Coalition Government

[Argus]

It is from the school of Harper: the howling of coward, the capricious take no prisoners, politics as war, destroy all others and not merely defeat them type of politics.

As if the Liberals had not been playing that game for forty years!

Harper can beg the Governor General to go to an election instead if he is defeated and she may well do that. However, there is no doubt that he has lost confidence from the House to do anything except that what is in his own self interest. He puts the country second to that.

The Liberals have always put their country second - when it's even that high on their priority list. It's one of the reasons I detest them as a party.

[Argus]

The tin ear Harper shows on things like the downturn where people are afraid for their jobs, afraid for retirement and afraid for their families doesn't offer much reassurance when he himself said the worst is over. Then he said it was a great time to invest at the most volatile time when many people were wondering whether their jobs would still be around.

In other words, trying to reassure the public.

And now, for the financial update from the leader of the Liberal party. Mr. Dion?

"Ahhhh! We're all doomed! Sell everything! Run away! AhhhH! The sky is falling! Kill yourself! Ahhgggghhh!"

Thank you, Mr. Dion.

[madmax]

God, were you born yesterday? One common goal?

Argus, is the heat getting to you? Are you going to lose your cushy government job? If I was born yesterday, I wouldn't be shocked to hear this talk of a coalition government and take it seriously. See I was born the day before yesterday. And if you consider all the information you have given on how different these parties are, it is clear to me, Harper has screwed up terribly to unite this bunch.

Any "coallition" between these three will be like a gay bathhouse - full of people eagerly trying to screw one another at every opportunity.

Mr. Harper was trying to do them all at once. And they wanted a kiss and hug first. Maybe a conservation and date, before he took him to your said bathhouse and offered them the shaft.

Now he wants to kiss and make up.

AH, yes, I have to wonder how those gay analogies work for those CPC Ministers who are GAY.

[madmax]

Harper's government is not going to fall and the Liberals/NDP are not going to form a coalition government.

I think in about a week or so, some comentators and in particular some Liberal politicians are going to realize that they have made utter fools of themselves.

Its too early to tell. What the LPC,NDP and BQ have done is make news. Those that are following the news appear to agree with the coalition. Those who don't follow the news are saying WTF? The CPC attack machine is out and at it, but not making the impact needed. Plus the LPC/NDP spinners are using the same format to counter the attack dogs. It is looking rediculous to see the same talking points come from 30 impartial citizens in a row, word for word. It looks weak and desperate. Which is how a government feels when it is about to fall.

8 Days is an eternity. THis could cool down, or heat up, or backfire worse on the CPC or backfire worse on the LPC/NDP and BQ.

The only thing is, the LPC/NDP and BQ have nothing, absolutely NOTHING to lose by attempting to go for it.

There will only be one political loser = Harper and one real loser = the public from this brinksmanship.

[jdobbin]

It would be an interesting one given you can't afford any advertising - or transportation - or flyers. LOL

True. It is probably why Harper felt he could resort to acting like a goon.

Problem is that he was intending on calling an election before May anyway. So may as well go now rather than wait for the ax after the Liberals have spent a lot on the leadership campaign.

And before you say it is paranoid that the Tories were going to call an election, think on the promise Harper just made Friday that he would not call an election before two years have passed. Why makes that promise? Because it was one of the possibilities that Harper was mulling over even if he got his way on all confidence measures from here till May.

Only a "hyperpartisan" Liberal still emotionally traumatized over the threat to his party's public funding would suggest the economy wasn't a priority of the government.

Only a hyperpartisan Tory would think that this economic update had anything to do in a meaningful way for the economy. Only a hyperpartisan Tory would think that the update wasn't a bend over and you'll take it type of document.

I would rather they take the time to get things right with their "economic incentives" then rush in and throw money around to no purpose. The huge goverment spending and stimulus put out by the Americans, Europeans and Chinese will have some affect, and it's quite prudent to wait a month or so to see what that affect is. It's also prudent to find out what the Americans do about their auto sector - for that will also have a huge influence here on what we do with ours.

If Harper was serious about planning for this and being conciliatory, he would have approached the Opposition as some minorities have done to get proposals on what to do. Instead, he miscalculated and decided not to give an inch and to make sure he gave a large kick at the same time.

The government can act quite nimbly compared to other countries. Harper could have set aside an amount for a stimulus package without spending it and worked with other governments, industry and the Opposition to figure out how to get the best bang. Harper didn't do that. He just said that sometime in the new year a budget will come and that might be after another quarter of bad news.

It isn't throwing money around to set it aside for use. It isn't weakness to bring more people into the decision on how to put the money to good use.

Harper looked at the update as a way to hit others and not open up the process.

I have been critical of the government's budgetary spending, but I, like the great majority of Canadians, have far more confidence in his ability to address the economy than I do in you and yours. Any "economic stimulus" package a Liberal coallition would come up with on the fly would be almost entirely designed to look good, to make it appear the government was doing something - instantly. Any actual impact it might have on the economy would be purely coincidental, and not particularly important, as far as the power grabbers are concerned.

Since Harper intends to continue to act in such a way that is about him, I can't see what sort of confidence he can maintain.

Where is the Harper that tried to find a solution on Afghanistan extension? It seems it disappears when he gets his way and then his group chortles and calls the other side weak. The lack of cooperation on such a major issue is arrogant and single bloody minded.

[jdobbin]

In other words, trying to reassure the public.

In a way that sounded like an investment adviser, not a prime minister.

And now, for the financial update from the leader of the Liberal party. Mr. Dion?

"Ahhhh! We're all doomed! Sell everything! Run away! AhhhH! The sky is falling! Kill yourself! Ahhgggghhh!"

Thank you, Mr. Dion.

And Harper's update was stay tuned and by the way, we are going to destroy all Opposition to us and then call an election when it suits us in the next six months.

[reasonoverpassion]

Angus:

Actually, they don't. You've never been west of Ontario, have you?

I've travelled around Alberta a lot. I know almost no Albertan sees anything wrong with being a petro-state, which is sad to me. The money which is flowing through Alberta should be used to encourage economic diversification. Alberta should be trying to attract high tech industries to end their extreme dependence on a single non-newable resource.

Learn from what is happened to Ontario (dependence on auto industry) learn what happened to Newfoundland (dependence on the fisheries). Think about your future. But this is a voice in the wilderness, isn't it? The old saying "you can't argue with success" holds true here.

[jdobbin]

As if the Liberals had not been playing that game for forty years!

Please. We have not seen the same type of Machiavellian behaviour we have seen in Harper that is obsessed about the absolute destruction of all opposition in our history.

The Liberals have always put their country second - when it's even that high on their priority list. It's one of the reasons I detest them as a party.

Yes, we have seen that detest in many posts.

Edited November 30, 2008 by jdobbin

[Argus]

He indicated that the economy was a priority but not right away. He wants to wait months even though the OECD says that Canada is in a recession now.

The centrepiece of our problems is the US economy. It seems prudent to wait to see what they are doing before taking action. It's not like the world is falling apart up here.

The visceral hatred the Tories have of the Liberals guides their every move. Harper puts his own hatred at the top of every decision and goes to war with the intent not of just defeating but exterminating those that oppose him.

Try to breath slowly, jdobbin. Maybe it'll help slow your pulse.

And Harper is prepared to make those areas suffer for not voting for a Tory government. It is how he works. It is how is MPs think. It is how the Tory party thinks. The recession is a perfect way to stick it to Ontario as we have heard from Tory supporters here.

Yes, those bastards in Ontario! Why, only 40% voted Tory! The Tories got a mere 51 seats from Ontario! The hell with them! It's not like the government needs those 51 seats anyway! They can pick up 51 seats almost anywhere! I think Wal-Mart is having a sale!

You're being irrational. Go down to party HQ, grab some of that incoming stream of public cash, rub it all over yourself, and you'll calm down and feel better.

[Keepitsimple]

Interesting. The Conservatives have now withdrawn public financing of elections from the confidence vote.....but not before getting the opposition parties to admit "it was never about election finances - it was always about the economy". We all know that election financing will come forward in the House again. How will the opposition respond then? When all is said and done, Harper will have shown a comprimise in pulling the Election Financing part of the motion, he will have faced down what will be viewed as an attempted coup, he will have bought time to pragmatically fast-track a budget that addresses the economy with a well thought out stimulus plan that meshes with other G20 initiatives but most importantly - newly inaugerated president Obama......and he will have laid the groundwork for eliminating taxpayer support of Election Financing. Do citizens across Canada really want their money being used to support the Bloc Quebecois' election campaign? So....wait for the dust to settle and the self-righteous noise to die down......and let's see how the parties are viewed after the dominoes fall.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Keepitsimple

[jdobbin]

The centrepiece of our problems is the US economy. It seems prudent to wait to see what they are doing before taking action. It's not like the world is falling apart up here.

Economies run on confidence. We can't fix what has happened in the U.S. and the decisions they make will be for the U.S. only.

Our own industries are asking for help. Harper is rebuffing those industries.

Yes, those bastards in Ontario! Why, only 40% voted Tory! The Tories got a mere 51 seats from Ontario! The hell with them! It's not like the government needs those 51 seats anyway! They can pick up 51 seats almost anywhere! I think Wal-Mart is having a sale!

And the areas that didn't vote Tory are to be smacked to pay for Flaherty's railway like in his riding.

As for your personalizing, it is what I have come to expect time and time again. Why do it?

[jdobbin]

Flaherty now says the budget will come January 27.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Finance Minister Jim Flaherty says the Conservative government will table a budget by the end of January.

"On Tuesday, January 27, we will present a complete, comprehensive budget," he told CTV's Question Period on Sunday.

They certainly didn't seem to be in a rush to announce a budget in their economic update. The hint last week was that it might come in March.

The Tories continue to scrabble about to try and save their government but there is no evidence that they won't continue to act like a horse's hind end on the economy.

[Smallc]

Wow. Backpedal much?

QUOTE(Smallc @ Nov 30 2008, 12:09 AM) *

Every economist I have seen disagrees with you.

Apparently you can't read being as you just proved my point.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Smallc

[Smallc]

And yet, like all the other Liberal and NDP supporters here, you're eager for - the GG to let you into power. None of you shows anything but horror at the thought of actually going to the people in an election - where you would be hammered.

I haven't yet seen a poll asking whether Canadians want the Tories replaced by some bastardized coallition of leftists, but I have little doubt about what the response would be.

Like all of the other Liberals and NDP supporters, I understand how our government system works. Its not about power. Its about the lack of action by the government.

[madmax]

Learn from what is happened to Ontario (dependence on auto industry)

You carry a false myth around when you travel and talk on the net.

[Smallc]

Let's see a list.

I don't know all there names, The one who I know by name is left wing, so I won't bother, and you'll find a way to spin any names that I did find. I an article from the Gazette in one of these threads. I think there's two in there.

[Keepitsimple]

Flaherty now says the budget will come January 27.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

They certainly didn't seem to be in a rush to announce a budget in their economic update. The hint last week was that it might come in March.

The Tories continue to scrabble about to try and save their government but there is no evidence that they won't continue to act like a horse's hind end on the economy.

Dobbin....you're usually pretty accurate - a little partisan - but usually accurate. This time you're off base. In the week preceding the Economic update, Flaherty clearly said he was moving the budget date forward (it's usually in March) because of it's importance. Here are two news reports that support that fact:

Budget advanced to deal with deteriorating economy

Updated Tue. Nov. 25 2008 6:53 AM ET

The Canadian Press

OTTAWA -- Finance Minister Jim Flaherty plans to move up the tabling of the next federal budget in order to introduce a package of infrastructure spending and other measures to stimulate the sagging economy as soon as possible.

Link: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Tue Nov. 25 2008 9:36:57 AM

Flaherty to move up budget tabling to deal with slumping economy

The Canadian Press

Finance Minister Jim Flaherty speaks in Toronto, Monday, Nov. 24, 2008.

Finance Minister Jim Flaherty speaks in Toronto, Monday, Nov. 24, 2008.

OTTAWA — The sagging economy is prompting Finance Minister Jim Flaherty to move up the tabling of the next federal budget.

Flaherty said in a speech last night the economy is heading downhill at a speed that is dictating government action before the usual March budget date.

Link: http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNe...5/?hub=CP24Home

[madmax]

When all is said and done, Harper will have shown a comprimise in pulling the Election Financing part of the motion, he will have faced down what will be viewed as an attempted coup, he will have bought time to pragmatically fast-track a budget that addresses the economy with a well thought out stimulus plan that meshes with other G20 initiatives but most importantly - newly inaugerated president Obama......and he will have laid the groundwork for eliminating taxpayer support of Election Financing. Do citizens across Canada really want their money being used to support the Bloc Quebecois' election campaign? So....wait for the dust to settle and the self-righteous noise to die down......and let's see how the parties are viewed after the dominoes fall.

He has 8 days. Good luck with that.

[August1991]

Its too early to tell. What the LPC,NDP and BQ have done is make news. Those that are following the news appear to agree with the coalition. Those who don't follow the news are saying WTF? The CPC attack machine is out and at it, but not making the impact needed. Plus the LPC/NDP spinners are using the same format to counter the attack dogs. It is looking rediculous to see the same talking points come from 30 impartial citizens in a row, word for word. It looks weak and desperate. Which is how a government feels when it is about to fall.

8 Days is an eternity. THis could cool down, or heat up, or backfire worse on the CPC or backfire worse on the LPC/NDP and BQ.

The only thing is, the LPC/NDP and BQ have nothing, absolutely NOTHING to lose by attempting to go for it.

There will only be one political loser = Harper and one real loser = the public from this brinksmanship.

This is whole thread and "discussion" is a hurricane in a teaspoon.

Harper is not going to lose a confidence vote so the GG will not ask anyone to form a coalition government. In two weeks, no one will talk about this.

At most, the Liberals will look more craven and they'll also look to be a little too close to the NDP. (Since Ignatieff will likely be the next Liberal leader, a Leftist tinge may not be a bad thing.) Harper has also set the stage for a slight tilt to the right.

How do I know all this? Because I know that Stephen Harper can count to 154 and he knows how to pick up the phone and talk to Gilles Duceppe.

[Smallc]

How do I know all this? Because I know that Stephen Harper can count to 154 and he knows how to pick up the phone and talk to Gilles Duceppe.

After all his talk about the opposition being in bed with the separatists, I'm not sure he has that option.

[charter.rights]

This is whole thread and "discussion" is a hurricane in a teaspoon.

Harper is not going to lose a confidence vote so the GG will not ask anyone to form a coalition government. In two weeks, no one will talk about this.

At most, the Liberals will look more craven and they'll also look to be a little too close to the NDP. (Since Ignatieff will likely be the next Liberal leader, a Leftist tinge may not be a bad thing.) Harper has also set the stage for a slight tilt to the right.

How do I know all this? Because I know that Stephen Harper can count to 154 and he knows how to pick up the phone and talk to Gilles Duceppe.

You must be in the camp that supports Harper when he said: "We are not in a financial crisis in Canada." "We will not go into deficit." Funny how a week changes everything.

If Harper tries to form a coalition with the Bloc then the Liberals and the NDP have their wish. The point to be made is that Harper can no longer be trusted to operate as a bully and in a vaccum. Even if the Bloc joins himj, he still has to pay homage to their wishes.

[madmax]

This is whole thread and "discussion" is a hurricane in a teaspoon.

That truly sums it up. I love the wording.

How do I know all this? Because I know that Stephen Harper can count to 154 and he knows how to pick up the phone and talk to Gilles Duceppe.

Not normally a fan of Scott Ried, but the analysys is pretty good, coming from Mr. Beer and Popcorn.

Don't back down

on DION

The other elephant in the room is leadership. Stephane Dion has bargained his way to the drive wheel of the new government. Good for him, but only if it suits the greater good. If Mr. Dion can make his case, then great. If he can't, move to an alternative - and do it fast.

Battle Cry

First things first: take him out.

After all, Stephen Harper is the most dangerous animal lurking in the jungles of Parliament. He is a threat to the future viability of the Liberals. A blood simple opponent of the NDP and the only serious contemporary challenge to the Bloc Quebecois. Without him, his party is an unlikely combination of Reform Party leftovers, Harris refugees and Red Tory desperates. They don't matter or even exist without Mr. Harper. So before you think a moment longer, opposition leaders, think on that.

the CPC

Mr. Harper will spend the next week marketing the evils of the coalition. And he'll do it like his life depends upon it - because politically, it does. The coalition can't show weakness or indecision. It must be clear in its determination to finish off Mr. Harper, to market its own virtues and to offer a leadership that Canadians find acceptable. It has to prove its legitimacy.

[August1991]

After all his talk about the opposition being in bed with the separatists, I'm not sure he has that option.

Harper doesn't have to get into bed with Duceppe, he just needs to know that the Bloc will vote against any confidence motion. I'd say that Harper probably already has that assurance now. I suspect that securing BQ support is what motivated Baird's statement to rescind the decision to cancel the $1.95 subsidy.

Welcome to the wonderful world of politics. By the time the next federal election rolls around, this little episode will all be forgotten.

I must say though that I have been monumentally unimpressed with the depth of Canada's chattering classes.

----

As to the suggestion that Harper is out of touch or a bully, anybody who thinks that either doesn't understand politics or has no memory. Trudeau and Chretien were far worse bullies. King was a sneaky bastard.

Harper is a choirboy in comparison.

[madmax]

Harper doesn't have to get into bed with Duceppe, he just needs to know that the Bloc will vote against any confidence motion. I'd say that Harper probably already has that assurance now. I suspect that securing BQ support is what motivated Baird's statement to rescind the decision to cancel the $1.95 subsidy.

He needs the separtists to prop him up and he is going to give them money to do it.

I can't see the difference, can you see the difference, is there a difference?

[Smallc]

Harper doesn't have to get into bed with Duceppe, he just needs to know that the Bloc will vote against any confidence motion.

Ummmm, there is also the vote on the statement.