Public service unions....

[madmax]

When you think about it, sick leave is a negotiated benefit and it does have monetary value.

It is a negotiated benefit. And it is one that is no longer with the times. That is why it is in dispute. The Union and its members believe they require this benefit. The Company believes it is wasteful.

Not being paid, when you are sick is one heck of a motivator.

Not being fired is something many people have to fight, simply because they were sick.

There are other ways to do this, and the government employees, have paychecks perks and benefits far exceeding what the majority of people in the private sector face.

It wouldn't stand out so much if many workers, union or not, in the private sector held similar contracts or agreements. But this is not the case. If lucky private sector workers have sick benefits through insurance.

Many are 2 weeks before you see a nickle.

Its expected that people might be sick as many as 9 days a year. But there is no reason to pay people because they are sick a day here and there or less then 2 weeks.

[madmax]

Easily profitable, the math is very simple. Flyers come to every household in your city for $.03 to $.05.

You don't sort flyers, like you sort mail. I spent many years in the courier business during its glory period. Flyers are for kids, like the newspaper. Flyers are an extra pickup for the post office in the .03 to .05 range and they don't have alot of competition and Flyers are not protected. Mail is a royal pain in the ass.

And that same gravy is there for the private sector, without all the useless dross in both unions and management at Canada Post.

You have no idea what you are talking about. A courier company with minimum wage help, isn't going to be able to deliver the mail cheaper, especially if its open up to numerous competitors. Either the costs go up, and up dramatically or they all lose money.

[madmax]

I get 10 sick days and if I don't use them all we get paid out for the ones we don't use at years end. This is how is should be.

Why should you get paid for 10 sick days? You should only be paid for the days you work and are productive. Don't you get holidays? Use your holiday money to be off sick.

[madmax]

And together now, let's all sing "Weeeelll I'm a Yankee doodle dandy....!"

Yes, this is the American perspective. Work your ass off, no holidays, no sick leave, no complaining about anything or your ass is out the door.

This is our closest competitor and trading partner. We do little business with Europe and therefore must match closer to US standards. Yes, work your ass off Argus.

Oddly, though, the Europeans seem to manage higher productivity with grossly superior benefits, especially in terms of sick leave, paid vacations, and state holidays, than we or the Americans. European companies seem to be reasonably profitable despite this.

And we, as Canadians, somehow dissaprove of this? Is it not better for society as a whole that people get 6-8 weeks paid vacation every year, with plenty of sick leave and other benefits? Which societies are friendlier to children, families, and to the desire of individuals to enjoy life, that of Europe or that of the United States?

My my my, aren't we all good socialists now.

[Smallc]

Why should you get paid for 10 sick days? You should only be paid for the days you work and are productive. Don't you get holidays? Use your holiday money to be off sick.

Ummm, no. If anything, with the recent recognition of the importance of mental health, people should get more in the way of paid sick days.

[Argus]

15 DAYS OFF OF PAID SICK LEAVE??? AND BANKABLE!!!

The vast majority of people are questioned at 1 or 2 days off. And they aren't paid for missing work.

Argus, isn't it time to give up these cushy perks. There is no reason for government workers to get 15 days off with pay. Or be able to bank these days to have a close to a year off work.

Private sector workers, particularly fulltime workers forced to work for Temp agencies in a permanent position don't even get holiday pay, let alone sick time off.

And is that where you think we should be at as a society, madmax? I mean, is that the goal you believe we should be working towards: fewer sick days off for employees, fewer benefits, lower pay, worse working conditions?

[Argus]

Why should they get a raise when people are taking pay cuts?

Heres just a quick google

And some more

Argus, you make to much money, and is the Public Sector in tune with what is going on.... I think not.

Many places 25% cuts are on the table. 16% cuts have been offered in other profitable private sector operations and rejected.

Sorry, but you quoted one place as wanting a 25% pay cut - for the workers, while the executives continue to get fat bonuses. You didn't cite any other place at all where the workers are getting their pay cut. And nothing in Canada at all.

This does not back up your contention that "many places" are cutting worker salaries.

[Argus]

Yes, and you don't ahve to try very hard.

Then do so.

[Argus]

It wouldn't stand out so much if many workers, union or not, in the private sector held similar contracts or agreements. But this is not the case.

And you know this because of your careful study of private sector union agreements?

[Argus]

This is our closest competitor and trading partner. We do little business with Europe and therefore must match closer to US standards. Yes, work your ass off Argus.

My my my, aren't we all good socialists now.

I'm guessing your job is crap. I understand where you're coming from. For a very long time I had crappy jobs with no sick leave and no protection of any kind. I too resented the far better pay and working conditions of unionized workers, especially when they complained about anything. But you know, the answer wasn't to have everyone lower their pay and benefits to mine, but to raise my pay and benefits so I had a more comfortable job with more security.

As I said, productivity is actually higher in Europe. Not everything about Socialism is bad. European health care is far better than what the Americans have, and the societal understandings with regard to taking care of people is far more enlightened.

Honestly, would you not prefer a society in which you got 6-8 weeks paid vacation every year, and didn't have to force yourself to go into work when you had a fever and it was cold and rainy outside?

[OddSox]

Honestly, would you not prefer a society in which you got 6-8 weeks paid vacation every year, and didn't have to force yourself to go into work when you had a fever and it was cold and rainy outside?

Perhaps you should move to Europe...

[Argus]

Perhaps you should move to Europe...

Perhaps you should answer the question.

[Mr.Canada]

Why should you get paid for 10 sick days? You should only be paid for the days you work and are productive. Don't you get holidays? Use your holiday money to be off sick.

It's called negotiation. If you are a union member you have greater negotiating power. If you're on your own and no union you're at the mercy 0f the company and have zero power. We're the ones doing the work not the company therefore together we dictate the terms and conditions that we'll work under or the company will make no money.

[madmax]

It's called negotiation. If you are a union member you have greater negotiating power. If you're on your own and no union you're at the mercy 0f the company and have zero power. We're the ones doing the work not the company therefore together we dictate the terms and conditions that we'll work under or the company will make no money.

It may be called negotiation. And it is time for all Public Sector Union Workers and Management, to give up these costly, unnecessary sick days. You do not make the company money when you are missing work. You are costing the company... this being US the taxpayer, money while you are at home collecting full pay.

Perhaps public sector unions and those in public sector management positions have positioned themselves outside the mainstream private sector unions/ management let alone those unorganized.

Time to completely end the Pensions, Benefits and have paycuts to the public sector and starting asap.

25% cuts immediately.

[madmax]

And is that where you think we should be at as a society, madmax? I mean, is that the goal you believe we should be working towards: fewer sick days off for employees, fewer benefits, lower pay, worse working conditions?

What are you talking about? I am speaking of the Public Sector. Not Society, just a group of workers who should not be paid for being sick. I am not saying fewer sick days. I am saying NO PAY FOR SICK DAYS. Lower pay, of course, most other people in the private sector are adjusting. There are entire centres set up to adjust people to this new lifestyle. The old ways, are no longer sustainable.

Who mentioned anything about worse working conditions?

Public Sector Workers make more then most in the private sector. The CPC government has overspent and must make cuts. Public Sector workers could easily handle a 25% cut to pay. Pensions should be completely eliminated and the employee can contribute to their own pension plan.

Cuts to wages are necessary. Cuts to sick days, is merely eliminating a luxury.

Why should Public Sector employee receive luxuries that make no sense?

[madmax]

And you know this because of your careful study of private sector union agreements?

YUP!

How far do you want to carry the discussion...... I am for hire by the way.

[Topaz]

Are talking provincial or federal public workers or both? Does it included members of government? Look at their pay, their benefits, they don't have to wait for healthcare, their expense accounts, all paid by you and me.

[Argus]

What are you talking about? I am speaking of the Public Sector. Not Society, just a group of workers who should not be paid for being sick. I am not saying fewer sick days. I am saying NO PAY FOR SICK DAYS. Lower pay, of course, most other people in the private sector are adjusting.

Given the public sector sets the bar, then you are calling for everyone to earn less money, work longer hours, get fewer benefits and have fewer rights. And your reasoning is that - uh - this is going to make Canada a better place to live and raise kids, right?

Maybe we should take away public health care too. Let sick people die. I mean, otherwise it's costing the taxpayer money, right?

Public Sector Workers make more then most in the private sector

.

In point of fact, the clerical ranks make more than their counterparts in the private sector. When you get up the ladder, though, the professionals within the government, that is, IT and finance staff and other technical and professional people tend to earn less than their counterparts in the private sector. They stay because of the benefits and job security.

The CPC government has overspent and must make cuts. Public Sector workers could easily handle a 25% cut to pay. Pensions should be completely eliminated and the employee can contribute to their own pension plan.

Cuts to wages are necessary. Cuts to sick days, is merely eliminating a luxury.

Why should Public Sector employee receive luxuries that make no sense?

Gee, because if you think the public sector is inefficient now, wait till you see what it's like when you're paying minimum wages with no benefits or pensions. Lots of the better people get out now as it is because they can earn far more in the private sector. Take my agency, for example. You think people with expert, inside knowledge of tax policy and tax operations are going to stay working for the government with no pensions or sick days and a big drop in pay? Nope. They'll all quit and go to work for accounting firms to help their clients avoid paying taxes. And they'll have little difficulty because their replacements will be people who can barely write their names and have little to no understanding of tax law. The net cost to the government would, of course, be billions in lost revenue. Gooood idea!!

Instead of being sullen and jealous of unionized people with benefits maybe you should try to get a better job.

[Mr.Canada]

It may be called negotiation. And it is time for all Public Sector Union Workers and Management, to give up these costly, unnecessary sick days. You do not make the company money when you are missing work. You are costing the company... this being US the taxpayer, money while you are at home collecting full pay.

Perhaps public sector unions and those in public sector management positions have positioned themselves outside the mainstream private sector unions/ management let alone those unorganized.

Time to completely end the Pensions, Benefits and have paycuts to the public sector and starting asap.

25% cuts immediately.

You sound like a manager. So in your world no one is allowed to get sick and if one is they should be penalized for it? That makes no sense.

We've come a long way as a workforce, this isn't 1844.

[madmax]

Are talking provincial or federal public workers or both? Does it included members of government? Look at their pay, their benefits, they don't have to wait for healthcare, their expense accounts, all paid by you and me.

It's a Federal Forum. I also include Federal Politicians and Senators. They need a paycut.

You can start a similar thread in the Provincial Forums.

[madmax]

Given the public sector sets the bar, then you are calling for everyone to earn less money, work longer hours, get fewer benefits and have fewer rights. And your reasoning is that - uh - this is going to make Canada a better place to live and raise kids, right?

Public Sector employees do not set the bar for anyone other then Public Sector Employees. Public sector contracts have no effect on the increase of wages and benefits in the private sector. Apparently, public sector employees such as yourself, suggets the only way to make Canada better is to keep your wages high.

I disagree. THese high wages are resulting in an elite group, paid for by the taxpayer.

Maybe we should take away public health care too. Let sick people die. I mean, otherwise it's costing the taxpayer money, right?

Sure, your Tommy Douglas now. LOL.

In point of fact, the clerical ranks make more than their counterparts in the private sector. When you get up the ladder, though, the professionals within the government, that is, IT and finance staff and other technical and professional people tend to earn less than their counterparts in the private sector. They stay because of the benefits and job security.

Easily replaceable and for alot less money. Many people in these fields would be willing to work in the public sector for 25% less and without the paid sick pay.

Gee, because if you think the public sector is inefficient now, wait till you see what it's like when you're paying minimum wages with no benefits or pensions.

Minimum wage? Who said anything about minimum wage. And no company paid benefits and pensions is not only the norm, but what companies that have them are shedding. A 25% pay cut is not going to put you, yes you Argus, anywhere near minimum wage. Try another avenue.

Lots of the better people get out now as it is because they can earn far more in the private sector. Take my agency, for example. You think people with expert, inside knowledge of tax policy and tax operations are going to stay working for the government with no pensions or sick days and a big drop in pay? Nope.

I have heard that over 100 times from management staff. Funny thing is the attrition rate is marginal when the action plan is implemented. Same for the general workforce.

They'll all quit and go to work for accounting firms to help their clients avoid paying taxes. And they'll have little difficulty because their replacements will be people who can barely write their names and have little to no understanding of tax law. The net cost to the government would, of course, be billions in lost revenue. Gooood idea!!

Sure they will, everyone will quit.... , it just doesn't happen. And if you believe that your job is not replaceable or that competent people cannot be found, willing to work for less, you are fooling yourself.

Instead of being sullen and jealous of unionized people with benefits maybe you should try to get a better job.

I like my profession

[madmax]

You sound like a manager. So in your world no one is allowed to get sick and if one is they should be penalized for it? That makes no sense.

People get sick. They shouldn't be paid for being off work.

We've come a long way as a workforce, this isn't 1844.

The public sector wages, benefits, pension and paid sick pay are out of line with mainstream Canadians working in 2008/09.

Edited December 22, 2008 by madmax