Public service unions....

[fellowtraveller]

There are two main reasons why Canada Post is profitable, and the first is why they continue to exist:

1. A monopoly on delivery of first class mail....... Ever wonder why companies like utilities don't deliver hundreds of thousands of bills every month, knowing that they can do it far cheaper than $.52 each? Because they cannot legally do so. Canada Post whines that they are also obliged to deliver letters to unprofiatble small and remote places, but the cost to them is nothing compared to the legislated gravy train of first class lettermail.

2. When they cut ties with govt, Canada Post inherited several billions bucks worht of real property, plant infrastructure and rolling stock. No debt to start, an enviable position.

Edited December 17, 2008 by fellowtraveller

[Wild Bill]

It doesn't matter whether unionized or not. Paycuts are what is on the table. 25% being the norm, and the elimination of benefits and pension.

There are some non unionized and unionized places bucking this trend.

On the whole, many new companies, the wages are between $9 and $14 with no benefits or pensions. Wages in my region are falling faster then you can say jack the bear.

However, what people might be overlooking is what casual and temp posties receive. I have no idea if these people are taken into account, or are left on the outside looking in.

I know a number of companies with similar numbers to these.. who pay their core 200 workers between $14-$16 and the other 800 workers get $10-$13.30 for the same work, with no benefits or holiday pay.

Private sector wages in Ontario, from what i am seeing are dropping from 30% to 50% for anyone laid off in the past year. $20,000 to $30,000 is what you are looking at, if you can get a job that is full time.

People with University and managerial skills in pharma....

well .... I don't consider this high paying

Pharma companies are not in economic hardship. But wages are down.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Public Sector face a minimum 30% pay cut or be threatened with one in the future. Same for contract or any other government position.

I think the Senate should have their wages rolled back to under $60,000.

I am not suggesting that the posties shouldn't be asking for an increase, I am suggesting that the entire public sector wake up and look at what is happening in the private sector in Ontario which employs more people and provides more tax revenue then any other province.

Not everywhere has Fort McMurray wages

My wife works for our City. I don't know what is the average wage for a CUPE city employee. I know that professionals like nurses, dental hygienists and the like make in the $40's, much lower than the private sector but the benefits must also be considered. I would guess that the 'unskilled' workers are in the $30's.

Meanwhile, the number of managers making well over $100k is astounding! What's more, we have had things happen like a serverance package of $972K(!) for the head of hospitals, who left VOLUNTARILY YET GOT TO CLAIM SEVERANCE!. This instances have become common these past few years, inflating the total wage budget. There also seems to be million dollar wrongful dismissal claims from managers improperly fired a couple of times every year.

When discussing such issues it's important not to paint with too broad a brush. Given the pay scale established where my wife works, if you rolled back the managerial wages to the levels you're arguing then to be consistent with the yardstick my wife would have to PAY THEM to be allowed to work there!

[Goat Boy©]

My wife works for our City. I don't know what is the average wage for a CUPE city employee. I know that professionals like nurses, dental hygienists and the like make in the $40's, much lower than the private sector but the benefits must also be considered. I would guess that the 'unskilled' workers are in the $30's.

Meanwhile, the number of managers making well over $100k is astounding! What's more, we have had things happen like a serverance package of $972K(!) for the head of hospitals, who left VOLUNTARILY YET GOT TO CLAIM SEVERANCE!. This instances have become common these past few years, inflating the total wage budget. There also seems to be million dollar wrongful dismissal claims from managers improperly fired a couple of times every year.

When discussing such issues it's important not to paint with too broad a brush. Given the pay scale established where my wife works, if you rolled back the managerial wages to the levels you're arguing then to be consistent with the yardstick my wife would have to PAY THEM to be allowed to work there!

Everybody get's paid too much. You think nurses in the states make more than $40/hr? Typical response, "yeah but they....." Wonder why we have partisan politics. It's everybody!

[Chuck U. Farlie]

While I am not sure if I agree with the current CPC strike or not, I have made one observation:

On almost everything that was offered by CPC, PSAC was willing to accept. They did not ask for more money or more time off or more sick days.

Basically they just wanted a new contract the same as their old contract - nothing more, but nothing less.

I am not in PSAC, but I know how I would feel if my boss came up to me one day and said "Business is fine, we are profitable and in fact are doing more business than ever before, but as of next week you will only get half of your sick days every year... (or less money... or a reduction in vacation days, etc, etc...)"

This is not a company going into bankruptcy, and so the union feels it should not offer concessions.

from the PSAC website, they think that the lose of these benefits would be a precursor to deregulation:

The Threat of Deregulation

As you may know, the previous government launched a Strategic Review of Canada Post Corporation. Deregulation is one of the issues being looked at.

One of the major criteria for running a profitable and deregulated private corporation is a reduction in liabilities for the balance sheet. The unused sick leave banked by our members can be viewed as a financial liability to potential purchasers, and that is why we believe that CPC is so anxious to force this program on our members.

Deregulation also includes the removal of Canada Post's exclusive privilege to deliver letter mail. The “exclusive privilege” is a fundamental feature of our post office. Canada Post holds the exclusive privilege so that it can finance its universal service obligation – i.e. the obligation to provide affordable service to everyone, no matter where they live.

Removing the exclusive privilege will erode Canada Post's revenue base, and could put the universal service obligation at risk. Rural and remote areas, where it is more expensive to provide postal services, could be at risk.

Personally I think deregulating or privatizing Canada Post would be a big mistake. For one thing, it is profitable and has made a profit for the past 13 years.

Also... a private post office might work well enough in a small densely populated country, but I don't think it would work well in Canada. Very many small towns throughout Canada would have no mail service what-so-ever as the cost would be too great for a private company.

[madmax]

Yeah. Junk mail, flyers & and political propaganda. Why can't the environmentalists go after that? I mean it goes straight from the mailbox to the recycling bin, why bother cutting down the tree in the first place?

The tree is already cut down for other purposes.

From wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper

Paper is thin material mainly used for writing upon, printing upon or packaging. It is produced by pressing together moist fibers, typically cellulose pulp derived from wood, rags or grasses, and drying them into flexible sheets

and it can be recycled.

There are two major mechanical pulps, thermomechanical pulp (TMP) and mechanical pulp. The latter is known in the USA as groundwood pulp. In the TMP process, wood is chipped and then fed into large steam-heated refiners where the chips are squeezed and fibreized between two steel discs. In the groundwood process, debarked logs are fed into grinders where they are pressed against rotating stones and fibreized. Mechanical pulping does not remove the lignin, so the yield is very high, >95%, but also causes paper made from this pulp to yellow and become brittle over time. Mechanical pulps have rather short fibre lengths and produce weak paper. Although large amounts of electrical energy are required to produce mechanical pulp, it costs less than chemical pulp.

Recycled paper

Paper recycling processes can use either chemical or mechanical pulp. By mixing with water and applying mechanical action the hydrogen bonds in the paper can be broken and fibres separated again. Most recycled paper contains a proportion of virgin fibre in the interests of quality.

There are three main classifications of recycled fibre:.

Mill Broke or Internal Mill Waste — this incorporates any substandard or grade-change paper made within the paper mill which then goes back into the manufacturing system to be repulped back into paper. Such out-of-specification paper is not sold and is therefore often not classified as genuine reclaimed recycled fibre. However, most paper mills have been recycling their own waste fibre for many years, long before recycling become popular.

Preconsumer Waste — this is offcuts and processing waste, such as guillotine trims and envelope blank waste. This waste is generated outside the paper mill and could potentially go to landfill, and is a genuine recycled fibre source. Also includes deinked preconsumer (recycled material that has been printed but did not reach its intended end use, such as waste from printers and unsold publications). [8]

Postconsumer waste — this is fibre from paper which has been used for its intended end use and would include office waste, magazine papers and newsprint. As the vast majority of this paper has been printed (either digitally or by more conventional means such as litho or gravure), it will either be recycled as printed paper or go through a de-inking process first.

Recycled Papers can be made from 100% recycled materials or blended with virgin pulp. Recycled papers are (generally) not as strong nor as bright as papers made from virgin pulp.

[madmax]

There are two main reasons why Canada Post is profitable, and the first is why they continue to exist:

1. A monopoly on delivery of first class mail....... Ever wonder why companies like utilities don't deliver hundreds of thousands of bills every month, knowing that they can do it far cheaper than $.52 each?

No they cannot deliver the mail far cheaper then .52cents. Don't fool yourself with that nonsense.

And yes the government has a monopoly. I don't know of any courier companies who want to handle general mail. We got the gravy back in the 80s and once upon a time it was quite lucrative for everyone including numerous small operations.

[madmax]

My wife works for our City. I don't know what is the average wage for a CUPE city employee. I know that professionals like nurses, dental hygienists and the like make in the $40's, much lower than the private sector but the benefits must also be considered. I would guess that the 'unskilled' workers are in the $30's.

Sounds like your wife is overpaid by your statements.

[Argus]

Um, they have been offered a raise of more than 10% at a time when inflation is nearing zero and we are being warned about deflation. How many non-union employees are getting a raise at all these days? A pay cut is more likely unless it is a layoff.

That's fine, but the strike is not about the raise. It's about sick leave.

Their existing sick leave program is ridiculous - an employee can bank unused sick days indefinitely and can potentially book off sick for a year or more at full pay before retirement.

Hmm, the thing which struck me about this column was that first, he claims that the employees on average use their entire sick leave every year, or almost all. He says they get 15 days, and on average use 14.8 days..... so tell me how it is he then complains that over a third of them have already banked 200 days worth of sick leave? To bank that much you have to have worked for years with very, very few days off.

Their sick leave, btw, is standard for employees at all levels of government, including teachers and medical workers.

[Argus]

Why should they receive a raise?

Most such raises are designed merely to offset anticipated rises in inflation. In other words, they're not raises, just keeping things as they are.

[Argus]

It doesn't matter whether unionized or not. Paycuts are what is on the table. 25% being the norm, and the elimination of benefits and pension.

Can you perhaps give us some examples?

[Argus]

I think the whole consept of banking what is in effect an insurance is ludicrous. If you son't get sick, thank the lord. If you call in sick and are seen at the ball game, thank a lawyer.

Of course it's an insurance. And if it's handled properly, few people will ever use it all anyway. But if you have a heart attack, or get cancer, you'd be damned glad to have those 200 days of sick leave. And if there is no way to accumulate it then, human nature being what it is, people will use it up every year, probably actually increasing sick leave costs to the employer.

The problem is that some people - in my experience, usually managers and executives - will wind up going on "stress leave" or some such nonsense a year before retirement, using up all their banked sick leave. For the most part management winks at this sort of thing, because for the most part management are the ones who take advantage of it. The answer isn't to stop sick leave being banked but to stop the process of using it from being abused.

[M.Dancer]

Of course it's an insurance. And if it's handled properly, few people will ever use it all anyway. But if you have a heart attack, or get cancer, you'd be damned glad to have those 200 days of sick leave.

After 2 weeks they shopuld go on disability. period.

[Smallc]

After 2 weeks they shopuld go on disability. period.

IF they have the sick days, they should be able to use them.

[guyser]

IF they have the sick days, they should be able to use them.

No , dancer is right, they should go on short term disability. A heart attack is a disability and they can be on there for three months (normally) and then they are moved to long term disability.

By using sick days, they cost the company , by using the STD or LTD, it costs the insurance company and that is exactly what they paid for.

Banking days is a scam. The private sector, for the most part , doesnt allow it. Use it or lose it.

If the strike is for COLA, then fine, but a raise is a raise, no matter how you cut it. And frankly , no one else is getting a raise this year, why do they think they should?

[M.Dancer]

IF they have the sick days, they should be able to use them.

Sure....lets say 1 day a month....12 days in total.....you haven't uised any in the previous 12 months? Congrats, you can get sick, receive full pay for 12 days....then file a claim and get your diseased body out of my office...

[Smallc]

Sure....lets say 1 day a month....12 days in total.....you haven't uised any in the previous 12 months? Congrats, you can get sick, receive full pay for 12 days....then file a claim and get your diseased body out of my office...

Yeah, I agree with what your saying I guess, its just stupid that they allow them to collect so many of the things in the first place if they aren't supposed to use them for long periods.

[M.Dancer]

Yeah, I agree with what your saying I guess, its just stupid that they allow them to collect so many of the things in the first place if they aren't supposed to use them for long periods.

I've worked at places that changed the rules so that they made you use your vacation after 24 months or you lose the lot....some were banking 5 days a year for 5 years for that big trip to whereever...sound nice and sopunds fair, unless you're a manager and one of your key people tells you they are taking 12 weeks off...heck, I got 3 weeks back then...wasn't allowed to take more than 2 at a time...

[capricorn]

Of course it's an insurance. And if it's handled properly, few people will ever use it all anyway.

I confess when I was a public servant, I called in sick to care for a sick child. I only started accumulating sick leave when my kids were grown. Mind you, that was before parental leave was negotiated into the contract. These days management is more understanding of the needs of parents.

But if you have a heart attack, or get cancer, you'd be damned glad to have those 200 days of sick leave.

In those dire circumstances, a lot of employees rely on the employer's disability insurance. There's also sick benefits paid under employment insurance.

And if there is no way to accumulate it then, human nature being what it is, people will use it up every year, probably actually increasing sick leave costs to the employer.

There really isn't any incentive to accumulate sick leave. I would support paying employees for unused sick leave days at the end of the year. I have heard there are contracts that contain such a provision. That would guarantee that malingerers would mend their ways, then attendance, productivity and morale would improve. In addition, the payment for unused sick leave is taxable, so the treasury profits from it.

The problem is that some people - in my experience, usually managers and executives - will wind up going on "stress leave" or some such nonsense a year before retirement, using up all their banked sick leave. For the most part management winks at this sort of thing, because for the most part management are the ones who take advantage of it.

How many of those managers fail to deduct sick leave taken from the days they have in the bank? I've seen it done. And the higher you are up in the chain, the easier it is to do.

The answer isn't to stop sick leave being banked but to stop the process of using it from being abused.

Abuse can only be stopped if there is some incentive to do so. Money is the best motivator. That's why I advocate paying employees for unused sick leave at the end of the year. When you think about it, sick leave is a negotiated benefit and it does have monetary value.

[fellowtraveller]

No they cannot deliver the mail far cheaper then .52cents. Don't fool yourself with that nonsense.

And yes the government has a monopoly. I don't know of any courier companies who want to handle general mail. We got the gravy back in the 80s and once upon a time it was quite lucrative for everyone including numerous small operations.

Easily profitable, the math is very simple. Flyers come to every household in your city for $.03 to $.05. Don't fool yourself with that Canada POst nonsense. First class mail is absolutely essential to Canada Post, because it makes them plenty of dough. That is why they protect the monopoly, that is why they have the monopoly.

The govt allowws it successive govts allow it, because it is easier not to rock the boat that will cost them votes.

Canada Psot has no compucntions about the thousands of post offices they closed or privatised in the 80s, their gravy is in distributing first class mail.

And that same gravy is there for the private sector, without all the useless dross in both unions and management at Canada Post.

[Mr.Canada]

IF they have the sick days, they should be able to use them.

Yes use them but not save them year after year, that's insane.

I get 10 sick days and if I don't use them all we get paid out for the ones we don't use at years end. This is how is should be.

If they don't get back to work soon Harper should step in and fire them all and rehire new people.

Edited December 18, 2008 by Mr.Canada

[Argus]

Sure....lets say 1 day a month....12 days in total.....you haven't uised any in the previous 12 months? Congrats, you can get sick, receive full pay for 12 days....then file a claim and get your diseased body out of my office...

And together now, let's all sing "Weeeelll I'm a Yankee doodle dandy....!"

Yes, this is the American perspective. Work your ass off, no holidays, no sick leave, no complaining about anything or your ass is out the door.

Oddly, though, the Europeans seem to manage higher productivity with grossly superior benefits, especially in terms of sick leave, paid vacations, and state holidays, than we or the Americans. European companies seem to be reasonably profitable despite this.

And we, as Canadians, somehow dissaprove of this? Is it not better for society as a whole that people get 6-8 weeks paid vacation every year, with plenty of sick leave and other benefits? Which societies are friendlier to children, families, and to the desire of individuals to enjoy life, that of Europe or that of the United States?

Edited December 18, 2008 by Argus

[madmax]

He says they get 15 days, and on average use 14.8 days..... so tell me how it is he then complains that over a third of them have already banked 200 days worth of sick leave? To bank that much you have to have worked for years with very, very few days off.

Their sick leave, btw, is standard for employees at all levels of government, including teachers and medical workers.

15 DAYS OFF OF PAID SICK LEAVE??? AND BANKABLE!!!

The vast majority of people are questioned at 1 or 2 days off. And they aren't paid for missing work.

Argus, isn't it time to give up these cushy perks. There is no reason for government workers to get 15 days off with pay. Or be able to bank these days to have a close to a year off work.

Private sector workers, particularly fulltime workers forced to work for Temp agencies in a permanent position don't even get holiday pay, let alone sick time off.

[madmax]

Most such raises are designed merely to offset anticipated rises in inflation. In other words, they're not raises, just keeping things as they are.

Why should they get a raise when people are taking pay cuts?

Heres just a quick google

FedEx profit up, but cuts pay, costs citing economyReuters, Thursday December 18 2008

Pay cuts at Motorola

December 17 2008 - 1:15 pm ET | Phil Carson | RCR Wireless News

Comment on this story

Motorola Inc. said today it would freeze pension plans and some salaries and suspend company contributions to employees’ 401(k) plans. The company’s co-CEOs said they would take a 25% cut in base salary.

And some more

ECP's 86 unionized workers -- members of United Steelworkers Local 1-500 ---have been on strike since August. Operation Lift's 25 drivers and dispatchers -- represented by Amalgamated Transit Union 685 -- have been on the picket line since September.

Neither dispute seems headed for resolution any time soon.

ECP, citing a downturn in the economy, is asking its workers to take a 25 per cent pay cut. Yet, it's still paying bonuses to executives, said Don Bowen, vice-president of the steelworkers local.

"How do you justify that when you're trying to take money away from workers?"

CLOSE TO A DEAL

Kelly Eden, a member of the ATU negotiating team, said the union thought it was close to a deal Tuesday night. But, when they returned to the table after taking a supper break, they discovered that Operation Lift negotiators had left the hotel where meetings were being held.

"It doesn't look like we'll have the buses on the road for Christmas."

The situation is even bleaker for Alumetco's 85 employees -- members of Canadian Auto Workers Local 397. Workers were locked out in mid-November and found out last week that their jobs were gone for good when the company announced last week that the Garden Avenue plant was closing.

Argus, you make to much money, and is the Public Sector in tune with what is going on.... I think not.

Many places 25% cuts are on the table. 16% cuts have been offered in other profitable private sector operations and rejected.

Edited December 18, 2008 by madmax

[madmax]

Can you perhaps give us some examples?

Yes, and you don't ahve to try very hard.

[madmax]

No , dancer is right, they should go on short term disability. A heart attack is a disability and they can be on there for three months (normally) and then they are moved to long term disability.

By using sick days, they cost the company , by using the STD or LTD, it costs the insurance company and that is exactly what they paid for.

Banking days is a scam. The private sector, for the most part , doesnt allow it. Use it or lose it.

I feel very stressed by this...

I concur with Guyser.