jdobbin Posted August 22, 2008 Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/22/pilot.watch.list/index.html Scherfen served in the U.S. military for 13 years, as an Army infantryman in the first Gulf War and then as a helicopter pilot in the National Guard. After receiving an honorable discharge, he was hired as a pilot by Colgan Air Inc., a regional airline operating in the Northeast and Texas.In April, Colgan informed Scherfen that he was on a government list and would be suspended from his job. He was told he faced termination on September 1 unless he was able to clear his name. A lot of people appear on these watchlists. We know already that some Republican and Democrat legislators including Ted Kennedy have similar names to people on the watchlist and this has caused problems for them. Other people don't know why exactly they are on the list. Moreover, no one is sure what the mechanism to to get off the list if nothing is found to be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted August 22, 2008 Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/22/pilot.watch.list/index.htmlA lot of people appear on these watchlists. We know already that some Republican and Democrat legislators including Ted Kennedy have similar names to people on the watchlist and this has caused problems for them. Other people don't know why exactly they are on the list. Moreover, no one is sure what the mechanism to to get off the list if nothing is found to be wrong. I think I'd consider legally have my name changed if I were some of these people. Ironically, the publicity surrounding these names likely has resulted in the actual 'wanted' having done that, although not necessarily legally. But I'm guessing they sure wouldn't be stupid enough to try to get on a plane using that/those names. It is weird, though, that the innocent ones can't just be fingerprinted and cleared in the computers so they don't have to keep dealing with this problem. Seems as if that would be a really easy solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 My brother happens to have a relatively common name, which also happens to appear on a watch list. He travels all the time in his job and has come to expect the same hassle, over and over, whenever he flies. Every time, they explain to him that someone else with his name has been flagged. It seems they could make their own system more efficient and effective by not repeatedly going through the same procedures for the wrong people, over and over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 I think I'd consider legally have my name changed if I were some of these people. Ironically, the publicity surrounding these names likely has resulted in the actual 'wanted' having done that, although not necessarily legally. But I'm guessing they sure wouldn't be stupid enough to try to get on a plane using that/those names. It is weird, though, that the innocent ones can't just be fingerprinted and cleared in the computers so they don't have to keep dealing with this problem. Seems as if that would be a really easy solution. Nope. Keep your name. Then you may have to answer more questions later on about why you changed your name. Oh you were on a watch list? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Nope. Keep your name. Then you may have to answer more questions later on about why you changed your name. Oh you were on a watch list? I actually wouldn't go so far as to change my name, unless I could make some subtle change to my middle name or something that would get me off the watch list, while the change would go relatively unnoticed to most people. I still don't know why they don't finger-print these fliers so their 'innocence' is in the computer data-base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 (edited) ....Moreover, no one is sure what the mechanism to to get off the list if nothing is found to be wrong. No one being anybody too lazy to find out how...from Traveler Identity Verification Forms (TIVF) to the latest DHS Traveler Redress Inquiry Program (DHS TRIP) provisions for appealing their decisions: http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/customer/redress/index.shtm Far better to just shoot from the hip and declare permanent victims for political points. Edited August 23, 2008 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 I've never heard of TIVF (can you provide a link?). My brother has contacted DHS TRIP many times. He still gets pulled aside every time he flies. Fortunately he's very patient and doesn't really mind. I wouldn't say he's claiming any victimhood at all, but I guess if one is overly defensive about an incompetent homeland security program, one would make accusations like that at every criticism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 I've never heard of TIVF (can you provide a link?). My brother has contacted DHS TRIP many times. He still gets pulled aside every time he flies. Fortunately he's very patient and doesn't really mind. I wouldn't say he's claiming any victimhood at all, but I guess if one is overly defensive about an incompetent homeland security program, one would make accusations like that at every criticism. It's not your problem it seems....brother doesn't mind as much as you try to leverage the issue for political gain. Obviously you are not motivated to do your own homework either. The various forms and processes have changed in response to experience and concerns. Don't like it...just stay away from the evil USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 I've never heard of TIVF (can you provide a link?). My brother has contacted DHS TRIP many times. He still gets pulled aside every time he flies. Fortunately he's very patient and doesn't really mind. I wouldn't say he's claiming any victimhood at all, but I guess if one is overly defensive about an incompetent homeland security program, one would make accusations like that at every criticism. link I'm not sure how much good would come of it. If an American who is a "retired Air National Guard brigadier general and a commercial pilot for a major airline who flies passenger planes around the country" who "has even been certified by the Transportation Security Administration to carry a weapon into the cockpit as part of the government's defense program should a terrorist try to commandeer a plane" has "difficulty even getting to his plane because his name is on the government's terrorist 'watch list,' I doubt whether anything one does is effective. link Seems to me if anyone knew how to get off the list/stood a chance of getting off the list, it would be him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 .... Seems to me if anyone knew how to get off the list/stood a chance of getting off the list, it would be him. It's not about his chances or privilege...frankly I am glad that his case is treated like any other. The appeals process does not guarantee a name will be removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 (edited) It's not about his chances or privilege...frankly I am glad that his case is treated like any other. The appeals process does not guarantee a name will be removed. The point being, they are "permanent victims," which you seemed to be refuting earlier. But yeah, I'm glad he still has problems too. I'm glad they gave him a gun and let him fly a plane, but give him problems anyway. That gives me all kinds of confidence in the system. Meanwhile, seems the average joe is learning how to bypass the list: ...although the list is clearly bloated with misidentifications by every official's account, CNN has learned that it may also be ineffective. Numerous people, including all three Robinsons, have figured out that there are ways not to get flagged by the watch list. Denise Robinson says she tells the skycaps her son is on the list, tips heavily and is given boarding passes. And booking her son as "J. Pierce Robinson" also has let the family bypass the watch list hassle. Capt. James Robinson said he has learned that "Jim Robinson" and "J.K. Robinson" are not on the list. And Griffin has tested its effectiveness. When he runs his first and middle name together when making a reservation online, he has no problem checking in at the airport. Maybe your brother could try something like that, BubberMiley. Edited August 23, 2008 by American Woman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 (edited) The various forms and processes have changed in response to experience and concerns. I have no reason to stay home. They always welcome me with a smile at the border. But I didn't think you could provide a link to your imaginary form. Just keep trying to save face for supporting such an incompetent government without backing up your facts. It's worked well so far. Edited August 23, 2008 by BubberMiley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 I have no reason to stay home. They always welcome me with a smile at the border. Do as you please...as will the border agents. All is well. But I didn't think you could provide a link to your imaginary form. Just keep trying to save face for supporting such an incompetent government without backing up your facts. It's worked well so far. More bullshit excuses for your own ignorance....the forms and processes have changed. Sorry we didn't get your permission in Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 More bullshit excuses for your own ignorance....the forms and processes have changed. Sorry we didn't get your permission in Canada. Mad about not being able to provide a link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 The point being, they are "permanent victims," which you seemed to be refuting earlier. Too bad....so sad. More victims just means you have more company to whine with. But yeah, I'm glad he still has problems too. I'm glad they gave him a gun and let him fly a plane, but give him problems anyway. That gives me all kinds of confidence in the system. Your confidence is irrelevant, no matter what kind it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Mad about not being able to provide a link? Not at all, I'm happy to be able to find the forms while you can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 (edited) Too bad....so sad. More victims just means you have more company to whine with.Your confidence is irrelevant, no matter what kind it is. Oh my. It appears someone is getting cranky because they were shown to be wrong. And so bush_cheney2004 ends yet another discussion with the "whining" accusation. If there were such a thing as a Mapleleafweb dictionary, the definition of "whine" would be: 'what bush_cheney2004 comes back with whenever he's backed into a corner.' Edited August 23, 2008 by American Woman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Oh my. It appears someone is getting cranky because they were shown to be wrong. Can you prove the PIVF/TIVF form and process never existed? I can prove it did. And so bush_cheney2004 ends yet another discussion with the "whining" accusation. If there were such a thing as a Mapleleafweb dictionary, the definition of "whine" would be: 'what bush_cheney2004 comes back with whenever he's backed into a corner.' I'm not ending dick.....I just sent BM to the dunce's corner and you are about to follow him there, as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 (edited) Let's start by embarrassing AW with her friends, the ACLU: How can I stop being confused with people who are on the No Fly List or Selectee List? The Office of Transportation Security Redress within the TSA is responsible for assisting passengers who have been delayed or detained because they are mistaken for a person on a watch list. By sending a Traveler Identity Verification Form (TIVF), some people have been able to reduce the confusion between themselves and persons on the lists. However, others have found that the procedure is not fully effective. Information about the process, including copies of the TIVF, are available here. http://www.aclu-wa.org/detail.cfm?id=274 -------------------------------------------- Then for extra credit, let's throw in the bureaucratic red tape that is born with any new government form: Information Collection Requirement Purpose of Data Collection In order to accurately and effectively assess threats to transportation, and in accordance with 49 U.S.C. 114(f), TSA has developed a redress process for individuals who are delayed or prohibited from boarding a flight as a result of the current Watch List clearance procedures performed by air carriers. TSA will collect information from individuals who believe they have been unfairly or incorrectly delayed, denied boarding, or identified for additional screening at our Nation's airports, on a Traveler Identity Verification Form (TIVF). This will allow TSA to properly identify and distinguish individuals who have a name similarity to an entry on either the No-Fly or Selectee lists, and to determine whether individuals who are on the No-Fly or Selectee lists are correctly included on those lists. In order to make these determinations, TSA will compare the identifying data provided on the TIVF to information about individuals identified on the No-Fly and Selectee lists. http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2006/E6-10232.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- And finally, the privacy impact statement for the TIVF program, complete with a copy of the form that AW and BM insist has never existed. http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/privacy...ia_tsa_otsr.pdf Edited August 23, 2008 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted August 24, 2008 Report Share Posted August 24, 2008 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------And finally, the privacy impact statement for the TIVF program, complete with a copy of the form that AW and BM insist has never existed. http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/privacy...ia_tsa_otsr.pdf The only thing I insisted on is making you do some googling. Nice font size though. There may be reams of paperwork and ribbons of redtape for you to copy and paste, but that doesn't explain at all why homeland security is still so incompetent that it cannot waste its resources checking and rechecking the same people, over and over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 24, 2008 Report Share Posted August 24, 2008 The only thing I insisted on is making you do some googling. Nice font size though. No extra charge. There may be reams of paperwork and ribbons of redtape for you to copy and paste, but that doesn't explain at all why homeland security is still so incompetent that it cannot waste its resources checking and rechecking the same people, over and over again. Yet, there is still a pleasant satisfaction in knowing that you and AW were flat ass wrong. As for the waste, go register some guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted August 24, 2008 Report Share Posted August 24, 2008 Yet, there is still a pleasant satisfaction in knowing that you and AW were flat ass wrong. Wrong about what? The incompetence of homeland security in running an efficient operation? Nope, I think I was dead on on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 24, 2008 Report Share Posted August 24, 2008 Wrong about what? The incompetence of homeland security in running an efficient operation? Nope, I think I was dead on on that one. You were wrong about the existence of the form, choosing to squabble with me instead...so I handed you your ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted August 24, 2008 Report Share Posted August 24, 2008 You were wrong about the existence of the form, choosing to squabble with me instead...so I handed you your ass. Unhand my ass, Sir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 24, 2008 Report Share Posted August 24, 2008 Unhand my ass, Sir! I just did....at least you had the courage to face the music...AW just slinked away, as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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