Dems Are To Blame For Financial Crisis

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes indeed.

Good...glad someone is paying attention.

Are you PolyNewbie incarnate?? Then how does a bank create money? Remember, money used to be backed by gold, which is no longer the case. Fiat currency, fractional reserve banking, ect ect .. cyclic. Money is debt.

The US abandoned the gold standard in 1971. Plenty of debt and economic chaos before that.

Because you cannot do that for yourself. Pretty sad.

Why would I want to when opportunities abound during a "crisis".

[WIP]

If the Republicans are able to get away with blaming the financial crisis on the Democrats, there is no hope! It would be proof that the dumbing down process has reached the point of no return!

The simple fact that Republicans voted for and re-elected an imbecile who was totally dependent on the bad advice of his advisers should be enough to disqualify the next Republican, who is not much smarter, if at all, than Dubya! Limbaugh fans are trying desperately to spin this as bad advice from the Democrats I suppose, and ignore the fact that Bush ruled with a Republican majority in Congress for most of his term in office, and had the power to make whatever changes to FannieMae and FreddieMac that the Repubs are trying to blame on the other guy.

When you create a disaster of this scale, you should automatically forfeit the game! If Americans fail to kick every Republican to the curb within foot-range, the downward spiral will make them the next failed empire in future history books.

[Shady]

Who is Keaton? Perhaps you mean "Keating"?

Maybe he meant Alex P. Keaton?

This is what happens when someone attempts to discuss issues they have no real knowledge about. He probably read it off of Daily Kos, and is trying to regurgitate it here. Without much success.

[bush_cheney2004]

...When you create a disaster of this scale, you should automatically forfeit the game! If Americans fail to kick every Republican to the curb within foot-range, the downward spiral will make them the next failed empire in future history books.

You should know.....living in the last failed empire (current history books), eh?

[peter_puck]

In other words, you can't exclude this as a factor.

No, but I think it ranks closer to prosperity theology than bank deregulation. If you want to go back to the 70's to explain the cause, you have to explain why nothing happened until Bush came to office

Yes there were...see Savings and Loan Crisis.

From what I remember that was not a housing bubble like what we have to day. It was an economic downturn with badly run financial firms.

Why would the president stop a housing bubble?

To avoid the mess we are currently in.

This doesn't make any sense.....Bush didn't start the wave of deregulation.

Again, I don't fault Bush for creating the mess. I fault him for not responding when things started to go off the rails. Nobody could have predicted the interaction between banking laws and macro economic conditions 30 years down the line. Everybody knew there was a housing bubble. The government should have known that banks were finding ways around regulations and should have plugged the holes. Bush could have shown some guts, fixed the mess and took a recession (and maybe lost a reelection bid). History would have been kinder to him.

[bush_cheney2004]

No, but I think it ranks closer to prosperity theology than bank deregulation. If you want to go back to the 70's to explain the cause, you have to explain why nothing happened until Bush came to office

Lots of things happened before Bush "came to office"....starting with the 1970's. I suppose that was Bush's fault too?

From what I remember that was not a housing bubble like what we have to day. It was an economic downturn with badly run financial firms.

False....the 1980's also saw a housing bubble in the US and Japan, on top of commercial properties going bust...and banks. It not a new phenom.....

To avoid the mess we are currently in.

"We"?????

Again, I don't fault Bush for creating the mess. I fault him for not responding when things started to go off the rails. Nobody could have predicted the interaction between banking laws and macro economic conditions 30 years down the line. Everybody knew there was a housing bubble. The government should have known that banks were finding ways around regulations and should have plugged the holes. Bush could have shown some guts, fixed the mess and took a recession (and maybe lost a reelection bid). History would have been kinder to him.

US Presidents have no control over "housing bubbles"...real or imagined. The important lesson from the past two weeks is just how powerless government is when markets and valuations go south.

Edited October 8, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[peter_puck]

Lots of things happened before Bush "came to office"....starting with the 1970's. I suppose that was Bush's fault too?

Again, I am not saying he wrote every law that was responsible, I said he should have responded when the problem occured.

"We"?????

Go read the papers, this mess is now spreading all over the world.

US Presidents have no control over "housing bubbles"...real or imagined.

First of all, this one was not imagined. Second of all, the government has all the control in the world. The housing bubble was supply and demand. Much of the demand was supplied by people who should not have been buying in the first place.

Some tools ?

Restrictions on creative (dumbass) financing (Ninja, 50 year amortization, interest only)

Real penalites for all the fraud that went along with this. From lying on an application to lying to an applicant to lying to a pension fund.

Plugging loopholes that allowed bankers to hide the risk in the investments.

Minimum down payments

The tax cuts with borowed money certainly didn't help.

[bush_cheney2004]

Again, I am not saying he wrote every law that was responsible, I said he should have responded when the problem occured.

Bush didn't write any laws, and he sure as hell wasn't going to shut down the credit markets during a recovery from 2001's recession.

Go read the papers, this mess is now spreading all over the world.

So what? Americans are now kissin' cousins because Canadian bacon is in the fire? That's quite a promotion from gun totin', Jeebus lovin', warmonger dog crap.

First of all, this one was not imagined. Second of all, the government has all the control in the world. The housing bubble was supply and demand. Much of the demand was supplied by people who should not have been buying in the first place.

Gross simplification....housing bubble occurred at all levels of economic strata. How bout those 1980's...not so great after all....huh? That's the problem with old farts like me....I lived the history others only read about with Google.

Some tools ?

Restrictions on creative (dumbass) financing (Ninja, 50 year amortization, interest only)

Real penalites for all the fraud that went along with this. From lying on an application to lying to an applicant to lying to a pension fund.

Plugging loopholes that allowed bankers to hide the risk in the investments.

Minimum down payments

Barn > Horse

The tax cuts with borowed money certainly didn't help.

Didn't help who...we?

[GostHacked]

So what? Americans are now kissin' cousins because Canadian bacon is in the fire? That's quite a promotion from gun totin', Jeebus lovin', warmonger dog crap.

You are a fool if you are not aware of how the current economic crisis in the US is affecting world markets. World markets are down an average of 8 to 10%. The UK and Germany have a couple banks that are in trouble because of the crisis (central banks are all tied into each other and lend to banks in the respected country). Parts of Asia stopped stock trading altogether to prevent a further downturn.

Overall from what I can see, most markets that are traded worldwide are down on the whole has an average of about 8%. That is in one week, and now most markets are at their worst ever.

Not so much kissing is involved here.

Gross simplification....housing bubble occurred at all levels of economic strata. How bout those 1980's...not so great after all....huh? That's the problem with old farts like me....I lived the history others only read about with Google.

But did you learn from your history? That might be another problem with old farts like you. But, you will tell me I am wrong... I hope.

[bush_cheney2004]

You are a fool if you are not aware of how the current economic crisis in the US is affecting world markets. World markets are down an average of 8 to 10%. The UK and Germany have a couple banks that are in trouble because of the crisis (central banks are all tied into each other and lend to banks in the respected country). Parts of Asia stopped stock trading altogether to prevent a further downturn.

Clue for you....during the Asian financial crisis which also affected the "whole world", Americans were not kissing cousins either. Just mere weeks ago it was "Eff the USA".....my how their tune changes when asses are on fire.

Overall from what I can see, most markets that are traded worldwide are down on the whole has an average of about 8%. That is in one week, and now most markets are at their worst ever.

They were also up...way up... not long ago. It happens....

But did you learn from your history? That might be another problem with old farts like you. But, you will tell me I am wrong... I hope.

I won't waste time on you...since it appears you depend on my history, present, and future. What a pity.....

[peter_puck]

Barn > Horse

The horse was in the barn when Bush got elected.

Didn't help who...we?

Reduce the housing bubble. DOH!

Anyways, I guess I should not complain. To put this in a language you will understand, my faith in your president and his fiat economy caused me to most withdraw from the markets long before this debacle. I will be shortly buying stocks for a fraction of the cost Bush supporters paid for them. :-) (of course, I will be nowhere near as smug if my employer goes under )

[bush_cheney2004]

The horse was in the barn when Bush got elected.

Of course...that's why the recession started in March 2001...just weeks after inauguration!

Reduce the housing bubble. DOH!

Nope....not in the job description...and for good reason.

Anyways, I guess I should not complain. To put this in a language you will understand, my faith in your president and his fiat economy caused me to most withdraw from the markets long before this debacle. I will be shortly buying stocks for a fraction of the cost Bush supporters paid for them. :-) (of course, I will be nowhere near as smug if my employer goes under )

Whereas I can ignore your PM and fiat economy regardless of what happens.

[GostHacked]

Clue for you....during the Asian financial crisis which also affected the "whole world", Americans were not kissing cousins either. Just mere weeks ago it was "Eff the USA".....my how their tune changes when asses are on fire.

Nah, I still stay Eff The USA anyways. My tune has not changed. I will admit that banking and business practices worldwide are gonna get us into more trouble as time goes on and more economies and countries are conglomerated together under globalization backed by the IMF and World Monetary Fund.

Because of everything so connected now, (much because of computer technology making it easier for world markets to be connected) everything is so intertwined with each other, when one major economy is in trouble (like the US and like you mentioned Asia (Asia is a country? )and why were they in that mess to begin with?).

I won't waste time on you...since it appears you depend on my history, present, and future. What a pity.....

You already wasted much time on me, why stop now??

Now you are moving into a socialistic economy when Government buys up the bad debt of Freddie Mac, Fannie May, and possibly more. Capitolism is dying in the US when Government needs to take over major finnancial institutions. You will have government issued mortgages for those who can barley afford it. It could be a good thing, but for what I can tell, Americans really don't like socialism, because for the most part it is equated to communism.

If you want to compare Canada's socialistic health care system, to the soon to be socialistic housing mortgage market. Expect long delays, and your taxes to increase.

Don't forget the Federal Reserve is a private corporation. The Government does not own it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Nah, I still stay Eff The USA anyways. My tune has not changed. I will admit that banking and business practices worldwide are gonna get us into more trouble as time goes on and more economies and countries are conglomerated together under globalization backed by the IMF and World Monetary Fund.

Geat...someone to tell us the obvious.

Because of everything so connected now, (much because of computer technology making it easier for world markets to be connected) everything is so intertwined with each other, when one major economy is in trouble (like the US and like you mentioned Asia (Asia is a country? )and why were they in that mess to begin with?).

Yes..it was those damn compooters in 1929 too!

You already wasted much time on me, why stop now??

Was that you? I hardly noticed.

Now you are moving into a socialistic economy when Government buys up the bad debt of Freddie Mac, Fannie May, and possibly more. Capitolism is dying in the US when Government needs to take over major finnancial institutions. You will have government issued mortgages for those who can barley afford it. It could be a good thing, but for what I can tell, Americans really don't like socialism, because for the most part it is equated to communism.

My first mortgage (13% ) was government backed as well (VA/FHA)....over 30 years ago. Your peephole view in time and distance is....noted.

If you want to compare Canada's socialistic health care system, to the soon to be socialistic housing mortgage market. Expect long delays, and your taxes to increase.

No, I expect to profit and not wait at all. Cash is king, and I have plenty.

Don't forget the Federal Reserve is a private corporation. The Government does not own it.

Don't forget.... we already know this.

Edited October 9, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[GostHacked]

Geat...someone to tell us the obvious.

Yes..it was those damn compooters in 1929 too!

You could consider those adding machines early computers, however, with the technology now, problems will happen faster and cascade faster as well.

Was that you? I hardly noticed.

And yet you replied anyways ... good thing you are not wasting your time on me.

My first mortgage (13% ) was government backed as well (VA/FHA)....over 30 years ago. Your peephole view in time and distance is....noted.

Doing the best I can with every new bit I learn.

No, I expect to profit and not wait at all. Cash is king, and I have plenty.

Actually credit is king. A great deal of us use credit of debit cards now and barley see 'cash' anymore.

OHHH .. and another thing.... Canada.

[peter_puck]

Of course...that's why the recession started in March 2001...just weeks after inauguration!

Your right, as I have said many times, Bush faced a recession when he came to office. He faced the economic fallout of the dot-com bubble.

The horse we are talking about here is the housing bubble. He did not face that when he came to office, it was created during his term in office. The really lousy vintages of mortgages were from later in his time in office.

Random thought..what ever happened to Shumer being responsible by making crazy statements that maybe the banking system was not that sound ?

[bush_cheney2004]

The horse we are talking about here is the housing bubble. He did not face that when he came to office, it was created during his term in office. The really lousy vintages of mortgages were from later in his time in office.

The housing bubble peaked during Bush's term, but it had started before that. Accordingly, the over leveraged derivatives came to a head late in the game...until it was over. I think it is misleading to lament the loss of paper gains that never had a foundation in reality.

Random thought..what ever happened to Shumer being responsible by making crazy statements that maybe the banking system was not that sound ?

Senator Schumer is credited with single handedly assuring the failure of IndyMac, and has helped to precipitate a "quiet run" on the banks.

[peter_puck]

No, I expect to profit and not wait at all. Cash is king, and I have plenty.

In other words while Bush was saying the economy was great and you were defending his twisted economic world, you were hoarding cash instead of investing it in the market ?

Not exactly putting your money where your mouth is.

[bush_cheney2004]

In other words while Bush was saying the economy was great and you were defending his twisted economic world, you were hoarding cash instead of investing it in the market ?

Not exactly putting your money where your mouth is.

Only an idiot listens to any politician when it comes to investing. I am a contrarion, and have been handsomely rewarded.

The economy is great for those who know how to take advantage of the market.

[peter_puck]

The housing bubble peaked during Bush's term, but it had started before that. Accordingly, the over leveraged derivatives came to a head late in the game...until it was over. I think it is misleading to lament the loss of paper gains that never had a foundation in reality.

House prices rise and fall as part of normal economic activity. They may have been rising when Bush came to office. , but nobody was calling it a bubble. Go look at all the exploding ARMS and such. It was I think 2005 vintage ones that were the first to raise concern. The idea that a house is really a money tree did not bloom until well into his first term.

Senator Schumer is credited with single handedly assuring the failure of IndyMac, and has helped to precipitate a "quiet run" on the banks.

Look at all the banks that have failed (or merged prior to failing). You think IndyMac would have gotten through that ? Schumer just ratted out the whole Ponzi scheme. Which I guess makes him guilty in the eyes of its operators.

[bush_cheney2004]

House prices rise and fall as part of normal economic activity. They may have been rising when Bush came to office. , but nobody was calling it a bubble. Go look at all the exploding ARMS and such. It was I think 2005 vintage ones that were the first to raise concern. The idea that a house is really a money tree did not bloom until well into his first term.

No, this is false. Banks were marketing home equity loan products for tax advantages long before Bush's term. Certain US markets have had booming real estate valuations for many, many years.

Look at all the banks that have failed (or merged prior to failing). You think IndyMac would have gotten through that ? Schumer just ratted out the whole Ponzi scheme. Which I guess makes him guilty in the eyes of its operators.

I don't care either way, but the excepted wisdom is not to pour gasoline on the fire. Banks that would not otherwise fail can be pushed to insolvency by "quiet runs".