition comes from within the same Company.

Fighting tooth and nail, puts both the private sector company and the employee in jeapardy of losing their already precarious operations, and proves fruitless. The best thing Unions have been doing is fighting to keep Jobs in Canada, which I have seen first hand, while the government tries to aid companies in relocating operations.

The Pubic Sector is a valueable service, but their membership, leaders and employers (the Government) all need a reality check.

As this trend, and it is only the beginning, becomes more mainstream among the private sector, the pressure is going to come very strong to create a level of "PAY EQUITY" between the public sector and private sector wages.

[madmax]

Like General Motors? Good comparison.

Funny how the world turns isn't it.

[madmax]

Of course the poll is intentionally provocative, but the point it raises is still valid.

Yes it is intentional. Thanks for picking up on that.

When people everywhere are having to cut back, businesses are struggling, and thousands of people are losing their jobs, OF COURSE people whose salaries are paid by those taxpayers should get thier wages and benefits cut back. In fact, govts should look there for cost savings first before anything else. There is no way in hell that someone who is paid from my tax money should have any expectation of anything. Cut the salary, cut the benefits, cut the pensions, eliminate sick days and personal days, reduce the levels of management, and eliminate redundant positions.

Much appreciated.

Thanks for highlighting the discussion

A 25% pay cut all at once is a little hash though. I mean, I lost more than that when the US dollar tanked, and I've made out OK, but I still wouldn't wish that on anyone. A gradual 2-3% per year cut ought to do it.

I lost more when the Canadian Dollar rose ...... I am ok now

[Argus]

Where do you live? Sweden, France?

A person in your position is unlikely to be in a Union if in the private sector. I am not certain how many Unionized bean counters exist, but I haven't met any outside of the public sector.

Well then, the answer is to organize into unions in order for them to improve their wages and benefits.

[Argus]

Like General Motors? Good comparison.

The problem with General Motors is not, principally, their labour force, but weak, incompetent management. It's funny how people mock management practices in the public service, but rarely acknowledge the same forces at play in the private sector. The larger the organization, the more heavily bureaucratized it's going to be.

[Argus]

Companies require higher productivity of the Union Labour and also require cuts to wages, pensions, holidays in order to remain competitive with global competition, even if the competition comes from within the same Company

There is no way we can ever be competitive with the labour costs of third world nations, so there isn't a lot of point in trying. Not unless we want to turn Canada into a third-world country.

Fighting tooth and nail, puts both the private sector company and the employee in jeapardy of losing their already precarious operations, and proves fruitless. The best thing Unions have been doing is fighting to keep Jobs in Canada, which I have seen first hand, while the government tries to aid companies in relocating operations.

Losing jobs overseas is a problem we've experienced for some years. There are ways to combat that, such as lowering payroll taxes and shifting the burden onto other forms of corporate taxation. I'd personally not mind going the route of some Asian countries either, and making it so complex and difficult and expensive to import products from certain parts of the world that it added significantly to the price. What the hell; Japan, China and South Korea do it to us. Why not do it back?

But lowering our wages and benefits is a fools choice in that direction because there will always be somewhere with vastly cheaper labour. And abandoning our work-lives to the mercies of tender private sector employers like Wal-Mart is a non starter. We actually need more union representation, not less.

As this trend, and it is only the beginning, becomes more mainstream among the private sector, the pressure is going to come very strong to create a level of "PAY EQUITY" between the public sector and private sector wages.

I know realism isn't your strong point, but we've been through recessions before. There will be no cut to public sector pay envelopes. You're just going to have to live with the current situation. The Public Sector wants to be a preferred employer in order to attract better employees. That's been a longstanding principle that isn't going to change.

[Smallc]

When people everywhere are having to cut back, businesses are struggling, and thousands of people are losing their jobs, OF COURSE people whose salaries are paid by those taxpayers should get thier wages and benefits cut back.

Yes, and all of these cutbacks will go a long way to increasing foreclosures, repossessions, and just a basic continuation of this current economic downward spiral. The government is in no danger of having to file for bankruptcy. We shouldn't be punishing the public sector workers for, well, no reason whatsoever.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

If the truth were known by citizens, and they had the ability to dictate to the government a course of action, we would be pulling out of unfair trade agreements. Free trade has harmed our economy, it has harmed our citizens, it has harmed our employees. On the other hand the business sector has made millions at our expense. Thank God business can't vote!

[gordiecanuk]

Lets see if this has any steam

I'm not voting...both options strike me as draconian.

[eyeball]

I'd rather see senior bureacrats take a 25% cut in their ability to operate in secrecy but I'd probably increase their salaries given the higher level of responsibility they'd have to take for the decisions they make.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Would it not be more sensible to make the elected representative more accountable and reduce the number of bureaucrats altogether? It seems to me that we could start reforming politics in this nation by eliminating the number of patronage appointments. That would mean that the folks in charge of a department would actually be held to account at election time. Go over budget and face the music.

[Argus]

I'd rather see senior bureacrats take a 25% cut in their ability to operate in secrecy but I'd probably increase their salaries given the higher level of responsibility they'd have to take for the decisions they make.

The secrecy level of the public services is almost entirely due to the demand of the politicians that nothing be done or said or written or even suggested which might cause political difficulties for the politicians.

[eyeball]

Would it not be more sensible to make the elected representative more accountable...

Lets just take this one step at a time. Making representatives accountable could have a terrible effect on the economy, it could possibly even destroy it as we know it.