Argus Posted September 21, 2008 Author Report Posted September 21, 2008 It is commendable that our military engages in helping countries in crysis, but let's not forget that any army is AN INSTRUMENT OF MASS MURDER. Soldiers are trained to kill and destroy and their job is killing and destroying (as well as invading, capturing, occupating, etc.)Army is not something a modern society should be proud of. As to the relations with Russia - with the Arctic de-freezing I would say Russia could become Canada's next biggest trading partner. Let's build trade routes instead of picking fights. Uh yeah. Russia is a corrupt, brutal regime which takes what it wants. That's why no one invests in Russia any more. Those idiots who did quickly found that as soon as their investments started to pay off their Russian "partners" demanded they leave, and the Russian government then found all manner of pretexts which forced them out. Big company or small, it makes no difference. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 21, 2008 Author Report Posted September 21, 2008 (edited) I am not defending the liberals because they really haven't done much to make Canada into a "power" so to speak either. The liberals have done just as much as the conservative in turning Canada into a resource welfare economy. What is Harper's claim to fame??He bought some helicopters or something from the US for more than a billion dollars. All Canadians get out of it is some service/maintenance work. What we got out of it were the helicopters. Doh! When you want a car do you decide to go design and build one yourself or buy off GM or Toyota? It would cost us billions to put together the factories and parts to build helicopters, and we only need a few dozen. What then? Try and produce them and sell them abroad? Competing against the huge subsidies of the Europeans and Israelis and Americans? Good luck with that. When those countries build a helicopter they buy a hundred or two - or a thousand or two in the case of the yanks, themselves, which helps them sell them much cheaper than we ever could. Where's the assembly/construction jobs, the real work!!?? So harper has just given away a Billion dollars for what and to whose benefit? At least Trudeau and Chretian had the right attitude towards the US: The one finger Salute. Which got us no helicopters, of course. But apparently, made you feel good. As an aside, we did have such a deal with the UK to help build the helicopters that we had agreed to buy from them - and that deal would have given us a hand in constructing all further helicopters too, even ones sold elsewhere. Chretien canceled it. And used the money to fund blond joke books, canoe museums, and roads to nowhere. That means a part in the design/engineering, assembly/Contruction, and service/maintenance of all military and space equipment. Yeah, okay. Hey, yanks, you know those helicopters you designed twenty years back, and have churned out in the hundreds and thousands since then? Well we demand that you let us help in the design - even though it's already designed - and let us build them - even though we have to build the factories first and that will set back our actually using them for several years and triple the price. Sorry sonny, but you clearly don't have the slightest idea how complex modern military gear is, or how expensive it is to design and build, or how long that takes. Edited September 21, 2008 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
whowhere Posted September 21, 2008 Report Posted September 21, 2008 What we got out of it were the helicopters. Doh! When you want a car do you decide to go design and build one yourself or buy off GM or Toyota? It would cost us billions to put together the factories and parts to build helicopters, and we only need a few dozen. What then? Try and produce them and sell them abroad? Competing against the huge subsidies of the Europeans and Israelis and Americans? Good luck with that. When those countries build a helicopter they buy a hundred or two - or a thousand or two in the case of the yanks, themselves, which helps them sell them much cheaper than we ever could.Which got us no helicopters, of course. But apparently, made you feel good. As an aside, we did have such a deal with the UK to help build the helicopters that we had agreed to buy from them - and that deal would have given us a hand in constructing all further helicopters too, even ones sold elsewhere. Chretien canceled it. And used the money to fund blond joke books, canoe museums, and roads to nowhere. Yeah, okay. Hey, yanks, you know those helicopters you designed twenty years back, and have churned out in the hundreds and thousands since then? Well we demand that you let us help in the design - even though it's already designed - and let us build them - even though we have to build the factories first and that will set back our actually using them for several years and triple the price. Sorry sonny, but you clearly don't have the slightest idea how complex modern military gear is, or how expensive it is to design and build, or how long that takes. Wow, with people like you no wonder Canada is Resource Welfare Country. Quote Job 40 (King James Version) 11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. 12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. 13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
Murray B. Posted September 21, 2008 Report Posted September 21, 2008 Russia's taking our north by force are limited byland... thru Alaska, (just not going to happen)... Hello Army Guy from a civilian 'computer guy'. Although it is unlikely that Russia would cross Alaska there is another country that might. As I understand it the Americans now owe over a trillion dollars to the Peoples Liberation Army of mainland China. How can they repay that debt considering that most U.S. factories have moved offshore? The United states originally bought Alaska from Russia so is it not possible that they might sell it off to satisfy the huge debt. China would want to buy it because they really need the space. As I understand it their population has actually increased by 500 million in the last 25 years despite continual claims that they had the problem under control. Methinks Russia may not be our biggest worry. Quote
Smallc Posted September 21, 2008 Report Posted September 21, 2008 We paid for it then. If our personnel budget is $9B, as I have heard that it is, increasing to 3 million, an increase of 5000% percent, we would need to spend about $450B. That is almost TWICE the Federal budget. Quote
Argus Posted September 21, 2008 Author Report Posted September 21, 2008 Wow, with people like you You mean - smart people? no wonder Canada is Resource Welfare Country. Sure, kid, whatever you say. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Army Guy Posted September 22, 2008 Report Posted September 22, 2008 If our personnel budget is $9B, as I have heard that it is, increasing to 3 million, an increase of 5000% percent, we would need to spend about $450B. That is almost TWICE the Federal budget. The size of the current us mislitary is 2.5 million, there defense budget is in the trillions and it's peace time, Canada increasing it's military strength to 3 million is a war time scenio....with a war time budget. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted September 22, 2008 Report Posted September 22, 2008 Sorry sonny, but you clearly don't have the slightest idea how complex modern military gear is, or how expensive it is to design and build, or how long that takes. I think Argus hit the nail on the head with this one...Puchasing equipment our military needs today off the shelf would cost well over 150 bil....can you imagine the price tag if we had to foot the bill for R&D as well, not to mention we can't afford to wait 8 to 10 years for them to come up with a product that may or may not work....Then have to pay for more R&D money to keep that product updated with the latest in tech.... And you want this from a country who's military has problems with keeping 2500 soldiers in Afgan, good luck with that... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
jbg Posted September 22, 2008 Report Posted September 22, 2008 A country like Canada that fully depends on US for protection could do with no military whatsoever And yet the complaint is that the US doesn't respect Canada enough or seek its input.Do I detect some cognitive dissonance here? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted September 22, 2008 Report Posted September 22, 2008 We totally depend on the US....that's why the HMCS St. John's is off the coast of Haiti helping with their disaster, because we have absolutely no capacity or ability. They are busy rescuing friends and relations of Her Majesty Michelle Jean. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted September 22, 2008 Report Posted September 22, 2008 I swear the to God Canadians have become so passive and benign we are just like those seals waiting to be slaughtered up north!Like the way baby seals are slaughtered in Saskatchewan every spring? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted September 22, 2008 Report Posted September 22, 2008 For starters, if Canada is serious about becoming a "power" Canada could at least start assembling, building, and maintaining its own military equipment instead of donating Canada's resource welfare money to the US for their equipment. Any jackass can take money, go into another country and buy a tank, a jet fighter, and any other military equipment that is out there. Doing this is not power. All it demonstrates you are inept and to stupid to construct this equipment yourself. Not really, Canadians fault we have short sited stupid politicians that are to eager to give Canada's money to the US and other countries.The fact is that Canada and the US are close allies. While each is an independent country the two work more or less as a symetrical unit on many things. WW II is just one example. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
PoliticalCitizen Posted September 22, 2008 Report Posted September 22, 2008 And yet the complaint is that the US doesn't respect Canada enough or seek its input.Do I detect some cognitive dissonance here? There are some countries in Europe with no military at all or a token force. Their well-armed neighbours don't ignore them just because they have no military. In today's world army should not be a decisive factor in international relations. Quote You are what you do.
Army Guy Posted September 22, 2008 Report Posted September 22, 2008 There are some countries in Europe with no military at all or a token force. Their well-armed neighbours don't ignore them just because they have no military. In today's world army should not be a decisive factor in international relations. Thats some stretch, name two and what they have contributed to the european landscape that has been earth shattering. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Smallc Posted September 22, 2008 Report Posted September 22, 2008 The size of the current us mislitary is 2.5 million, there defense budget is in the trillions and it's peace time, Canada increasing it's military strength to 3 million is a war time scenio....with a war time budget. The US defence budget is $580B. Not as high as I thought it would be, but very large. Quote
PoliticalCitizen Posted September 22, 2008 Report Posted September 22, 2008 Thats some stretch, name two and what they have contributed to the european landscape that has been earth shattering. Denmark and Switzerland - if you compare their populations to the size and capabilities of their military you'll see that their forces are more for show than real action... However I do agree that each country in a miliatry alliance has to contribute to the alliance (be it manpower, tech, money, etc.) So let's say in the future EU may opt for a EU Army, then it will not serve any 1 nation's interests but EU as a whole... However same would not be possible in North America where US is actively engaged in perpetrating its imperialistic ambitions everywhere in the world. Quote You are what you do.
White Doors Posted September 22, 2008 Report Posted September 22, 2008 (edited) I am not defending the liberals because they really haven't done much to make Canada into a "power" so to speak either. The liberals have done just as much as the conservative in turning Canada into a resource welfare economy. What is Harper's claim to fame??He bought some helicopters or something from the US for more than a billion dollars. All Canadians get out of it is some service/maintenance work. Where's the assembly/construction jobs, the real work!!?? So harper has just given away a Billion dollars for what and to whose benefit? At least Trudeau and Chretian had the right attitude towards the US: The one finger Salute. The US can go f'ck themselves. With the US credit Crisis, the likes of enron and worldcom, and how Canadians are being held hostage to high gas prices because of American Oil Refiners is not evidence enough the Americans are out to eff everyone around them; I am not sure what more the world needs to see. The smart people recognizes bush is the biggest jackass/turkey to be president in US history. He has single handely brought the US to the brink of an economic collapse. We don't need a Harper led Conservative Government who sees bush as a hero and wants to give Canada's money to the US. We need politician's to tell the American to go eff themselves or deal with Canada on the level. That means a part in the design/engineering, assembly/Contruction, and service/maintenance of all military and space equipment. This is not happening. Until this is happening all Canadas military spending should be directed towards Research and Developement! Once the R&D is complete, Canada can move to the assembly/construction phase. In the interim Canada should return the military to Canada's traditional role of peace keeping, That's it. Canada's politician's need to get serious about Canada and safeguarding Canada's money. Uhm... procuring equipment for the Canadian armed forces is not a national welfare make-work project. We need the best gear at the best price, if that comes from inside Canada, all the better. If not, then too bad, get it anyways. Buying life saving gear for our guys and gals in uniform should be about giving them the best tools PERIOD. It has always mystified me why people seem to think 'made in Canada' as a first priority. It is such juvenile thinking. Edited September 22, 2008 by White Doors Quote Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.~blueblood~
Army Guy Posted September 22, 2008 Report Posted September 22, 2008 Denmark and Switzerland - if you compare their populations to the size and capabilities of their military you'll see that their forces are more for show than real action... Denmark has 25,000 full time , and 63,000 home guard pers.and spends 1.3 of the GDP on defense. denmark population of 5,468,120 people http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107460.html Switzerland. has 220,000 soldiers, spends about 1.06 % GDP Population of 7,554,661 people. I think when we you compare everything such as population, and size of country i think you'll find that they do have sizable militaries, and they are doing there job of keeping thier nations defense....But they are far from keeping no military or token forces.... Compared to Canada's commitment they are in the big leagues, We have 59,000 reg , and 40,000 res But we have over 33,mil people. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted September 22, 2008 Report Posted September 22, 2008 The US defence budget is $580B. Not as high as I thought it would be, but very large. I stand corrected , i was looking at the wrong figures that was the debt, not defense budget.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
PoliticalCitizen Posted September 22, 2008 Report Posted September 22, 2008 Denmark has 25,000 full time , and 63,000 home guard pers.and spends 1.3 of the GDP on defense.denmark population of 5,468,120 people http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107460.html Switzerland. has 220,000 soldiers, spends about 1.06 % GDP Population of 7,554,661 people. I think when we you compare everything such as population, and size of country i think you'll find that they do have sizable militaries, and they are doing there job of keeping thier nations defense....But they are far from keeping no military or token forces.... Compared to Canada's commitment they are in the big leagues, We have 59,000 reg , and 40,000 res But we have over 33,mil people. Switzerland - 12,900 according to Wikepedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union Not sure how correct Wiki is but that number is very far from what you've quoted... and both of the above could probably only defend themselves against Luxembourg or Malta I am OK with Canada's size of the military as of today... I would even be OK with a larger force... but I'm not OK with employing this force and risking our soldiers' lives defending USA's imperialistic ambitions... Quote You are what you do.
Argus Posted September 22, 2008 Author Report Posted September 22, 2008 Denmark has 25,000 full time , and 63,000 home guard pers.and spends 1.3 of the GDP on defense.denmark population of 5,468,120 people http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107460.html Switzerland. has 220,000 soldiers, spends about 1.06 % GDP Population of 7,554,661 people. I think when we you compare everything such as population, and size of country i think you'll find that they do have sizable militaries, and they are doing there job of keeping thier nations defense....But they are far from keeping no military or token forces.... Compared to Canada's commitment they are in the big leagues, We have 59,000 reg , and 40,000 res But we have over 33,mil people. To be comparable to Denmark, then, we'd have to increase the size of our military from 59,000 to about 150,000, an enormous increase that some people suggest we cannot possibly afford. Yet somehow Denmark affords it, along with social programs which are almost certainly better and more generous than ours. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
PoliticalCitizen Posted September 22, 2008 Report Posted September 22, 2008 To be comparable to Denmark, then, we'd have to increase the size of our military from 59,000 to about 150,000, an enormous increase that some people suggest we cannot possibly afford. Yet somehow Denmark affords it, along with social programs which are almost certainly better and more generous than ours. That's true... hmmm... If we plan to go to war more often then I could even suggest 1% of population as the army size. Quote You are what you do.
Smallc Posted September 22, 2008 Report Posted September 22, 2008 To be comparable to Denmark, then, we'd have to increase the size of our military from 59,000 to about 150,000, an enormous increase that some people suggest we cannot possibly afford. Yet somehow Denmark affords it, along with social programs which are almost certainly better and more generous than ours. They only spend slightly more as a percentage of GPD though, so something is missing in those numbers. Quote
Army Guy Posted September 23, 2008 Report Posted September 23, 2008 (edited) Switzerland - 12,900 according to Wikepedia: Read the rest of the column in your link, active duty is your full time regular force pers, S, The swiss have 320,000 reserve pers, which was reduced to 220,000 in 2004. On May 18, 2003, Swiss voters approved the military reform project "Army XXI" to drastically reduce the size of the Swiss Army. Starting in January 2004, the 524,000-strong militia was pared down to 220,000 conscripts, including 80,000 reservists. The defence budget of SFr 4.3 billion ($3.1 billion) was trimmed by SFr 300 million and some 2,000 jobs are expected to be shed between 2004 and 2011.The armed forces consist of a small nucleus of about 3,600 professional staff, half of whom are either instructors or staff officers, with the rest being conscripts or volunteers. All able-bodied Swiss males aged between 19 and 31 must serve, and although entry to recruit school may be delayed due to senior secondary school, it is no longer possible to postpone it for university studies. About one third is excluded for various reasons, and these either serve in Civil Protection or Civilian Service. Visit My Websiteswiss Edited September 23, 2008 by Army Guy Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted September 23, 2008 Report Posted September 23, 2008 They only spend slightly more as a percentage of GPD though, so something is missing in those numbers Which leads to the question, why can they do more with less money....each country divides up it's defense budget differently, so it's not really fair to directly compare. for example, most nations Militaries do not pay for foreign deployments such as Afgan, or UN missions...While the UN pays Canada to take part, only a small percentage of those funds goes back into DND coffers.....other things that come out of the budget, are our National disaster preparedness funds, some Equipment purchases, O&M funds, which include infra structure update and up keep, pay, equip maint costs, etc etc... Other things that need to be taken into context are how well we are payed, our benifits, standard of living, it all costs money in some cases major amounts. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
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