Federal Liberal Party Civil War!

betsy · October 21, 2008

I must say that Mike Duffy Live has a lot of scoops lately about the beleaguered Liberal Party.

Yesterday, Ray Heard, former director of communications for John Turner said some tough words during an interview with MDuffy. MDuffy himself was visibly taken aback about the viciousness of Mr Heard's comments regarding Dion. You have to see this video.

John Turner’s former director of communications on Dion’s resignation.

Ray Heard says Stephane Dion whined his way through his resignation speech today and is wrong to hold on to the Liberal Party leadership until the party convention.

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/mike-duffy-live/m...-20/#clip104456

It also came to light that there is bickering about who was going to be the interim leader. Goodale and McCallum were said to be contenders, however both cannot be seen as neutral (which is one of the rules to being an interim leader), since they supported Ignatieff and Rae.

It was speculated that that is one of the reasons why Dion opted to stay on as the interim leader.

Today, on Mike Duffy (again), his guests were three Liberals: Stephen Ledrew, David Orchard and John McCallum.

Holy smoke! Talk about laundering your linen in public. Ledrew and Orchard were heatedly arguing about Dion (Orchard is a supporter of Stephane). The argument got so heated that Orchard removed his ear piece and kept on talking, Ledrew couldn't butt in. McCallum tried to get both sides to cool down. But it's out in the open now. If that party was divided then, boy....it's an all out civil war now!

The video for this segment isn't up yet....maybe tomorrow.

Mr.Canada · October 21, 2008

I'm just sitting back and watching the show...lol.

It is going to be years before that party gets it together. They are going to lose even more votes next election. It's going to be glorious.

jdobbin · October 21, 2008

I'm just sitting back and watching the show...lol.
It is going to be years before that party gets it together. They are going to lose even more votes next election. It's going to be glorious.

It is why I keep saying that if Harper isn't planning an election in the next six months, he would be out of his mind.

Mr.Canada · October 21, 2008

It is why I keep saying that if Harper isn't planning an election in the next six months, he would be out of his mind.

I'm sure he is but he cannot call it himself, he has to blame it on someone else.

I agree with you though. You've made a believer out of me.

Not yet though. He should wait for the full implosion of that party. It's going to exciting very soon I'm sure.

He still cannot call it himself he needs to pin it in on the Liberals somehow.

Maybe make a throne speech that they don't like. Get them to vote against it.

Our PM has to keep up the attack ads on the Liberal party.

betsy · October 21, 2008

Mind you, who knows what Dion is up to.

Do you think it is possible that as interim leader, he brings down the government on the first budget? He is the leader to run again in that election....so he'll get his second run.

jdobbin · October 21, 2008

I'm sure he is but he cannot call it himself, he has to blame it on someone else.
I agree with you though. You've made a believer out of me.

Not yet though. He should wait for the full implosion of that party. It's going to exciting very soon I'm sure.

He still cannot call it himself he needs to pin it in on the Liberals somehow.

Maybe make a throne speech that they don't like. Get them to vote against it.

Our PM has to keep up the attack ads on the Liberal party.

Blaming the Liberals will be the easy part. Controlling outside influences on the election will not be as easy. The Liberals will be at their weakest ever in the next six months but Harper has to make sure that he attacks the NDP and Bloc from the get go too. He didn't do that prior to the last election. He treated Duceppe with kid gloves and he ignored Layton.

jdobbin · October 21, 2008

Mind you, who knows what Dion is up to.
Do you think it is possible that as interim leader, he brings down the government on the first budget? He is the leader to run again in that election....so he'll get his second run.

He can remain as leader as part of the party rules but he can't make them vote the way he might want to.

If Harper does play the brinkmanship role and make every vote a confidence, he can test whether the party will abstain. There is a danger though that the Opposition will pick an issue that doesn't play well for the Tories. Harper will have to be careful which vote brings down the government or alternatively, if he calls the election himself, he will have to make sure that he can blame the Liberals so that it is convincing. I think it will be easy.

wulf42 · October 21, 2008

Excellent.......the Liberals will will finish themselves off faster than expected.........lol.....poor bastards they just can't recover from the dark years .....oh well C'est la vie!

drewski · October 21, 2008

don't know if supporters will listen, or either candidate will keep to it, but Rae and Ignatieff agreed to keep it "civil" this time

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/521406

capricorn · October 22, 2008

Do you think it is possible that as interim leader, he brings down the government on the first budget? He is the leader to run again in that election....so he'll get his second run.

This has got to be every Liberal's nightmare, Dion as leader in a second election. The electorate blaming the Liberals for another election so close to the other and no money to run a campaign against the Conservatives who are flush with cash. Forget about renting that clunker from Air Inuit. Next time around, Dion will be joining Liz May on Via Rail. :lol:

jdobbin · October 22, 2008

This has got to be every Liberal's nightmare, Dion as leader in a second election. The electorate blaming the Liberals for another election so close to the other and no money to run a campaign against the Conservatives who are flush with cash. Forget about renting that clunker from Air Inuit. Next time around, Dion will be joining Liz May on Via Rail.

I don't know that Dion would have the support to bring down the government but at the same time if Harper decides to play hardball and push a bill that doesn't have a lot of support, he does take a risk that the Opposition will take him up on it. If it is that unpopular, it could defeat his government.

My opinion is that Harper will try to find a reason to call the election himself. He wants to see the end of the Liberal party as party. He wants every remnant of it gone. The time is now and he can feel it. Wait six months and it might be a threat to him again.

madmax · October 22, 2008

He treated Duceppe with kid gloves and he ignored Layton.

It depends upon what you are attacking. Harper blew Quebec, and fumbled the ball, allowing Duceppe to get a touch down.

Harper may have ignored Layton, he attacked the strength of the Party in BC and edged Jack Laytons NDP come EDAY. They picked up early, the NDP momentum and wasted no time, ignoring the Liberals. It all depends on where you live who gets attention where.

Harper trains guns on NDP in B.C.
Grit support collapsing in province, with some polls putting them in 4th

Andrew Mayeda, Canwest News Service

Published: Wednesday, September 24, 2008

VANCOUVER - In a prelude to what could become a more national strategy, Stephen Harper's Conservatives are now looking beyond the Liberals in British Columbia to slow the advance of the NDP

The other problem with attack Jack Layton is that you can only go after perceived weaknesses. Jack was on attack on Harpers Strength, which was Leadership. A battle of Leadership only highlighted Jack over Dion whenever Harper attacked, thus strengthening the NDP when the CPC no longer could afford the NDP to threaten their goal for Majority.

In the end, Harper probably got the most help from the Liberal Premier, who choose to attack Layton on Softwood Lumber deal. Thus Layton and the NDP practically swept the Rural Northern Ontario Forestry sectors, while losing some ground to the CPC in BC.

Softwood lumber ref.

On September 12, 2006, Canadian International Trade Minister David Emerson along with U.S counterpart Susan Schwab officially signed the deal in Ottawa. Despite being described by supporters of the deal as the best deal possible, Elliott Feldman an international and economic law specialist from the firm Baker & Hostetler in Washington, D.C. and a former director of the Canadian–American Business Council criticized the deal as "one-sided" and a "bad deal for Canada".

capricorn · October 22, 2008

My opinion is that Harper will try to find a reason to call the election himself.

Harper is aware of the discontent surrounding his decision to call an election with the backdrop of the fixed election law. IMO it would be a mistake for him to taunt voters with an early election call. Best to let the opposition do his bidding.

He wants to see the end of the Liberal party as party. He wants every remnant of it gone. The time is now and he can feel it.

No doubt his long term goal is to see the demise of the Liberal Party. Whether he feels an imminent opportunity, a rash decision on his part at this time may not have the desired effect and could backfire.

Wait six months and it might be a threat to him again.

The only correction the Liberals will bring within that time frame is a new leader and in my view that's too long. Do you think they can resolve financial and policy problems in the meantime? I don't. Getting the Liberal machine marching in the same direction will be a monumental feat no matter the leader. Not to mention the exhaustive revamping fundraising at the grassroots level. Lots on the plate.

jdobbin · October 22, 2008

It depends upon what you are attacking. Harper blew Quebec, and fumbled the ball, allowing Duceppe to get a touch down.

By going after Harper I mean going after him the same way they did with Dion. They certainly had the budget to frame people's perceptions long before the election. It is up to the Tories to say what those weaknesses are.

I think the Tories have to show Duceppe doesn't do a good job of looking after Quebec's interests.

Harper may have ignored Layton, he attacked the strength of the Party in BC and edged Jack Laytons NDP come EDAY. They picked up early, the NDP momentum and wasted no time, ignoring the Liberals. It all depends on where you live who gets attention where.

For Layton, I think the Tories should show that he is hostile to business and will hurt people's economic outlook.

The other problem with attack Jack Layton is that you can only go after perceived weaknesses. Jack was on attack on Harpers Strength, which was Leadership. A battle of Leadership only highlighted Jack over Dion whenever Harper attacked, thus strengthening the NDP when the CPC no longer could afford the NDP to threaten their goal for Majority.

That's why you go after the NDP on the economy.

In the end, Harper probably got the most help from the Liberal Premier, who choose to attack Layton on Softwood Lumber deal. Thus Layton and the NDP practically swept the Rural Northern Ontario Forestry sectors, while losing some ground to the CPC in BC.
Softwood lumber ref.

The collapse of the Liberal vote helped a lot of parties. It just didn't finish them off and the vote was dispersed widely. The Tories know that some of the gains will now have to come at the expense of other Opposition parties, especially the Bloc but also NDP.

William Ashley · October 22, 2008

I'm just sitting back and watching the show...lol.
It is going to be years before that party gets it together. They are going to lose even more votes next election. It's going to be glorious.

The only way they'd loose votes is for Harper to continue putting people to sleep and turning them against wasting their time recognizing canada and voting.

William Ashley · October 22, 2008

Excellent.......the Liberals will will finish themselves off faster than expected.........lol.....poor bastards they just can't recover from the dark years .....oh well C'est la vie!

If you didn't realize the conservative vote fell too dorphus.

There really isn't that much change in voting numbers, the vote fell, which augments the precentages. The election was not run well, and current electoral law doesn't provide for democracy.. the system is horrid, and obviously the appeal just isn't there. People could care less because they don't respect them, they are the enemy. Either that or jehova's witnesses.

government doesn't work for them, so they arn't going to work for it.

Turkey. It was all about turkey, not the party.

Turkey makes people lethargic, how many glutonous liberals do you think showed up for the vote.. I bet alot didn't feel like walking or dealing with their gas from bad eating practice of gorging themselves over the thanksgiving holiday - it explains it right there, ask mr martin if he got out and voted? He isn't really all that big, but he seems like the type to like his plate... you know the type that gets 5$ of tha 500$ plate where as the others only $4. I bet a lot of liberals are really fat too, but the farmers that vote tory in the west need to fit in their tractors.. the liberals often just need to fit on a seat with no fear of falling 10 feet off.. no fear for the liberal to gorge themselves and be too tired to get out and vote due to the heroine like drugs within the dead corpose of the avian grounded creature.

There are two types of liberals, eaters and healty people.

The same is true for the conservatives but everyone knows the conservatives don't get their name from no where. I bet if we polled to see who ate the most on thanksgiving liberal supporters might, although with a close tie with the NDP.... I'm not sayin gthere arn't conservatives to eat a lot but I bet most are just husky.. or use to it.. liberals most likely are more effected by the gorging of thanksgiving.. I bet except for all the red during christmas and people cutting down trees the liberals would probablybe hit bad on a jan1st vote or a december 26th vote.

Votes the day after a holiday should be illegal.

there were so many factors at play making this the dumbest election day ever for the people

day after a holiday

too close to the start of the school year

during a parliamentary corruption scandal

during an election fraud inquiery

etc...

Edited October 22, 2008 by William Ashley

capricorn · October 22, 2008

Turkey. It was all about turkey, not the party.
Turkey makes people lethargic, how many glutonous liberals do you think showed up for the vote.. I bet alot didn't feel like walking or dealing with their gas from bad eating practice of gorging themselves over the thanksgiving holiday - it explains it right there, ask mr martin if he got out and voted? He isn't really all that big, but he seems like the type to like his plate... you know the type that gets 5$ of tha 500$ plate where as the others only $4. I bet a lot of liberals are really fat too, but the farmers that vote tory in the west need to fit in their tractors.. the liberals often just need to fit on a seat with no fear of falling 10 feet off.. no fear for the liberal to gorge themselves and be too tired to get out and vote due to the heroine like drugs within the dead corpose of the avian grounded bird.

Why didn't Dion think to include this in his list of excuses of why he lost the election? It is so much clearer to me now.

jdobbin · October 22, 2008

Harper is aware of the discontent surrounding his decision to call an election with the backdrop of the fixed election law. IMO it would be a mistake for him to taunt voters with an early election call. Best to let the opposition do his bidding.

It might be a mistake to wait longer. He'll have to balance the damage done with the gains made. Do you think he could make gains at the Liberals expense if we went in the next six months?

No doubt his long term goal is to see the demise of the Liberal Party. Whether he feels an imminent opportunity, a rash decision on his part at this time may not have the desired effect and could backfire.

Don't think I said he would act rashly. This would be a cold calculated decision to kill the Liberals once and for all.

The only correction the Liberals will bring within that time frame is a new leader and in my view that's too long. Do you think they can resolve financial and policy problems in the meantime? I don't.

I think the fastest way is to move all functions the Liberals do inhouse to a stand alone charitable foundation. For lack of a better word let's call it the Liberal Institute. It would have all the polling, all the organizers and receive all the corporate financing they can't receive now as a party organization. It would the brain trust and operate separately but closely with the party.

It would be legal in the same way that C.D Howe, Frontier Policy, Fraser and others are all legal. In the case of the Liberal Institute, it would be the outsource research arm for Liberals across Canada.

This wouldn't address the problem of election financing but it would help on running a streamlined office to reduce yearly operating expenses.

Getting the Liberal machine marching in the same direction will be a monumental feat no matter the leader. Not to mention the exhaustive revamping fundraising at the grassroots level. Lots on the plate.

I think they should go after the corporate money for the "Institute". It is there that work could be done to figure out how to get a grass roots program working successfully.

William Ashley · October 22, 2008

Why didn't Dion think to include this in his list of excuses of why he lost the election? It is so much clearer to me now.

He is thin. But a smart man. Sadly it is all the view you see things from.

I was a fat kid growing up, I understand these things.

Edited October 22, 2008 by William Ashley

capricorn · October 22, 2008

It might be a mistake to wait longer. He'll have to balance the damage done with the gains made. Do you think he could make gains at the Liberals expense if we went in the next six months?

Not if he calls the election himself.

Don't think I said he would act rashly. This would be a cold calculated decision to kill the Liberals once and for all.

I think he's content with steadily chipping away at the foundations of the Liberal Party bringing it to a tilt until it collapses.

I think the fastest way is to move all functions the Liberals do inhouse to a stand alone charitable foundation. For lack of a better word let's call it the Liberal Institute. It would have all the polling, all the organizers and receive all the corporate financing they can't receive now as a party organization. It would the brain trust and operate separately but closely with the party.
It would be legal in the same way that C.D Howe, Frontier Policy, Fraser and others are all legal. In the case of the Liberal Institute, it would be the outsource research arm for Liberals across Canada.

Sounds good on paper. I don't know the intricacies of those organizations to comment.

It is there that work could be done to figure out how to get a grass roots program working successfully.

By the time they figure it out, there may not be enough Liberal supporters left to raise funds of any significance.

jdobbin · October 22, 2008

Not if he calls the election himself.

If he can find a way to blame the Opposition, I don't see a downside. It will about perception, right? The endorsements from the media are already there.

I think he's content with steadily chipping away at the foundations of the Liberal Party bringing it to a tilt until it collapses.

In six months, a new leader will be in place. It would be a major feat to have a leader as weak as Dion.

Sounds good on paper. I don't know the intricacies of those organizations to comment.

Innovative thinking will be needed to jumpstart the finances. In some cases the money was being sat on while Dion was in power.

By the time they figure it out, there may not be enough Liberal supporters left to raise funds of any significance.

Harper might not want to find that out in six months.

wulf42 · October 22, 2008

If you didn't realize the conservative vote fell too dorphus.
There really isn't that much change in voting numbers, the vote fell, which augments the precentages. The election was not run well, and current electoral law doesn't provide for democracy.. the system is horrid, and obviously the appeal just isn't there. People could care less because they don't respect them, they are the enemy. Either that or jehova's witnesses.

government doesn't work for them, so they arn't going to work for it.

Turkey. It was all about turkey, not the party.

Turkey makes people lethargic, how many glutonous liberals do you think showed up for the vote.. I bet alot didn't feel like walking or dealing with their gas from bad eating practice of gorging themselves over the thanksgiving holiday - it explains it right there, ask mr martin if he got out and voted? He isn't really all that big, but he seems like the type to like his plate... you know the type that gets 5$ of tha 500$ plate where as the others only $4. I bet a lot of liberals are really fat too, but the farmers that vote tory in the west need to fit in their tractors.. the liberals often just need to fit on a seat with no fear of falling 10 feet off.. no fear for the liberal to gorge themselves and be too tired to get out and vote due to the heroine like drugs within the dead corpose of the avian grounded creature.

There are two types of liberals, eaters and healty people.

The same is true for the conservatives but everyone knows the conservatives don't get their name from no where. I bet if we polled to see who ate the most on thanksgiving liberal supporters might, although with a close tie with the NDP.... I'm not sayin gthere arn't conservatives to eat a lot but I bet most are just husky.. or use to it.. liberals most likely are more effected by the gorging of thanksgiving.. I bet except for all the red during christmas and people cutting down trees the liberals would probablybe hit bad on a jan1st vote or a december 26th vote.

Votes the day after a holiday should be illegal.

there were so many factors at play making this the dumbest election day ever for the people

day after a holiday

too close to the start of the school year

during a parliamentary corruption scandal

during an election fraud inquiery

etc...

blah..blah..blah................the Liberals lost and will never be anything but a side show in the future................get over it!

Liberal party= Kaput!

drewski · October 22, 2008

blah..blah..blah................the Liberals lost and will never be anything but a side show in the future................get over it!
Liberal party= Kaput!

The concept of the Liberal's being dead forever is merely a pipe dream. Back in the 90's people were said the right wing was dead because they were split.

Politcis is like a pendulum. In the 80's it swung the Tories way, the 90's it went to the Liberals, now its swinging back to the Cons and in a few years, it will swing back to the Libs

Argus · October 22, 2008

By going after Harper I mean going after him the same way they did with Dion. They certainly had the budget to frame people's perceptions long before the election. It is up to the Tories to say what those weaknesses are.

The Tories will NOT go after Layton. There's nothing to be gained for them in that. They'll attack the NDP locally, in BC, for example, but will generally ignore them in the rest of the country. There's nothing to be gained there. NDP votes would not go to the Tories anyway, they'd go to the Liberals.

Mr.Canada · October 22, 2008

The Tories will NOT go after Layton. There's nothing to be gained for them in that. They'll attack the NDP locally, in BC, for example, but will generally ignore them in the rest of the country. There's nothing to be gained there. NDP votes would not go to the Tories anyway, they'd go to the Liberals.

Very true. If anything the Tories want more people to vote for the NDP to further dilute the Liberals.