Immigrant closes store after robberies

[Visionseeker]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Here we have a hardworking guy getting screwed by complacent law enforcement.

If I were the mayor of Toronto, I’d offer him $50,000 in immediate restitution for poor law enforcement and promise another $100,000 (all out of the police budget) if he keeps his store open for another two years.

Meanwhile, my chief of police would have 15 days to provide a plan to tackle the problems in the area with my explicit instruction that if this guy gets robbed again, I will welcome the chief’s resignation.

EDITED by moderator:

The title of this thread was changed to Immigrant closes store after robberies in Toronto.

The original title was Damn Immigrants.

The tread was also moved to the "Local Politics" sub-forum.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Charles Anthony
edited title

[jefferiah]

If I were the mayor of Toronto, I’d offer him $50,000 in immediate restitution for poor law enforcement and promise another $100,000 (all out of the police budget) if he keeps his store open for another two years.

Meanwhile, my chief of police would have 15 days to provide a plan to tackle the problems in the area with my explicit instruction that if this guy gets robbed again, I will welcome the chief’s resignation.

I am not sure if the fact that this man is an immigrant has something to do with your overall "point", but this is nothing new. Lots of stores are robbed repeatedly, whether they are owned by immigrants or not. The reality is, that even though 10 times over the past 3 years is alot, 3 years is also a long time to expect the police to have a task force solely devoted to one store in all of Toronto.

[cybercoma]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Here we have a hardworking guy getting screwed by complacent law enforcement.

These are your opinions, so I won't comment on that.

If I were the mayor of Toronto, I’d offer him $50,000 in immediate restitution for poor law enforcement and promise another $100,000 (all out of the police budget) if he keeps his store open for another two years.

If you were Mayor of Toronto, you wouldn't be able to simply redirect funds as you see fit. It would have to be decided by city council; however, taking funds from the police department is pretty short-sighted when really you want to increase policing.

Meanwhile, my chief of police would have 15 days to provide a plan to tackle the problems in the area with my explicit instruction that if this guy gets robbed again, I will welcome the chief’s resignation.

Fifteen days to address problems that people have been trying to address for years? That seems pretty unreasonable, especially considering you want to divert $150,000 from the police budget, which could actually go towards making a difference.

[Wilber]

Here we have a hardworking guy getting screwed by complacent law enforcement.

Why hang it all on the police? When it comes to property crime, most of these guys are back on the street before the cop even finishes the paper work, which our legal system has insured is considerable.

[Visionseeker]

I am not sure if the fact that this man is an immigrant has something to do with your overall "point", but this is nothing new. Lots of stores are robbed repeatedly, whether they are owned by immigrants or not. The reality is, that even though 10 times over the past 3 years is alot, 3 years is also a long time to expect the police to have a task force solely devoted to one store in all of Toronto.

I underscore the immigrant angle for two reasons: first, we commonly see posts here that deride immigrants as some criminal underclass, this speaks to the opposite equation – thus exhibiting the fallacy of such reasoning; second, one has to wonder whether his ethnic origins weighed into the lack of police protection.

In Ottawa, our police were sufficiently troubled by a recent spat of bicycle thefts to mount a sting operation (nabbing something like 16 culprits in the process). If resources are so plentiful that you can conduct bicycle stings, it stands to reason that you could also focus on protecting a repeated victim of theft.

I know this happened in the GTA, not Ottawa. But if the relative availability of police resources in the two communities is largely the same, how is it that protecting this guy never hit a priority list?

[jefferiah]

second, one has to wonder whether his ethnic origins weighed into the lack of police protection.

Well, as I said, this happens with little convenience stores. They do get robbed repeatedly.

OK, let's do some math here.

ten robberies / 3 years

That's ten robberies in 1095 days. I am not adding the two extra days for the two leap years.

Assuming each robbery took no more than one day (which is only reasonable), that means he was robbed 10 days out of 1095 days. And its reasonable to assume that it lasted no longer than 10 or 15 minutes.

Now the police are not psychic. It's pretty hard for the police, who are charged with the task of protecting the entire city of Toronto, to know which 10 days (out of a 1095 day period) robbers will choose to rob this one store.

So since the police are not psychic, the only possible way for them to guarantee the type of protection you think this guy should have, is to watch the shop. The police would have to have officers dedicated to watching this store, 24/7, 365 days a year. And this is not to mention the other small stores which get robbed. Because it certainly would not be fair to provide such a service to one store owner, when others get robbed as well. How many stores do you suppose have been robbed in Toronto? Do you suppose the police should now provide 24/7 guard service to all of these?

[CANADIEN]

Well, as I said, this happens with little convenience stores. They do get robbed repeatedly.

OK, let's do some math here.

ten robberies / 3 years

That's ten robberies in 1095 days. I am not adding the two extra days for the two leap years.

Assuming each robbery took no more than one day (which is only reasonable), that means he was robbed 10 days out of 1095 days. And its reasonable to assume that it lasted no longer than 10 or 15 minutes.

Now the police are not psychic. It's pretty hard for the police, who are charged with the task of protecting the entire city of Toronto, to know which 10 days (out of a 1095 day period) robbers will choose to rob this one store.

So since the police are not psychic, the only possible way for them to guarantee the type of protection you think this guy should have, is to watch the shop. The police would have to have officers dedicated to watching this store, 24/7, 365 days a year. And this is not to mention the other small stores which get robbed. Because it certainly would not be fair to provide such a service to one store owner, when others get robbed as well. How many stores do you suppose have been robbed in Toronto? Do you suppose the police should now provide 24/7 guard service to all of these?

The issue would be... is 10 times in 3 years above average. If that's the case, then the police ought to figure out why, and how to deal with it.

[Wilber]

In Ottawa, our police were sufficiently troubled by a recent spat of bicycle thefts to mount a sting operation (nabbing something like 16 culprits in the process). If resources are so plentiful that you can conduct bicycle stings, it stands to reason that you could also focus on protecting a repeated victim of theft.

They aren't plentiful. The squeaky wheel gets the grease as the saying goes. If enough of the right people make enough noise, something is done but in order to do so, police either get pulled from something else or lots of overtime is paid out.

[Leafless]

They aren't plentiful. The squeaky wheel gets the grease as the saying goes. If enough of the right people make enough noise, something is done but in order to do so, police either get pulled from something else or lots of overtime is paid out.

Won't make any difference.

Canada's absurd right laws overrule law and order and everything else related to the proper management of a country.

[Argus]

I underscore the immigrant angle for two reasons: first, we commonly see posts here that deride immigrants as some criminal underclass, this speaks to the opposite equation – thus exhibiting the fallacy of such reasoning

Except that most street gang members are immigrants, and almost all the rest are the sons of immigrants, and so in all likelihood, almost everyone who robbed this man was the product of our immigration system.

; second, one has to wonder whether his ethnic origins weighed into the lack of police protection.

Canada has one of the lowest numbers of police in the western world. We have far, far less police per citizen than places like the US, UK, and France (I think France actually has 3 times as many police per citizen), and the police we have are burdened by paperwork. I have heard for example, that arresting someone for DUI requires the constables involved to complete something on the order of 18 different forms before they can get back out on the street.

In Ottawa, our police were sufficiently troubled by a recent spat of bicycle thefts to mount a sting operation (nabbing something like 16 culprits in the process). If resources are so plentiful that you can conduct bicycle stings, it stands to reason that you could also focus on protecting a repeated victim of theft.

Those kinds of things are considerably less time intensive. You simply put the bike out on the street, and pick up the guys who come to steal it every half hour. In one or two days you can gather up a considerable number of criminals. But even if the police waited outside this guy's store for a solid month, twenty four hours a day, there's no guarantee a robbery would take place, and they just don't have the manpower for that.

[cybercoma]

Except that most street gang members are immigrants

source?

I honestly don't know to be able to disagree with you, but if you're going to make that kind of statement about immigrants, the least you could do is back it up.

I seem to recall the RCMP having to setup a special division specifically for biker gangs which are primarily made up of white anglo canadians. In fact, didn't the government pass certain laws specifically regarding those types of gangs? I'm not suggesting their the majority of gang members on the street, but it would seem they pose one of the biggest problems for society.

Regardless, if you say immigrants make up the majority of street gang members, I'd like to see where you got that information. If they do make up the majority, I'd like to see that its immigrant gangs causing the worst problems for the country.

[Argus]

source?

I honestly don't know to be able to disagree with you, but if you're going to make that kind of statement about immigrants, the least you could do is back it up.]

Why? Does anyone really doubt it?

Ottawa police hailed the decision to deport the gang members as a positive development that they hoped would deter individuals from other countries from joining or participating in gang activities.

Police intelligence published in the latest edition of the RCMP Gazette magazine revealed more than half of Ottawa's 600 confirmed gang members are born outside of Canada.

Ottawa Citizen

Of course, cities like Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver have many more immigrants, and almost certainly a higher percentage of their street gangs are foreigners.

I seem to recall the RCMP having to setup a special division specifically for biker gangs which are primarily made up of white anglo canadians.

Biker gangs are certainly dangerous, but, for the most part, they keep in the background. They aren't roaming the streets beating and robbing people and having shootouts in shopping malls.

Regardless, if you say immigrants make up the majority of street gang members, I'd like to see where you got that information. If they do make up the majority, I'd like to see that its immigrant gangs causing the worst problems for the country.

Actually, there was an article published in Macleans last year which said that Jamaicans were responsible for about 90% of the shootings in Toronto.

[eyeball]

Biker gangs are certainly dangerous, but, for the most part, they keep in the background. They aren't roaming the streets beating and robbing people and having shootouts in shopping malls.

That's right, they're too busy making money hand over fist.

90% of the people that are robbing others are doing so because they are addicts and need lots of money to pay for the expensive drugs the folks shooting one another are fighting to sell.

Virtually all of the crime that has everyone's ginch in a knot is linked to the war on drugs.

[cybercoma]

I'm not disputing any of the facts you posted, but you're really referring to single cities when you said "most gang members" in general. Biker gangs aren't out in the street doing petty crimes because they're too big for that nonsense. They're the ones selling coke on the streets and having shootouts with one another when there's "territory" disputes. I may be talking out of my ass, but I think a large portion of the cocaine that's distributed in this country passes through biker gangs before hitting the streets.

On the streets of Jamaica, the gang violence has gotten way out of hand as these kids seem to think they're all Don Corleone or Scarface. If you can hunt it down on the internet, see if you can find the show Ross Kemp on Gangs and dig up the episode on Jamaica.

So, I'm not disputing that there is a problem with certain immigrants, but that doesn't mean ALL immigrants from those places are a problem. You pointed out that most gang members are immigrants, but that doesn't translate to most immigrants are gang members. You didn't specifically say that, but you did infer that our immigration system is the source of the problem and that the sons of immigrants make up the rest of the gang members.

I don't think the immigration system is the problem at all. The problem is inadequate policing and a street code of silence. People are afraid to talk to the police about gang activities because if one members gets put away, the other members are going to come after the person that snitched. The kids on the street that are directly affected by gangs everyday don't feel safe and don't feel the police can protect them properly if they do speak up. Honestly, I think if you can solve that problem, it will clean up a lot of the gang troubles in cities like Toronto.

[cybercoma]

That's right, they're too busy making money hand over fist.

90% of the people that are robbing others are doing so because they are addicts and need lots of money to pay for the expensive drugs the folks shooting one another are fighting to sell.

Virtually all of the crime that has everyone's ginch in a knot is linked to the war on drugs.

By controlling the sale of those narcotics. the biker gangs are directly responsible for the junkies and street gangs creating violence over their product.

[eyeball]

By controlling the sale of those narcotics. the biker gangs are directly responsible for the junkies and street gangs creating violence over their product.

By prohibiting those narcotics the state is directly responsible for creating crime.

[cybercoma]

By prohibiting those narcotics the state is directly responsible for creating crime.

You can make that argument, but the other side to that coin is by preventing access to those narcotics the state is saving lives for every person that doesn't try them.

[eyeball]

You can make that argument, but the other side to that coin is by preventing access to those narcotics the state is saving lives for every person that doesn't try them.

Every single person?

Every single person who's been killed or injured by alcohol in this country had the right to equal benefit and protection of the law. The state is denying them that right (Section 15 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms) by not preventing access to alcohol. Incredibly, the state or the province at least, is the gang that's actually making it available to people.

Talk about an organized crime.

I notice we have a new beer and wine store in town. Funnily enough the government liquor store clerks didn't shoot it out with them for invading their turf/market. I wonder why?

[Argus]

I'm not disputing any of the facts you posted, but you're really referring to single cities when you said "most gang members" in general. Biker gangs aren't out in the street doing petty crimes because they're too big for that nonsense. They're the ones selling coke on the streets and having shootouts with one another when there's "territory" disputes.

Think about the kind of personality who gets involved in these gangs. Yes, they're selling drugs, yes they're shooting it out over territorial disputes. But they're also strongarming local businesses, involved in rape, forced prostitution, and robberies. The kind of empowerment which comes from being in a gang means a lot of them think they're free to do just about anything they want.

I may be talking out of my ass, but I think a large portion of the cocaine that's distributed in this country passes through biker gangs before hitting the streets.

A lot certainly is, and in that regard they're responsible for a lot of the secondary violence which is caused by junkies robbing stores like this and committing muggings and other crimes.

So, I'm not disputing that there is a problem with certain immigrants, but that doesn't mean ALL immigrants from those places are a problem. You pointed out that most gang members are immigrants, but that doesn't translate to most immigrants are gang members.

I would never suggest that all or even most immigrants from any given area are criminally oriented. Nevertheless, I feel that if the failure rate, as it were, of a given group of immigrants is substantially higher than other groups we ought to be choosing the groups which succeed on a higher percentage. Only a small number of LG fridges burst into flames, but I still avoid them.

In fact, LG products tend to fail at a higher rate than others, so I don't buy any of them. Why should I when others are available and are less likely to fail? Perhaps because LG products are cheaper. But immigrants from Jamaica don't cost us less than those from any other area. In the end, they cost us more.

You didn't specifically say that, but you did infer that our immigration system is the source of the problem and that the sons of immigrants make up the rest of the gang members.

If half our street gang members are immigrants, then chances are half of all street crime is coming from immigrants too - that would be those muggings and armed robberies from the junkies you were talking about above. I can't remember the last time I saw or read about an arrest of a pimp, for example, and didn't see a black face or read a foreign sounding name. When half your crime is coming from foreigners I don't think it's unfair to point at your immigration system and say there's a problem there. We are letting in some of the wrong people, and finding it almost impossible to get rid of them afterwards.

Edited August 5, 2008 by Argus

[cybercoma]

Is half the crime being committed by immigrants or are half the people being busted immigrants?

[jay22]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Here we have a hardworking guy getting screwed by complacent law enforcement.

If I were the mayor of Toronto, I’d offer him $50,000 in immediate restitution for poor law enforcement and promise another $100,000 (all out of the police budget) if he keeps his store open for another two years.

Meanwhile, my chief of police would have 15 days to provide a plan to tackle the problems in the area with my explicit instruction that if this guy gets robbed again, I will welcome the chief’s resignation.

EDITED by moderator:

The title of this thread was changed to Immigrant closes store after robberies in Toronto.

The original title was Damn Immigrants.

The tread was also moved to the "Local Politics" sub-forum.

While i feel sorry for those people and yes its very sad.However citys can not be paying $50 grand for each store that is robbed.As for the $100,000 a city could go broke paying this amount of money.As for taking it out of the police budget so great then you have enough left for maybe 10 officers.

Edited September 7, 2008 by jay22