Listeria & Tainted Meat

[Pliny]

Why would someone steal $50? Sometimes people do it because they don't care about their reputation and they move on quickly as grifters. The incentive for these type of enterprises is that things can be set up as quickly as snake oil salesmen and disappear when people realize they've been taken.

For some large businesses, it is a numbers game. They care about their reputation and would rather pay out damages than order a recall which they believe is more damaging to them.

What you are talking about here is a failure of the justice system.

It takes a long time to build up a name and a reputation in order to service a demand for a product.

If someone doesn't care about their reputation then they are nobody at best and criminal at the least. They have no respect for themselves and there is no future in that so they will act the way you describe. Do you know lots of people like that?

It may be a numbers game for some large businesses but I will say that if that is the case then there is not enough competition in that field. If it is more affordable for a business to fail in it's public trust than correct it's errors there is something wrong. Often government regulation and licensing makes it difficult for competiton to thrive and it also makes it difficult for the consumer to judge for himself the quality of his goods and services because as long as their is a government license it must be good.

[Pliny]

The news is reporting that the Maple Leaf plant will be closed indefinitely. Probably until after election. I wonder if this company supports the Conservatives?

They are in Ontario chances are they support the Liberals. I don't know why that would be important though?

[jdobbin]

What you are talking about here is a failure of the justice system.

It takes a long time to build up a name and a reputation in order to service a demand for a product.

I am talking about fraud though. Some companies operate within the laws but do a numbers game to see whether something like a recall or paying settlement is better for them. Some companies just close and re-open under different names.

If someone doesn't care about their reputation then they are nobody at best and criminal at the least. They have no respect for themselves and there is no future in that so they will act the way you describe. Do you know lots of people like that?

They aren't criminals but they do operate for themselves.

As for knowing people like that, I have met a number of contractors who operate within the law but if they run into trouble, they can simply move on or they counter sue or place a lien on property so that it becomes a he said/she said contract dispute.

It may be a numbers game for some large businesses but I will say that if that is the case then there is not enough competition in that field. If it is more affordable for a business to fail in it's public trust than correct it's errors there is something wrong. Often government regulation and licensing makes it difficult for competiton to thrive and it also makes it difficult for the consumer to judge for himself the quality of his goods and services because as long as their is a government license it must be good.

I don't know if it is a question of competition. Do you think there is not enough competition in auto manufacturing?

[jdobbin]

An unscrupulous operator can make a few quick buckes, but then what? And would you buy meat from a short term operator? For how many years would this unscrupulous operator operate to gain your confidence? And then, for half a pound of sliced turkey, he rips you off and moves to the Cayman Islands with his kids? (Would he, ambitious, competitive, forfeit his kids chance in life in North America?)

I don't generally buy meat directly. A lot of meat is packaged under different names and supplied to different companies.

For something like listeria, it can be very difficult to track and that is why we depend on a Level 4 lab to detect it. That is a government operation generally. If someone dies a suspicious death, an autopsy is performed, a government job in general.

The next step is to track down where the infection came from, a government job in general done by health departments.

Prior to all that, they key to stopping infection is a job of prevention. I agree with you that it is generally a job for private enterprise and individuals. However, the standards and the oversight generally can't come from business itself because the incentives to act upon a problem can run into conflict with the numbers game.

Your main argument that business people act in the public good because it is good for business. That generally is true. But some just work the numbers.

[guyser]

I don't generally buy meat directly. A lot of meat is packaged under different names and supplied to different companies.

IIRC, all meat is stamped from the originating plant. The little circle on the package is the code for the plant. Then the plant knows pretty much all the meat came from X farmers.

It is, to the best of my knowledge all traceable.

[jdobbin]

IIRC, all meat is stamped from the originating plant. The little circle on the package is the code for the plant. Then the plant knows pretty much all the meat came from X farmers.

It is, to the best of my knowledge all traceable.

I never said it was untraceable. I was responding to the comment that companies protect their brand. That is true for the vast majority of the companies. However, many producers operate under different names while others reconstitute themselves if the run into problems.

For the consumer, the label doesn't have any meaning except when they are told that a recall in taking effect. We certainly don't know which plant the food comes from from reading the label.

Edited August 29, 2008 by jdobbin

[margrace]

So Mr. Harper is no more caring about people than Mr. Harris was when the inspection of water facilities was cut back and run by a private co.

Headlines in the Globe and Mail

Ottawa wanted US to ease meat inspections, Canadian Gov't strongly opposed toughter US rules to prevent listeria

It is on line and anyone can read it. Do they think we are all a lot of sheep to be led to the slaughter?

[guyser]

I never said it was untraceable. I was responding to the comment that companies protect their brand. That is true for the vast majority of the companies. However, many producers operate under different names while others reconstitute themselves if the run into problems.

And if the name changes the meat plant label does not. CP produces tons of brand names, all bearing the same label number.

So does Quality Meats.

For the consumer, the label doesn't have any meaning except when they are told that a recall in taking effect. We certainly don't know which plant the food comes from from reading the label.

True, but it does not mitigate the fact that people "could' , but I concur they likely would not do os.

[jdobbin]

And if the name changes the meat plant label does not. CP produces tons of brand names, all bearing the same label number.

So does Quality Meats.

But we don't always hears about the plant. We hear about the product name and the expiry date. The consumer can read the expiry date. It has meaning to consumers but the product ID label is generally for internal tracking and for government tracking. It has no meaning to the consumer unless we are told to check the lot numbers. Even then, we still don't know what plant is involved.

True, but it does not mitigate the fact that people "could' , but I concur they likely would not do os.

I don't even know if the system allows the consumer to track their own food as such.

In any event, if there is a problem, the consumer depend on *someone* to tell them if a product is tainted and how to identify it. Some people say that private industry has the incentive and expertise to do the job while the government does not. My argument is that we need an independent inspection process.

I don't know that a company can always do that job without conflict.

Edited August 29, 2008 by jdobbin

[GostHacked]

IIRC, all meat is stamped from the originating plant. The little circle on the package is the code for the plant. Then the plant knows pretty much all the meat came from X farmers.

It is, to the best of my knowledge all traceable.

It is in their best interest to ID everything so they can trace it. You always want to know where and what your inventory is.

[HisSelf]

A couple of interesting points I have gleaned from this story:

- The US refused to allow our deli meat products to be imported some years back because of inadequate Listeria testing

- the Canadian Food Inspection Agency issued a warning some time ago saying Canadian deli meat products should not be served to seniors and pregnant women, and that retirement homes never received this warning

- Maple Leaf Foods was following government testing protocols, which called for the re-swabbing of the line when listeria positive swabs were detected, but not for the testing of the product, whihc could be shipped if a second swab was negative (after significant sanitation)

My takeaway is that government protocols were weak, and my guess is that this was a result of heavy industry lobbying. Somebody tell me otherwise....

[guyser]

It is in their best interest to ID everything so they can trace it. You always want to know where and what your inventory is.

It is a Federal stamp. Not one by the maker/producer. The lot #'s etc are for the producer

[HisSelf]

It is a Federal stamp. Not one by the maker/producer. The lot #'s etc are for the producer

Exackly

[margrace]

A couple of interesting points I have gleaned from this story:

- The US refused to allow our deli meat products to be imported some years back because of inadequate Listeria testing

- the Canadian Food Inspection Agency issued a warning some time ago saying Canadian deli meat products should not be served to seniors and pregnant women, and that retirement homes never received this warning

- Maple Leaf Foods was following government testing protocols, which called for the re-swabbing of the line when listeria positive swabs were detected, but not for the testing of the product, whihc could be shipped if a second swab was negative (after significant sanitation)

My takeaway is that government protocols were weak, and my guess is that this was a result of heavy industry lobbying. Somebody tell me otherwise....

The other story is of Clement and the agricultural minister, is it Ritz, who fired Mr. Pomerlear for daring to object to the laying of of meat inspectors. Shades of Walkerton, Clement shoud know better, is that why he lit out for the American show.

[normanchateau]

The other story is of Clement and the agricultural minister, is it Ritz, who fired Mr. Pomerlear for daring to object to the laying of of meat inspectors. Shades of Walkerton, Clement shoud know better, is that why he lit out for the American show.

Meanwhile, Mr. Ritz is facing criticism from a former star Conservative candidate.

Allan Cutler, who was praised by Conservatives for blowing the whistle on the sponsorship scandal, says he is shocked and offended by the Harper government's decision to fire a CFIA biologist last month.

Mr. Cutler...received a hero's welcome when he joined the Tory ranks in November, 2005.

Mr. Cutler is criticizing Mr. Ritz for praising an employee who identified biologist Luc Pomerleau as the source of a politically embarrassing leak. Mr. Pomerleau sent his union a document outlining CFIA plans to transfer some meat-inspection duties to industry.

"We at Canadians for Accountability, a group founded to promote accountability and support whistleblowers, were shocked and offended. Many of us are whistleblowers ourselves," wrote Mr. Cutler.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...TOCK26/TPStory/

Apparently the flipflopping Harper has forgotten that he once promoted accountability and supported whistleblowers.

[Topaz]

Meanwhile, Mr. Ritz is facing criticism from a former star Conservative candidate.

Allan Cutler, who was praised by Conservatives for blowing the whistle on the sponsorship scandal, says he is shocked and offended by the Harper government's decision to fire a CFIA biologist last month.

Mr. Cutler...received a hero's welcome when he joined the Tory ranks in November, 2005.

Mr. Cutler is criticizing Mr. Ritz for praising an employee who identified biologist Luc Pomerleau as the source of a politically embarrassing leak. Mr. Pomerleau sent his union a document outlining CFIA plans to transfer some meat-inspection duties to industry.

"We at Canadians for Accountability, a group founded to promote accountability and support whistleblowers, were shocked and offended. Many of us are whistleblowers ourselves," wrote Mr. Cutler.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...TOCK26/TPStory/

Apparently the flipflopping Harper has forgotten that he once promoted accountability and supported whistleblowers.

The bottom line, is just like the Harris government, Harper's government decisions to save money can/will KILL Canadians

[blueblood]

Who says they can't be fired? If there is cause, anyone can be fired.

However, you see the risk of conflict of interest? I find it is the same way in regards to police investigating police.

There has to be some independence.

Yes there has to be independence, but those people have to be accountable in some way or another. To my understanding it is very very hard to can federal employees, it's also to my understanding that they have their lazy and incompetant fools as well. Why it's so hard to fire federal employees I don't know.

The federal employee can be just as unscrupulous and incompetant as the private industry policing itself.

[jdobbin]

Yes there has to be independence, but those people have to be accountable in some way or another. To my understanding it is very very hard to can federal employees, it's also to my understanding that they have their lazy and incompetant fools as well. Why it's so hard to fire federal employees I don't know.

The Tories fire them all the time. The problem is that it seems linked to whistleblowing on government deeds.

The federal employee can be just as unscrupulous and incompetant as the private industry policing itself.

This means better accountability is needed rather than giving holus bolus responsibility to the private sector as if that will solve the problem entirely.

[blueblood]

The Tories fire them all the time. The problem is that it seems linked to whistleblowing on government deeds.

This means better accountability is needed rather than giving holus bolus responsibility to the private sector as if that will solve the problem entirely.

I actually agree, it has to be both private/gov't thing in order to work. BOTH have to be accountable

[Pliny]

I am talking about fraud though. Some companies operate within the laws but do a numbers game to see whether something like a recall or paying settlement is better for them. Some companies just close and re-open under different names.

Yes and fraud is a concern of justice.

I don't know if it is a question of competition. Do you think there is not enough competition in auto manufacturing?

There was a lack of competition in auto manufacturing. There should still be more.

[Pliny]

The bottom line, is just like the Harris government, Harper's government decisions to save money can/will KILL Canadians

I wonder why I am even replying to this statement. You speak as if this is the first outbreak of deadly food born disease to ever have occurred. I remember at least a few under the Liberals must have been their decisions to skim some money.

[jdobbin]

Yes and fraud is a concern of justice.

Sorry, that should have read, it isn't always fraud but companies operating within the law but not with a lot of ethics.

There was a lack of competition in auto manufacturing. There should still be more.

It still can mean that some companies look at the numbers and pay out claims rather than deal with the problem. Automobiles companies are doing that less because of there is less of a stigma in a recall than in the past. People would rather have the sketchy door dealt with than with the consequences of it flying open. Today, a recall is appreciated because it feels like after service.

[normanchateau]

The bottom line, is just like the Harris government, Harper's government decisions to save money can/will KILL Canadians

Ironically, Harper's government is dramatically increasing their spending and has done so in 2006, 2007 and 2008.

Saving money does not appear to be high on their agenda. Their cuts tend to be symbolic rather than substantial. The increases are substantial. For example, last year's budget promised another four billion to Quebec in 2008 in transfer payments. The rest of Canada is paying dearly for Harper's futile attempt to move to second place in the polls in Quebec.

[Pliny]

Sorry, that should have read, it isn't always fraud but companies operating within the law but not with a lot of ethics.

The problem is still with justice then. Unethical behavior means that someone feels unjustly treated and the law fails in it's intent to the point of abusively providing protection for unethical behavior.

It still can mean that some companies look at the numbers and pay out claims rather than deal with the problem. Automobiles companies are doing that less because of there is less of a stigma in a recall than in the past. People would rather have the sketchy door dealt with than with the consequences of it flying open. Today, a recall is appreciated because it feels like after service.

Court decisions that give the impression the company has taken responsibility and paid out claims is not taking responsibility. It is paying to keep it's name and reputation intact. If the public saw no recourse to irresponsible behavior they would abandon the irresponsible company and it would be forced to either close it's doors or somehow restore it's name in their perception.

The quality of North American automobile manufacturers has not kept up to foreign manufacturers. The public is abandoning this irresponsible behavior in favour of it's competition.

I suppose time is a factor. People want justice now but justice is a process and is not immediate and justice has become somewhat unbalanced being more about the administration of punishment than justice.

[normanchateau]

The Tories fire them all the time. The problem is that it seems linked to whistleblowing on government deeds.

Except of course when Harper was in opposition. Then whistle blowing by a government employee was honourable and noble.