American Facism Continues.

[Oleg Bach]

yeah, like Plutonium, I suppose.

I doubt you got this from your union notes though.

While it is refreshingly honest, I am afraid that it may be a little too bold for your PC worshipping leaders.

Keep it up my little SD - you are making Himmler proud.

Odd how we have Himmlers in existance today - like Carl Himmler - George Himmler - Hillary Himmler and lets not forget Dick "the shotgun" Cheney Himmler.

[WIP]

Wait... I thought fascism already came to America? Wasn't Bush merely a Hitler clone? Wasn't that the popular thinking among the left only 2 years ago?

Maybe, if you're talking about conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones! My problem with the way the conservative movement in the Republican Party has developed is that they are advocating American supremacy, claiming divine guidance, and dividing the country between "REAL" Americans and assorted unpatriotic Americans who are standing in the way of America's true greatness.

I used to read Worldnetdaily every day, and now I would say that Joseph (don't call me Joe) Farah would qualify as one of the culprits who has cooked up a toxic stew of Christian neofascism, and he has his own Mein Kampf plan for "Taking America Back," -- although even he is sane enough to stop short of calling for the outright extermination of homosexuals, abortion providers, non-Christians, and everyone who opposes his vision of theocratic government who is otherwise known as "liberals."

That's because even Joe Farah realizes that conditions aren't right for the kind of takeover he is advocating (although he does claim Christian states should try to secede from the union); but what happens if we are faced with 1930's style hardship and an Obama Administration or any other future government is as ineffective as the Weimar Republic in dealing with the situation? I would argue that the Christian Right has already sown the seeds for a real fascist movement in America, and it will resemble the one the Sinclair Lewis feared over 75 years ago.

[moderateamericain]

Don't worry, I water my own garden and eat from it. I agree with you full in what you have just stated - but - and I will always stick my butt in the face of the proud. There are persons who are responsible for the very first trade deals and those delegates that were originally sent to Japan and China were deployed by those that knew they would prosper with through cheap labour and on a deal that said - "We will open up our domestic markets to you and you will have full authority on our turf to profit" - That's what irks me - It does not matter if a Ford is not as good as a Toyota - It was good enough! Deals were made that in time incrimentally destroyed our industry - all so a few men that were corporate traitors to their own tribe - to the nation that granted them wealth...where was the familiar loyalty?

By definition a free market is one that has the ability to trade to whomever offers the best value at the least price. Now I understand we are not entirely a free market economy and are more along the lines of a mixed. But the Japanese have brought a fair amount of work that you do not hear about. Yeah the US auto companies are probably going to crash. But do you think the demand for cars is going to stop? Nope. Someone else will come along to replace it. Much like when ATT was the only form of long distance communication. Now everyone has a cell phone and ATT is delved into other things. Trust the markets to find away. As long as there are people to buy things there will be demand. Michigan just needs some strong leadership to step in say. "The days of Unions and Auto plants is over" Its time for Michigan to re-invent itself. And eventually thats just what will happen, the demand will be there.

[bush_cheney2004]

....That's because even Joe Farah realizes that conditions aren't right for the kind of takeover he is advocating (although he does claim Christian states should try to secede from the union); but what happens if we are faced with 1930's style hardship and an Obama Administration or any other future government is as ineffective as the Weimar Republic in dealing with the situation? I would argue that the Christian Right has already sown the seeds for a real fascist movement in America, and it will resemble the one the Sinclair Lewis feared over 75 years ago.

You have made no such argument...at least not very well. The so called "Christian Right" is not a monolithic movement, and would never coalesce as you or Farah describe. Using such loose criteria, FDR's tenure would also be considered "fascist".

[WIP]

You have made no such argument...at least not very well. The so called "Christian Right" is not a monolithic movement, and would never coalesce as you or Farah describe.

It is monolithic enough to fight for removing barriers to church/state separation, fight abortion rights, fight gay rights, and of course, take over the Republican Party -- just because they represent rival sects that often claim that other churches are not on the road to salvation, that doesn't mean the Catholics, Evangelicals and Baptists who want religion in charge, are unable to collaborate on their shared goals!

You don't have a crystal ball anymore than anyone else here does, so any talk about how the future will play out remains speculation! My point is that the Religious Right leaders who have been lusting for political power and prestige for the last 30 years, have been brewing a mix of chest-thumping nationalism, Christian supremacy and a doctrine of patriotism that equates with blind obedience to authority, and in a severe recession that might combine with a perceived loss of the nation's international prestige, these are the elements that a charismatic leader could easily draw upon to create a fascist movement! Whether such a movement forms a government is another matter to speculate about.

Using such loose criteria, FDR's tenure would also be considered "fascist".

You can say that because you don't understand the meaning of the term "fascist." Fascism means more than government you disagree with!

[bush_cheney2004]

It is monolithic enough to fight for removing barriers to church/state separation, fight abortion rights, fight gay rights, and of course, take over the Republican Party -- just because they represent rival sects that often claim that other churches are not on the road to salvation, that doesn't mean the Catholics, Evangelicals and Baptists who want religion in charge, are unable to collaborate on their shared goals!

Yet they have not done so to date, and in fact failed to even support the likes of Governor Huckabee in overwelming numbers. Even the high profile darlings that you are aware of through American media have been marginalized again and again. One of the shared "goals" includes the "Green Movement", a very mainstream idea at present.

You don't have a crystal ball anymore than anyone else here does, so any talk about how the future will play out remains speculation!

I made no such predictions...just challenged your lack of any meaningful substance to support what is obviously a personal bias.

My point is that the Religious Right leaders who have been lusting for political power and prestige for the last 30 years, have been brewing a mix of chest-thumping nationalism, Christian supremacy and a doctrine of patriotism that equates with blind obedience to authority, and in a severe recession that might combine with a perceived loss of the nation's international prestige, these are the elements that a charismatic leader could easily draw upon to create a fascist movement! Whether such a movement forms a government is another matter to speculate about.

And they have failed at every turn. The American body politic remains as diverse as ever.

You can say that because you don't understand the meaning of the term "fascist." Fascism means more than government you disagree with!

It's really not fair for me to beat you up with the facts of FDR's presidency, New Deal court challenges, even internments of American citizens and resident aliens. After all....I actually live in America.

[Oleg Bach]

After two hundred years of human moral developement - suddenly under your last administration torture suddenly was legitimized - Torture is the seeking of total dominance over humanity - I would say that is rather Facistic. You can act as the offical apppologist for those that are badly behaved south of the 49th...and you can take the position that a morally neutral for profit elite is just dandy...still my friend - Your nation has regressed and I just hope that someone will take a moral and ethical stand even if it damages them financially - but that will not happen - America loves it's money more than it's people..that is a dilema.

[bush_cheney2004]

After two hundred years of human moral developement - suddenly under your last administration torture suddenly was legitimized - Torture is the seeking of total dominance over humanity - I would say that is rather Facistic.

And I would say that your optics are short and very narrow. Only a fool would pretend that such things were only recently "legitimized". That's really my only beef with such myopic whining....America is the same at it ever was. Your "moral development" timeline has also "legitmized" the vacuum aspiration of perfectly good fetuses.

You can act as the offical apppologist for those that are badly behaved south of the 49th...and you can take the position that a morally neutral for profit elite is just dandy...still my friend - Your nation has regressed and I just hope that someone will take a moral and ethical stand even if it damages them financially - but that will not happen - America loves it's money more than it's people..that is a dilema.

Yet it is you who watch the circus with such great angst and trepidation. To twist Sir William's notion a bit, 'tis better to have been a superpower and regressed, than never to have been one at all. Your morality is fleeting at best, and but a thin veneer for what you actually do, compared to what you say....as a person...or a nation struggling with your own demons.

Maybe your "god" will save you in the end...and all those who need saving.

[Oleg Bach]

And I would say that your optics are short and very narrow. Only a fool would pretend that such things were only recently "legitimized". That's really my only beef with such myopic whining....America is the same at it ever was. Your "moral development" timeline has also "legitmized" the vacuum aspiration of perfectly good fetuses.

Yet it is you who watch the circus with such great angst and trepidation. To twist Sir William's notion a bit, 'tis better to have been a superpower and regressed, than never to have been one at all. Your morality is fleeting at best, and but a thin veneer for what you actually do, compared to what you say....as a person...or a nation struggling with your own demons.

Maybe your "god" will save you in the end...and all those who need saving.

Bit of a prick today are we not? Do you know what it was like when I attempted to stop the legitized vaccume aspiration of a perfectly good offspring...I threatened to sue the doctor..what did I get - within one hour I had a couple of huge detectives holding me in a chair in my own house brow beating me into a conversion to pro-choice... so don't clam me in with abortionist....It was funny at the end of my no-touch torture...I had them both weeping and admitting that they regreted being so liberal to the point of being childless - and the bigger cop lunged forward and screamed "I am adopted, do you have a problem with that?" - they left after my conversion then I had to watch the abortionist deliver my next child with the same hand that crushed the prior one - he did not know I was the same guy that threatened his wallet.

So much for my story - it's true ----------------My friend you still have not figured out that I like watching you dance - You are the only interesting character here. And don't pick on "god" - which at least deserves a capital G not a capital punishment.. You are a realist - now that you have shown me that you respect life in all it's forms - I respect you - lets leave it at that.....and no more overly smart retorts - You are becoming predictable - and that's boring...

[bush_cheney2004]

Bit of a prick today are we not?

I am a prick every day....beware of anyone who wants to kiss your ass.

Do you know what it was like when .....

No, but you are repeating yourself. I am a prick with a good memory.

So much for my story - it's true ----------------My friend you still have not figured out that I like watching you dance - You are the only interesting character here. And don't pick on "god" - which at least deserves a capital G not a capital punishment.. You are a realist - now that you have shown me that you respect life in all it's forms - I respect you - lets leave it at that.....and no more overly smart retorts - You are becoming predictable - and that's boring...

I'm sure your story is true....but there are millions of others as well. Welcome to the pile of sand.

[Oleg Bach]

Now that you have arrived I have had my doze of America I can close up shop for today. Great to see you in good spirits. There is hope ----- and as you said - think of the billions that came before you - who are now in that pile of sand - you can crawl around in the sand if you wish - I will warm my feet in it and walk upright on that sand while I am resisting your call to insinificance - YOU are important as a million...Now I will pull out the only useful bit of scripture that I know...."I have not come to save the whole flock - but the one sheep that has fallen into the pit" - Thanks for the hand up - ...it is the individual that is paramount - don't be so hard on yourself - You are a king...and kings are not sand. They are a diamond as bright as the sun (son)....go brave and stop crying.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... They are a diamond as bright as the sun (son)....go brave and stop crying.

But it is not me who is whining.....for I am a giant grain of sand. Good day.

[M.Dancer]

I think someone doubled Oleg's daily dose...

[WIP]

Yet they have not done so to date, and in fact failed to even support the likes of Governor Huckabee in overwelming numbers. Even the high profile darlings that you are aware of through American media have been marginalized again and again.

We've been over this a few times already, but the fact is fascist movements depend on widespread dissatisfaction to actually have an impact on society. Right now, scaremongering and attempts to blame the victim by cretins such as Newt Gingrich, are not enough to launch a theocratic fascist movement.........but who knows what will happen next year, or the year after!

It's really not fair for me to beat you up with the facts of FDR's presidency, New Deal court challenges, even internments of American citizens and resident aliens. After all....I actually live in America.

And, I've lived in the U.S. and have American relatives, so you can't pass off an assinine comment that FDR was a fascist...especially when you're the one demanding exceptional levels of evidence against your favourite fascists!

The New Deal may have represented a radical shift in the role of government, but it was popularly supported because people (including economists) were desperate to find something to end the malaise of the Depression....hardly qualifies as fascism, although the fascist charge itself likely came from former president Herbert Hoover, who was only concerned about rehabilitating his image after his failed presidency, and publicly declared during the Depression that the NRA program was the first step towards instituting a fascist system like Hitler and Mussolini had created.

And the Japanese Internment Camps...........give me a break! Tell me what people or groups were speaking out against internment after Pearl Harbour? It was a policy that had wide popular support from a populace that saw Japanese Americans (even citizens) as secretive, unassimilated foreigners that could be still loyal to and spying on behalf of the Japanese government.

If there are more Islamic terrorist attacks in America, don't be shocked if your Republican heroes lead the charge to suppress or ban the Muslim religion and intern Muslims living in America.

[bush_cheney2004]

We've been over this a few times already, but the fact is fascist movements depend on widespread dissatisfaction to actually have an impact on society. Right now, scaremongering and attempts to blame the victim by cretins such as Newt Gingrich, are not enough to launch a theocratic fascist movement.........but who knows what will happen next year, or the year after!

And if pigs had wings they could fly. There is no credible fascist "movement" other than that which exists in your imagination.

And, I've lived in the U.S. and have American relatives, so you can't pass off an assinine comment that FDR was a fascist...especially when you're the one demanding exceptional levels of evidence against your favourite fascists!

Again, you have morphed my original assertion for your own American poser purposes. I can build a far stronger case for a real "fascist" FDR if that be the game you wish to play. Screaming future "fascism" from the Canadian wilderness still sounds the same even if your Uncle Remus lives in Biloxi, Mississippi.

The New Deal may have represented a radical shift in the role of government, but it was popularly supported because people (including economists) were desperate to find something to end the malaise of the Depression....hardly qualifies as fascism,

Then clearly you do not understand the scope and breadth of New Deal legislation, works projects, militarization, land use, civil unrest, labor relations, etc. That it was "popularly supported" does great harm to your understanding of what constitutes fascism. It is no coincidence that the 22nd Amendment to the US Constitution came in the wake of FDR's unprecedented terms.

although the fascist charge itself likely came from former president Herbert Hoover, who was only concerned about rehabilitating his image after his failed presidency, and publicly declared during the Depression that the NRA program was the first step towards instituting a fascist system like Hitler and Mussolini had created.

See above.

And the Japanese Internment Camps...........give me a break! Tell me what people or groups were speaking out against internment after Pearl Harbour? It was a policy that had wide popular support from a populace that saw Japanese Americans (even citizens) as secretive, unassimilated foreigners that could be still loyal to and spying on behalf of the Japanese government.

Yet the US Supreme Court still adjudicated the constitutionality of military zones and internments. Again, your premise of "popularity" speaks volumes about your understanding of "fascism". Germans and Italians were not so interned.

If there are more Islamic terrorist attacks in America, don't be shocked if your Republican heroes lead the charge to suppress or ban the Muslim religion and intern Muslims living in America.

FDR was a Democrat. Try again.

[WIP]

FDR was a Democrat. Try again.

That would be rather pointless, since you keep shifting your claims with each argument!

[bush_cheney2004]

That would be rather pointless, since you keep shifting your claims with each argument!

Thank you....as you have whiffed on the past, present, and future of fascism. Maybe someday America will live up to your expectations along these lines, but for now, it's still free entertainment. We don't even charge you for Google.

[WIP]

Thank you....as you have whiffed on the past, present, and future of fascism. Maybe someday America will live up to your expectations along these lines, but for now, it's still free entertainment. We don't even charge you for Google.

To be charitable, maybe this is all going over your head, since your laser-like focus on tactics makes you continually miss the whole point that some policies that you consider repressive government actions do not equal fascism!

Back to FDR, he did not create an authoritarian ideology with a historical narrative and moral positions that were declared to be perfect and beyond criticism such as Hitler and Mussolini did. The Communists created an authoritarian system by declaring that Karl Marx created the perfect materialistic philosophy to lead the human race to a "workers' paradise." The Fascists mixed a blend of religion and nationalism to create their authoritarian system........just like many religious right leaders and spokesmen are trying to stir up now.

[bush_cheney2004]

To be charitable, maybe this is all going over your head, since your laser-like focus on tactics makes you continually miss the whole point that some policies that you consider repressive government actions do not equal fascism!

No, like others on this forum, we can easily spot that which is intellectually lazy and assaulted with facts.

[

Back to FDR, he did not create an authoritarian ideology with a historical narrative and moral positions that were declared to be perfect and beyond criticism such as Hitler and Mussolini did. The Communists created an authoritarian system by declaring that Karl Marx created the perfect materialistic philosophy to lead the human race to a "workers' paradise." The Fascists mixed a blend of religion and nationalism to create their authoritarian system........just like many religious right leaders and spokesmen are trying to stir up now.

As is their right to do.....so who is the fascist? Still, your simple minded associations and limited dimension do not prove fascism, or even the potential for fascism. For reasons that only you understand, religion and nationalism are sure to gel someday....somewhere. This even as you proudly defend your credibility as at least the relative of an American....how ironic.

When presented with the reality of FDR's New Deal, TVA, militarism, internments, etc...the practical impact of any "ism"...your response is one of acceptance because of "popular support".

Amazing.

Edited November 28, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Oleg Bach]

Makes me wonder why I even started this topic? One thing that it has revealed is a type of smug Canadian hate for our American partners. How shallow it is to believe that Canadian liberalism is not Facistic...I have seen them operate in a crazed collective. Some one once said to me. "I have been all around the world and have seen all the isms....and it's not a pretty picture. Maybe what this thread has inadvertantly revealed is the growing mindless Facism that is CANADIAN in flavour?

[Pliny]

Fascism and Communism are extreme totalitarian forms of socialism. Socialism was popular in the twenties and thirties. The debacle that was the economic crash of 1929 was the result of government monetary policy and Hoover attempted to use every economic tool available to him in order to correct what was, so say some economists, caused by intervention. His sole accomplishment was that in every previous depression wages fell along with prices, but during most of his Presidency wages remained high. They did start to falter in the last six months of his administration.

The idea of keeping wages high was so that people would be able to afford to buy things and that would boost the economy. It did create an unemployment rate of somewhere around 30% though. Businesses couldn't afford to pay the high wages so couldn't hire anyone.

I haven't seen the US government do much different than what Hoover did in 1929. Bernanke wishing to bail everything out is the only difference. Capitalism without risk, what a concept!

Although socialism creeps upon all democracies, due to the fact they tend to evolve into a government catering to special interests, and shades of fascism or communism can be seen in socialism, does not mean that the American people would tolerate a fascist state. Some are willing to adopt more and more socialism though. Let's not call them fascist now, lest they not recognize it if it rears it's head. We can warn of socialism's creep and it's eventual totalitarian end but it is still far from fascist. Canada is much closer to totalitarianism and Europe even closer.

[WIP]

Fascism and Communism are extreme totalitarian forms of socialism. Socialism was popular in the twenties and thirties.

And that's why fascists co-opted socialism in the 1930's. Mussolini called his economic strategy the "Third Way" -- something in between communism and capitalism. If socialism wasn't popular, he would have embraced free market economics as the national economic principles.

Fascists have to act like populists at some level to have a large, dedicated movement of supporters -- so they will use whatever economic, nationalist, racist, or religious virtues that the mob considers important, so that they support the fascist party's higher goals of concentrating power around a despotic leader and the people who run his government.

[Pliny]

And that's why fascists co-opted socialism in the 1930's. Mussolini called his economic strategy the "Third Way" -- something in between communism and capitalism. If socialism wasn't popular, he would have embraced free market economics as the national economic principles.

Fascists have to act like populists at some level to have a large, dedicated movement of supporters -- so they will use whatever economic, nationalist, racist, or religious virtues that the mob considers important, so that they support the fascist party's higher goals of concentrating power around a despotic leader and the people who run his government.

What do you mean Fascism co-opted socialism? Fascism is socialism at it's end - the totalitarian State. He would not have embraced free market economics, he was a socialist and socialism in it's extreme is about the State's domination over the economy. Evolutionary or creeping socialism is marked by the growing centralization of power and it's ever-increasing economic domination.

You, being left leaning in your politics, seem to have no compunctions over the concentration of the power of the State. Why would you not support someone with that same goal of concentrating power? Whether you do or you don't support someone with that same proclivity you, by promoting the concentration of power, create the opportunity for seizing that power.

[WIP]

What do you mean Fascism co-opted socialism? Fascism is socialism at it's end - the totalitarian State.

Since Mussolini coined the term fascism, and in his efforts to recreate the Roman Empire, the word comes from the "fasces" -- the Roman symbol of a magistrate's authority and power (a tied bundle of rods with a protruding ax), so the characteristics that are used to define fascism use all of the tactics and strategies that Mussolini used to concentrate power under his rule.

And that is the key factor of fascism -- it's about creating a totalitarian state, not designing economic theories. Mussolini was a man of his times, and he was planning his route to power at a time when recession and huge gaps in wealth had made capitalism a dirty word as much as communism -- and maybe even more so, since the Catholic Church cut a deal with the Fascists because they feared a communist takeover that would end their power and confiscate Church property as happened with the Russian Orthodox Church after the Bolshevik Revolution. So Mussolini's third way between capitalism and communism owed more to populist demagoguery than concern about economics. It was just another issue to coopt, like appeals to nationalism, patriotism, racism etc. are used for populist appeal.

He would not have embraced free market economics, he was a socialist and socialism in it's extreme is about the State's domination over the economy. Evolutionary or creeping socialism is marked by the growing centralization of power and it's ever-increasing economic domination.

If conditions on the ground were different, different rhetoric would be used for the same ultimate goal. Incidentally, I don't see a whole lot of "free" in a free enterprize system that allows concentration of power among an oligopoly of corporations working together, and working with the government to provide services payed for out of tax dollars. What do all of the defense contractors and private profiteers such as Haliburton and Blackwater Security have to do with free enterprize anyway? Economic reality is not always the same thing as economic theory!