Lest We Forget

[Mortui]

So if I drove down to Ottawa and walked into a Variety Store and asked the owner how his day was going, if he'd hear of any criminal activity in the neighbourhood, this would give me expert knowledge about about backroom dealing by politicians, businesspeople, and diplomats. Geez, I think I'll give Mike Duffy a call and tell him he's wasting his time with his extensive web of contacts in government--what he really should be doing is chatting up any old person he happens to run into at the local Tim Hortons...

How would interacting with the individuals of a society everyday for years not give you a better outlook on how they feel than talking to 3 of their leaders?

Honestly, you're the last person who should be giving anyone history lessons. I've asked you to name one British soldier who died in Afghanistan fighting to preserve a British Empire that no longer really exists, which was founded on a social, racial, and ideological outlook that I'm sure you don't care the least about. Well, you have yet to do so. And one things for sure, were you to die before your tour ends, in 100 years time you'll no doubt be long forgotten as well. Chances are is that Canada will probably be an (or a series of) Islamic republic(s) by then anyway, and so not only would you be forgotten but the the whole nature of Canada's mission in Afghanistan subject to islamic revisionism, just like Canada's Anglo-Saxon past is subject to postcolonialist revisionism. But I guess for someone like you, these broader concerns don't mean anything, do they? Suit yourself.

Sir Louis Cavangnari. Lord Elphinstone. Brigadier Shelton. Brigadier Anquetil. Lieut..

Hardyman 5th L.C. http://chimera.roma1.infn.it/ANDREA/brydon.txt Happy?

Okay, you just completely contradicted yourself here. First you call me lazy for having the conviction to not do certain things, then you state that one does not have to do certain things to have the "same objective".

Have the conviction to stop eating your foot.

For all you know I could be in Afghanistan right now. Look at the closest person to you--that could be me!!!

Hehe, you can be funny!

I stated several well known examples, so why are you asking me for "proof"????

List them again for me please. I must have missed them.

Coming from someone who knows jack all what he's talking about...

He does know what he's talking about, thank you.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Mortui

[Army Guy]

If you guys are finding that Rue speaks on your behalf I sincerely have to say I have no respect for you. You people obviously don't know the implications of siding with someone like him. And yet here you people think that you're all great Canadian patriots...

I think that is part of the problem skippy, you don't have respect for anything, your a bitter old man that is in search of some attention, unhappy because while you've been sitting in your house alone, the world has passed you by, so longing for yesteryear is all you have left....

You've yet answered any of the questions i've asked you....What type of experiance do you bring to the table, Have you been to Afganistan ?, you've talked to the locals here ? you've read the intel that the locals have given us ? you have a back ground or some sort of expertize in military affairs or intel ? or is all this just an uninformed uneducated guess on your part ....

Okay, you just completely contradicted yourself here. First you call me lazy for having the conviction to not do certain things, then you state that one does not have to do certain things to have the "same objective".

I din't contradict myself, spewing things out your ass is not doing something about your conviction, so what is it that you are doing....

For all you know I could be in Afghanistan right now. Look at the closest person to you--that could be me!!!

Good one....a person with your convictions does not enter a war zone, no sir, a person of your convictions does not have the balls to risk everything while carring out thier convictions....you are rather the type that sits at home, alone in the dark wishing, hoping that someone else does it for them.... your a complainer, a whinner, afraid of change, unwilling to except change....No when i look at the people surrounding me, i see people of action, people that have left the comforts of home to serve our country in a war zone....notjust the soldiers, diplomats, but those civilians working along side of us, be cutting hair, working at timmies....all share the same beliefs, and they don't come close to yours....

I stated several well known examples, so why are you asking me for "proof"????

you gave some generic examples .....pretty easy to do, are we to take your word on it....Show us in print ,something that backs your augument up....according to you it should be easy.....I know the art of debate is foreign to you, but just give it a try....i mean you have already said i know jack shit, should be very easy to disprove anything i say....can't be all that hard, i'll i do is pull a few triggers right....

[Rue]

If you guys are finding that Rue speaks on your behalf I sincerely have to say I have no respect for you. You people obviously don't know the implications of siding with someone like him. And yet here you people think that you're all great Canadian patriots...

You again do not get it. I never claimed to speak on behalf of anyone or think for anyone.

If it had not been me someone else would have said it and Bambino filled in the gap and responded to the other point you made that I did not because quite frankly I got so angry I lost focus.

You insulted my father. You insulted my Uncles. You insulted my friend that died. You insulted people like Army or others who I do not presume to speak for but sure as hell will not forget. You insult the vets at Sonnybrook Hospita and who I will die seeing in my mind from the Queen Mary Hospital in Montreal which now no longer exists. You insult people in wheel-chairs and with painful lung ailments and illnesses you have no clue about.

You insult people who live the remainder of their lives always feeling inside them pain and remorse.

You can not see or imagine any feeling other then your own and all you now see is a popularity contest.

Its not about being popular Keng-its about respecting people who sacrificed their lives precisely because they want us to be civil to one another and follow laws so we do not end up destroying each other.

You are dead wrong Keng and its not about you and you really do need now to walk away.

I mean it Keng go to Sonnybrook hospital and talk with a Vet. Until you do. Until you make an effort to see the flesh and blood you ridicule and stereotype, you will continue to be the poorer for it.

[BC_chick]

I don't think kengs is implying that we don't appreciate the sacrifice of our soldiers in the present day - he has clearly indicated that he's talking about future generations.

Instead of everyone making this personal.... be honest, when was the last time you mourned the sacrifices of those who gave their lives in wars prior to modernity.... vs. Remembrance Day, D-Day and all the other relatively more recent wars where we honour our vets?

We are still psychologically close to those wars because we've grown up hearing the stories from family and friends. Yet when all else turns to dust and there are no more stories, history does forget the sacrifices of our soldiers.

Kengs is pretty crass (I'm being kind kengs, you can stir the pot pretty well), but the essence of what he's saying is... true. Unfortunately.

Edited November 19, 2008 by BC_chick

[charter.rights]

I don't think kengs is implying that we don't appreciate the sacrifice of our soldiers in the present day - he has clearly indicated that he's talking about future generations.

Instead of everyone making this personal.... be honest, when was the last time you mourned the sacrifices of those who gave their lives in wars prior to modernity.... vs. Remembrance Day, D-Day and all the other relatively more recent wars where we honour our vets?

We are still psychologically close to those wars because we've grown up hearing the stories from family and friends. Yet when all else turns to dust and there are no more stories, history does forget the sacrifices of our soldiers.

Kengs is pretty crass (I'm being kind kengs, you can stir the pot pretty well), but the essence of what he's saying is... true. Unfortunately.

Being crass and fatuous is Kengs333's full time occupation.

[kengs333]

Kengs is pretty crass (I'm being kind kengs, you can stir the pot pretty well), but the essence of what he's saying is... true. Unfortunately.

Awww... you went and added the "unfortunately" did you? Don't want to be seen as being too symapthic with me? That's okay...

[BC_chick]

Awww... you went and added the "unfortunately" did you? Don't want to be seen as being too symapthic with me? That's okay...

No, it's 'unfortunately' true that history forgets the sacrifices of soldiers. As in:

Kengs is pretty crass (I'm being kind kengs, you can stir the pot pretty well), but the essence of what he's saying [about history's forgotten heroes] is... true. Unfortunately.

Edited November 19, 2008 by BC_chick

[Army Guy]

BC Chick:

I don't think kengs is implying that we don't appreciate the sacrifice of our soldiers in the present day - he has clearly indicated that he's talking about future generations.

I find it very difficult to come to the same conclusion with his comments he has already made....

Militarism isn't necessarily a bad thing, though; the problem is that our current military is populated largely by people of questionable moral and intellectual character. The type of militarism that our society needs ended in 1914 due to flawed political leadership that misused the military for petty reasons. A militarism that instills in men of a givien society positive characterists--honesty, integrity, devotion to duty, discipline, morality, etc.--is a good thing. It would create a society where crime and vice would decline sharply, and such a society benefits all who live in it.

Here he clearly explains that the current military is populated with people of questionable moral and intellectual character, dating back to 1914, that covers alot of ground, and alot of our nations history....including both world wars, Korea, and current operations....

Boy, you just don't get it, do you? You people in the military really love to thank yourselves on behald of all Canadians--especially those who don't agree with you--in order to validate yourselves, don't you?

Another general comment of the military in general...

History shows that the military is more prone to inhibit rather than protect people's rights. We can only be thankful that the Canadian military is as small as it is--and underfunded. Even with its small size it has enough of an influence on politics...

Not a comment made when you support or respect the sacrafices made by our nations soldiers...

Why don't you get a job where you can do something positive for this world without having the capacity to kill? Work for an NGO in a warzone--but that takes balls, I guess...

And this comment rather say's it all, i feel the love, i feel the respect, and if it was angled at just myself i could live with that, But i've seen far to many good men and women die for thier current beliefs, to be smear by anyone....

And if i misread or misunderstood his comments in any way then i'm sorry, but i think his intent is pretty clear, what do you think.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Army Guy

[Oleg Bach]

To interject - Recently I spoke to a very tall black man that had just returned from a tour of Afhanistan - He looked as if he was a decendant of a Zulu warrior - I asked him if we have any buisness over there - He stated - that it was not our buisness - and also - he was disrespected in part because he was black and a soldier - The poor guy was homeless and un-employed - Is this the fate of our vetrans? Or is it the fate of only black soldiers returning?

[kengs333]

Here he clearly explains that the current military is populated with people of questionable moral and intellectual character, dating back to 1914, that covers alot of ground, and alot of our nations history....including both world wars, Korea, and current operations....

The nature of the beneficial sort of militarism that I agree with ended with the war, which started in 1914; that doesn't mean that I've suddenly lost respect for the men who were brought up in that system, because they were victims of political circumstances beyond their control. Anyone with even the vaguest sense of what WWI was all about knows that these men were misused for a useless, trivial cause. It may come as a shock to you, but many men who served in the Canadian Army during WWI became ardent pacificists, and I think it really disparaged their legacy that we have not learned from their suffering. This is something that is completely lost to you, I think; seem seem quite content with wrapping yourself up in the usual mindless patriotic bunk and deluding yourself that because you simply don a uniform you actually have any real connection to those men--real men who served two, three, or four years in the trenches enduring unspeakable conditions. You guys only go over for a few months at a time, spend much of your time in a protected compound eating hamburgers and slurping Tim Hortons coffee; and yet half come back with some sort of stress disorder. Who was that guy who claimed that he had PTSD because he couldn't go out on patrol with his buddies, so he comes back and beats the tar out of his three young kids? Or why is it that every time there is a ramp ceremony, everybody is balling their eyes out? That's weak.

[Oleg Bach]

The emotional ramp ceremony is stupid - forgive me for this observation and statement - BUT - IF our soldiers were actaully protecting us and our freedom then I would weep also at the death of even one - BUT the reality is the jerks in Afghanistan don't even know where Canada is and don't give a damn - so where is the danger...and where is the noblity in the death of a Canadian soldier? This weeping it unabashed maniputlation of Canadian emotion - and it is a game that makes us soft westerners feel important and useful - this is an illusion - Afghanistan and Iraq are a total waste of money and life...IF an enemy is attacking you destroy them - This Bushite mentality that "we must fight them there and if not we will be fighting them on our soil" - we would be best to operate domestically and weed out any immigrant that harbours hate for us - but we do not - because we are fools.

[g_bambino]

The nature of the beneficial sort of militarism that I agree with ended with the war, which started in 1914; that doesn't mean that I've suddenly lost respect for the men who were brought up in that system, because they were victims of political circumstances beyond their control. Anyone with even the vaguest sense of what WWI was all about knows that these men were misused for a useless, trivial cause. It may come as a shock to you, but many men who served in the Canadian Army during WWI became ardent pacificists, and I think it really disparaged their legacy that we have not learned from their suffering. This is something that is completely lost to you, I think; seem seem quite content with wrapping yourself up in the usual mindless patriotic bunk and deluding yourself that because you simply don a uniform you actually have any real connection to those men--real men who served two, three, or four years in the trenches enduring unspeakable conditions. You guys only go over for a few months at a time, spend much of your time in a protected compound eating hamburgers and slurping Tim Hortons coffee; and yet half come back with some sort of stress disorder. Who was that guy who claimed that he had PTSD because he couldn't go out on patrol with his buddies, so he comes back and beats the tar out of his three young kids? Or why is it that every time there is a ramp ceremony, everybody is balling their eyes out? That's weak.

I fail to understand what point it is you're trying to get at. Are you maligning the military because it hasn't been ordered to engage in a good enough conflict for you?

[Oleg Bach]

I fail to understand what point it is you're trying to get at. Are you maligning the military because it hasn't been ordered to engage in a good enough conflict for you?

WHAT - so a little girl can go to school is not a good enough reason? So to make sure that Taliban woman can get a nice little stippers outfit and cheat on their husbands is not a good enough reason What the hell kind of lefty are you? We need a strong military so we can remove Sharia law all over the world and install our finacial and social raping family law system....our lawyers are starving over her we need a miltary so they can go international and be rich...don't you get it - our law is the best..

[Army Guy]

The nature of the beneficial sort of militarism that I agree with ended with the war, which started in 1914; that doesn't mean that I've suddenly lost respect for the men who were brought up in that system, because they were victims of political circumstances beyond their control.

Perhaps i'm a little slow, but how in the blue blazing hell, have you shown any respect for anyone with the comments you've made....I listed a few show me which ones actually prove what you just said....I don't blame the soldiers , but the politictions of the time....shit i can't even see the words politics of the time mentioned in any of them.....

Anyone with even the vaguest sense of what WWI was all about knows that these men were misused for a useless, trivial cause.

I'm sure that is not how they felt at the time, i'm sure thats not why so many signed up, keeping in mind it was mostly a volunteer force....how do make someone volunteer anyway....

It may come as a shock to you, but many men who served in the Canadian Army during WWI became ardent pacificists

No it would not, but you have not served in WWI, or for that fact in any war, so you sir have no right to judge those that have....you may dislike war, your free to stand up and yell until your blue in the face about war, but you do not have a right to judge me or others that have or are serving thier nation.....

and I think it really disparaged their legacy that we have not learned from their suffering. This is something that is completely lost to you,

We have learned form thier suffering, but until man decides to put his energy into something else other than killing things someone has to stand on the line....ready to serve our nation, be it in defense or carrying out our foreign policy...

, I think; seem seem quite content with wrapping yourself up in the usual mindless patriotic bunk and deluding yourself that because you simply don a uniform you actually have any real connection to those men--real men who served two, three, or four years in the trenches enduring unspeakable conditions.

Now they are real men, i thought you ref to them as men with questionable morals and intellectual character, i guess we are making progress and while i will not compare those conditions of WWI to those in Afgan. i will how ever say i have more in common with them than you, sitting at home behind your computer....

You guys only go over for a few months at a time, spend much of your time in a protected compound eating hamburgers and slurping Tim Hortons coffee; and yet half come back with some sort of stress disorder.

Nice try, been in theater here for a while, my laptop has been back to camp more times than i have....out of the 190 days i spend here 90% of that will be spent outside the wire....living out of the back of a lav while on the move , or in the endless POO dirt, that is as fine as baby powder....

and while i regular dream of a nice juicy burger, eating one now would mean spending days shitting in a bag....i will admit to drinking the occasional cold timmies.....other than that you have no idea of what a Canadian soldier goes through, lives through....nor do you actually give a shit....as for PTSD you should goggle it learn alittle about it before once again pulling things out your ass....

Or why is it that every time there is a ramp ceremony, everybody is balling their eyes out? That's weak.

Here is a guy who is afraid to come out of his basement, and he is calling me weak....i guess your made of rock never cried or showed emotion during a funeral....it's not hard to see you have not been in combat, you have not had an experience that bonds you closer to others...of course not ...any ways the relationship between soldiers is one that is as strong as that of brothers, sisters...so yes thier is going to be tears, dating back well past WWI sorry to say, we are all weak....

It's not really soldiers that you dislike, you mentioned it a while back, it's todays soldiers, it's todays Canadians because they don't share the same morals and values as you do....the country is not heading in your direction....in fact it's not even on the same tracks....and your pissed....i happened to be the target....

This country will continue to change, it is a process that has been going on since time began, there is nothing you or anyone can do about it...except perhaps build a time traveling machine....maybe thats why you got that tinfoil hat on....