Senate appointments

[LesterDC]

Something I believe in. The provinces got rid of all their upper houses. Time for the Feds to do the same thing.

The Senate is a good federal concept.. We just need to reform it

[jdobbin]

jdobbin, is every single thing that Harper or the Tories do wrong?

Is everything they do just brilliant, simply brilliant! Some seem to think so.

I supported Harper announcement on building three ice breakers for the north only to announce slush breakers which is not what he promised. I supported his Throne Speech that promised to concentrate on the economy and avoid hyperpartisan behaviour only to see an economic statement that was light on the concentrating on the economy and heavy on the hyperpartisanship.

I simply don't trust Harper. At all.

You seem to attack them no matter what they do.

And some seem to support him no matter what he does.

Is it that this is a political forum and everyone is supposed to be hyper-partisan?

Just curious.

This is a political forum and if you want people to agree with you there are Tory forums where people will agree with everything you say.

[jdobbin]

The Senate is a good federal concept.. We just need to reform it

By opening the Constitution? Simply having it being elected won't solve the problems with it.

[jdobbin]

So how would law be fine tuned and passed? In committee? Or would the house have the final say thus once it passes a series of votes it's made into law?

It will work like it does in every province in this province. Do they need an upper house?

[Mr.Canada]

Is everything they do just brilliant, simply brilliant! Some seem to think so.

I supported Harper announcement on building three ice breakers for the north only to announce slush breakers which is not what he promised. I supported his Throne Speech that promised to concentrate on the economy and avoid hyperpartisan behaviour only to see an economic statement that was light on the concentrating on the economy and heavy on the hyperpartisanship.

I simply don't trust Harper. At all.

And some seem to support him no matter what he does.

This is a political forum and if you want people to agree with you there are Tory forums where people will agree with everything you say.

No I want everyone to disagree with me actually. I love confrontation, I tried to join Babble to do m0re of it on a larger scale but they banned me

I just wanted to know weither or not it is customary to be hyper partisan on a political board and you refused to answer.

[Mr.Canada]

It will work like it does in every province in this province. Do they need an upper house?

I'm not sure I haven't read about it much yet. I just wanted to learn how it would work.

[Riverwind]

It will work like it does in every province in this province. Do they need an upper house?

The senate has two roles: regional representation and "sober second thought". You are correct to point out that the latter roles does not seem to be necessary at the provincial level so it should not be necesary at the federal level. However, the (currently unfair) regional representation guarantees are something that no eastern province is willing to give up which means eliminating or reforming the senate is virtually impossible. The best we can hope for is a more open process when it comes to selecting appointees - term limits would be ideal.

[Smallc]

By opening the Constitution?

So how are we supposed to eliminate it. I'm not in favour of elimination. I am in favour of equalization.

[jdobbin]

I'm not sure I haven't read about it much yet. I just wanted to learn how it would work.

Bills go three reading before receiving Royal assent. The committees often put through amendment to improve bills along the way. It doesn't require an upper house to work.

[Mr.Canada]

Bills go three reading before receiving Royal assent. The committees often put through amendment to improve bills along the way. It doesn't require an upper house to work.

This would save a lot of taxpayer money. No more cushy lifetime appointments. Any idea how much this would save?

[LesterDC]

Bills go three reading before receiving Royal assent. The committees often put through amendment to improve bills along the way. It doesn't require an upper house to work.

True.. Some kind of oversight committee could work

[jdobbin]

The best we can hope for is a more open process when it comes to selecting appointees - term limits would be ideal.

Some provinces will not allow elections. The provinces cannot be forced to comply. Many constitutional experts say the amending formula applies in the case of elections. Some of the same experts also say that term limits could be challenged as well.

The 75 year old retirement of Senator was put in place in 1965 prior to the repatriation of the Constitution. I don't know that you could put in term limits without approval of the provinces in an amendment.

So all in all... open the Constitution at your peril. As soon as you do, everything and the kitchen sink gets tossed in and we are Meech Lake/Charlottetown bound.

[jdobbin]

This would save a lot of taxpayer money. No more cushy lifetime appointments. Any idea how much this would save?

Millions.

And perhaps hundreds of millions if we are spared having to spend money on Election Canada electing Senators. Eek.

I'd rather have 5 to 10 at-large seats in the House of Commons for each province.

[jdobbin]

So how are we supposed to eliminate it. I'm not in favour of elimination. I am in favour of equalization.

I don't see how it is possible without opening the Constitution. Few things scare me as much as that word. Except maybe...recession.

[noahbody]

True.. Some kind of oversight committee could work

The premier from each province could select a federal representative. Then the body would better represent and be accountable.

[Smallc]

I don't see how it is possible without opening the Constitution. Few things scare me as much as that word. Except maybe...recession.

So, it would seem the best option is to leave it as is and let the provinces that want to elect do so.

[jdobbin]

The only frame of reference we have where a CPC Senator was in a position to step down as agreed is Fortier. He said he'd step down and he did. Sure n=1, but it also equals 100% of all CPC senators who agreed to step down have stepped down when agreed.

Probably because Fortier wanted even better cabinet jobs such as Finance which Harper would have had a hard time giving to him if he was in the Senate.

I doubt that Harper will have that much influence on 18 appointees to resign their seats if they don't feel like it.

[jdobbin]

So, it would seem the best option is to leave it as is and let the provinces that want to elect do so.

Don't know that that will work either since it doesn't have the force of law on any future government.

[Smallc]

Don't know that that will work either since it doesn't have the force of law on any future government.

That could be a problem I suppose. Maybe the best solution would be to have the Prime Minister stop giving advice on the appointments to the Governor General and simply have her select them as it used to be.

[Riverwind]

Some of the same experts also say that term limits could be challenged as well.

The constitution says nothing about how senators are compensated. Term limits can be introduced by simply reducing the compensation to $0 after 8 years and eliminating any pension benefits. Senators would be required to agree to those terms before they accept the appointment so they cannot claim the terms are unfair after the fact.

[jdobbin]

The constitution says nothing about how senators are compensated. Term limits can be introduced by simply reducing the compensation to $0 after 8 years and eliminating any pension benefits. Senators would be required to agree to those terms before they accept the appointment so they cannot claim the terms are unfair after the fact.

I think that might be opposed...by the Senate.

[jdobbin]

That could be a problem I suppose. Maybe the best solution would be to have the Prime Minister stop giving advice on the appointments to the Governor General and simply have her select them as it used to be.

I doubt any prime minister will give up that right.

[Smallc]

I doubt any prime minister will give up that right.

Well, they don't really have the right, its just something that they've been allowed to do as far as I know.

[Riverwind]

I think that might be opposed...by the Senate.

Existing appointees would have to be grandfathered. New appointees would not have a choice.

I agree with most of your points about the difficulties inherent in senate reform, however, I think you overlook the power of unwritten convention within our constitutional framework. For example, we now have an unwritte convention that constitutional changes must be put to a public vote and that every province has a veto. A future government would find it very tough to ignore these conventions even if they are not written into constitution. For that reason, I think that it is possible to change some of the conventions surrounding the senate without opening the constitution.

[punked]

I think that might be opposed...by the Senate.

I award you best post of the day.