Dion's "Liberal Green Shift" carbon tax Plan

[Wilber]

For cars, we are seeing good changes. Other vehicles such as trucks, buses and farm equipment are still in need of improvements.

And yet you say that there is a case for giving farmers compensation. It is this kind of fuzzy thinking that can actually inhibit the growth of cleaner more efficient technology and ensure that something like This never sees the light of day in the North American market. Why is it you think that in all those Kyoto loving, Kyoto signing countries in Western Europe, over 50% of new vehicles sold are diesel powered?

Edited June 24, 2008 by Wilber

[eyeball]

QUOTE(jdobbin @ Jun 22 2008, 03:35 PM)

And Harper and is ilk are okay with their cap and passing on a 40 cent increase in gas via companies passing on their cost? Where is the outrage?

So you agree that politicians who don't know what they are doing do things because they have to be seen doing something even if they don't understand the ramifications of their actions.

We're on the same page today. I've found it curious that more conservatives haven't called their Conservatives on this. Trust me, I'm may be a lefty but nothing would make me sit up and take more notice of a politician's trustworthiness than one who actually stands by what he says. Harper is apparently on record as saying he doesn't believe in AGW and it is very clear that he represents and speaks for a constituency that flat out rejects it as well. It must be particularily galling to many conservatives that Harper can't say what you'd dearly love to hear him say, namely that AGW is a crock and there will be no action forthcoming on or around this issue from this government period.

I am quite certain that Harper is very aware of the ramifications of his actions.

[capricorn]

The Liberals may face legal action for entitling their plan "Green Shift".

Stéphane Dion's cross-country tour promoting his “green shift” hit a potentially embarrassing pothole Monday as a Toronto environmentalist took legal action over what she describes as “blatantly unethical” trademark infringement.

A firm already operating as Green Shift sent a cease and desist letter Monday afternoon to the Liberal Party and the company is considering whether to sue for damages.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home

What happens to the imminent sales pitch to Canadians by the Liberals? Will they have to put action on hold until this is cleared up?

[jdobbin]

And yet you say that there is a case for giving farmers compensation. It is this kind of fuzzy thinking that can actually inhibit the growth of cleaner more efficient technology and ensure that something like This never sees the light of day in the North American market. Why is it you think that in all those Kyoto loving, Kyoto signing countries in Western Europe, over 50% of new vehicles sold are diesel powered?

I think the farmers might be have a strong case for a rebate for marked fuel since many will buy over 100,000 litres in a year and can't get the bulk discounts that others do because of varied buying times. The green plan should be so inflexible as to not help with groups that could have a tough adjustment period such as low income people or farmers.

I don't think farm equipment with poor emissions standards should get a free ride though. Ditto boats and buses. Some older buses are particularly bad yet remain part of the fleet.

Harper's plan will raise gas and diesel even more and I don't see the Conservative plan to lessen the burden.

[jdobbin]

What happens to the imminent sales pitch to Canadians by the Liberals? Will they have to put action on hold until this is cleared up?

The Liberals should change the name just as the Tories did when Baird used ecoTrust.

I had no idea that this company was using the name. The Liberals should apologize and use something else.

[capricorn]

The Liberals should change the name just as the Tories did when Baird used ecoTrust.

That's right.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive...7/13/c5220.html

A name change would also put a halt to the "GST 2" acronym for "Green Shift Tax" going around. Guess you could say the company Green Shift is doing the Liberals a favour.

[Wilber]

I don't think farm equipment with poor emissions standards should get a free ride though. Ditto boats and buses. Some older buses are particularly bad yet remain part of the fleet.

Harper's plan will raise gas and diesel even more and I don't see the Conservative plan to lessen the burden.

I've never been an apologist for Harper's plan. I think economic reality has passed them both by. You're not making any sense here. I thought the idea was to promote the development and use of more efficient technologies, period. Set the standards and let people who know what they are doing determine which fuels and technology are best suited to them rather than making ill informed tax policies based on dogma. Diesel is one technology that is now at the leading edge of that yet Dion figures gasoline should get a free ride and diesel not. This is pure politics and has nothing to do with emissions or technology.

[jdobbin]

I've never been an apologist for Harper's plan. I think economic reality has passed them both by. You're not making any sense here. I thought the idea was to promote the development and use of more efficient technologies, period. Set the standards and let people who know what they are doing determine which fuels and technology are best suited to them rather than making ill informed tax policies based on dogma. Diesel is one technology that is now at the leading edge of that yet Dion figures gasoline should get a free ride and diesel not. This is pure politics and has nothing to do with emissions or technology.

In his speeches this past year Dion has mentioned that gas already has a steeper excise tax and it will remain. It will be changed to a carbon tax rather than one used for other aims of the government.

Diesel has had a lesser excise tax and now that it is moving up 7 cents a litre or 5% over four years. That's less than the rate of inflation.

Diesel may be a leading technology but it still results in emissions and will being taxed at the wholesale level as a result.

The Tory and NDP plans are to regulate and cap diesel and gas emissions at the production level which result in higher prices for both at the retail level.

Edited June 24, 2008 by jdobbin

[Wilber]

I don't think farm equipment with poor emissions standards should get a free ride though. Ditto boats and buses. Some older buses are particularly bad yet remain part of the fleet.

So, the same can be said for a lot of gasoline powered vehicles still on the road. Wait a minute, which do more voters drive, gasoline vehicles or diesels? Pure politics.

[Wilber]

Diesel may be a leading technology but it still results in emissions and will being taxed at the wholesale level as a result.

Bullshit, he wants to tax it according to its carbon content, ignoring the fact that the emissions produced by the vehicles using it are are far lower than those using gasoline as you have admitted yourself. Pure dogma that flies in the face of reality and common sense.

[jbg]

That's right.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive...7/13/c5220.html

A name change would also put a halt to the "GST 2" acronym for "Green Shift Tax" going around. Guess you could say the company Green Shift is doing the Liberals a favour.

I guess if the Liberals had an original slogan name policy initiative it would be their first.

[Wilber]

Diesel has had a lesser excise tax and now that it is moving up 7 cents a litre or 5% over four years. That's less than the rate of inflation.

What, do you think inflation is going to take a four year holiday on diesel to allow for his tax? I'll put it to you on a personal level. I presently drive a 2004 VW diesel. According to Transport Canada it emits 2992 KG of CO2 per year compared to 4031 KG for the comparable gas model. I have been thinking of trading it for one of the new clean diesel models coming out this year. Give me a reason why I should pay the premium to buy one when Dion wants to add an additional tax to the fuel it uses which already costs more than gasoline?

[jdobbin]

So, the same can be said for a lot of gasoline powered vehicles still on the road. Wait a minute, which do more voters drive, gasoline vehicles or diesels? Pure politics.

That is why even the Tories themselves are promoting a plan to get older gas powered vehicles off the road.

[peter_puck]

Well...if we are going to attack Stephen Harper's "approach to any policy challenge", then let's look at the facts.

Fact: Liberals champion them selves as Environmentalists, and the ideal party to curb Global Warming.

Fact: Under the Liberals Green House Gas Emissions rose by nearly 33%

Look at the growth of the Canadian economy during that same period. Economic growth caused the increase in greenhouse gases.

I see your point that the Liberals didn't do a heck of a lot during those years (then again, it wasn't as clear an issue), but to blame them for economic growth seems a little silly.

[jdobbin]

Bullshit, he wants to tax it according to its carbon content, ignoring the fact that the emissions produced by the vehicles using it are are far lower than those using gasoline as you have admitted yourself. Pure dogma that flies in the face of reality and common sense.

Yes, according to carbon content which the chart shows. It means it will receive less of a carbon tax than other fuel products.

[jdobbin]

What, do you think inflation is going to take a four year holiday on diesel to allow for his tax? I'll put it to you on a personal level. I presently drive a 2004 VW diesel. According to Transport Canada it emits 2992 KG of CO2 per year compared to 4031 KG for the comparable gas model. I have been thinking of trading it for one of the new clean diesel models coming out this year. Give me a reason why I should pay the premium to buy one when Dion wants to add an additional tax to the fuel it uses which already costs more than gasoline?

An additional 7 cents a litre four years from now is going to prevent you from buying a better diesel car?

The 50% increase that the oil companies have increased the price since 2006 hasn't discouraged you. Why should this?

[Wilber]

An additional 7 cents a litre four years from now is going to prevent you from buying a better diesel car?

The 50% increase that the oil companies have increased the price since 2006 hasn't discouraged you. Why should this?

Jeez Louise Dobbin, why should I have to pay more to drive a better, more efficient, lower emitting car because of your dumb assed policy? Man you are thick.

[jdobbin]

Jeez Louise Dobbin, why should I have to pay more to drive a better, more efficient, lower emitting car because of your dumb assed policy? Man you are thick.

Why is there a constant fall back to insults? Is this the only thing the right wing knows how to do?

The plan is to pay less for diesel than other forms of energy according to the scale. Diesel has traditionally been taxed less in Canada than say even the U.S. It still does produce emissions, however, and the plan is to tax all emitting forms of energy and industry. Diesel will take far less a percentage of that load than say propane or other fuels.

A car with better mileage is always going to be a better buy. That hasn't changed. A 5% rise in energy tax might not be shown in the pocketbook if the car performs better. The incentive is for the consumer to buy more energy efficient products so to limt their exposure to higher carbon tax.

The Tory and NDP plans are to let industry pass on even higher costs although neither party is saying so. Industry and outside analysts in both the Globe and National Post have indicated that they think the costs will rise considerably more than 5%. I think the hue and cry should be directed there.

[scribblet]

Jeez Louise Dobbin, why should I have to pay more to drive a better, more efficient, lower emitting car because of your dumb assed policy? Man you are thick.

We shouldn't have to, besides I doubt that most of could afford a new hybrid or whatever right away.

The sticker shock for utilities etc. would do us in, we can't afford it, even if there is a rebate at the end of the year, how do we pay for the punitive increases we'll see on everything.

Might as well have a bumper sticker - Vote Liberal - Freeze in the Dark

http://www.torontosun.com/Comment/2008/06/...968111-sun.html

While Stephane Dion promises the Liberals' proposed $15-billion environmental tax would provide riches for the poor and tax cuts for all, he fails to mention consumers in most parts of the country would be in for some shocking electricity bills.

In Ontario, for instance, government figures show Dion's plan would add at least 20% to the overall annual cost of generating electricity across the province.

The impact would be as bad or even worse in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and much of the Maritimes, regions with generating stations powered by fossil fuels -- coal, oil and gas.

-

By coincidence, the one province where electricity bills won't be touched by Dion's plan is the one with all that hydro power -- Quebec.

Imagine that

cont...

[Argus]

Harper's plan will raise gas and diesel even more and I don't see the Conservative plan to lessen the burden.

You mention his "plan" in almost every post. Yet you never mention that your party considered his plan, whatever it's effect on the prices of gasoline turn out to be - to be too low. Your party wanted to raise the price of gasoline even higher.

Absent Harper, absent his "plan" are you going to tell us that Dion would tax every other carbon fuel but not tax gasoline? Of course he would, and it would be higher!

[Argus]

The Tory plan will force consumers to pay even more. That is including diesel.

So are you saying the Liberals would not tax gasoline?

[Wilber]

A car with better mileage is always going to be a better buy. That hasn't changed. A 5% rise in energy tax might not be shown in the pocketbook if the car performs better. The incentive is for the consumer to buy more energy efficient products so to limt their exposure to higher carbon tax.

Dobbin, it is painfully obvious that your policy regarding diesel at least, has nothing to do with promoting the use of more efficient and lower emitting vehicles but merely the simple minded dogma that all carbon must be taxed. It is also painfully obvious that there is no point in trying to talk sense to a politician who has got religion.

[jbg]

Why is there a constant fall back to insults? Is this the only thing the right wing knows how to do?

Yes, Mr. Ignore List.

[jdobbin]

So are you saying the Liberals would not tax gasoline?

The Liberal plan is to keep the excise gas as a carbon tax.

You'll have to ask the Tories why they didn't end the excise tax as they promised in 2005. Maybe they are using it as a carbon tax. Or maybe to fund something else in government.

[jdobbin]

Dobbin, it is painfully obvious that your policy regarding diesel at least, has nothing to do with promoting the use of more efficient and lower emitting vehicles but merely the simple minded dogma that all carbon must be taxed. It is also painfully obvious that there is no point in trying to talk sense to a politician who has got religion.

It is painfully obvious that you will vote for the Tories even though their plan is forecast to raise gas and diesel more. What religion do you think Harper has?