Tories raise five times as much money as cash strapped Liberals.

[Michael Bluth]

Link

Financial returns filed with Elections Canada show that the Tories raised $4.95 million from 44,345 contributors. At the same time, the Liberal party raised only $846,129 from 10,169 contributors.

Once Canada's most efficient political money-raising machine, the Liberals actually brought in less than the New Democratic Party during the first quarter of 2008; the NDP raised $1.1 million from 13,329 donors.

The Liberals can't out fundraise the NDP? Wow, tough times for Steph Dion.

Looks like he'll find another reason to avoid a spring election.

Edited May 1, 2008 by Michael Bluth

[oreodontist]

Yes, the figures are low for the Liberals but there needs to be a context. The figures are for a quarter and not the year. One has to know when the parties start their fundraising drives (mail outs, calls, etc.)

I did some work for the Reform Party in the mid 90's and Reform out fundraised every other party combined in Alberta. ..but that was over a full year. A major fundraising drive was done in early summer and thousands of Albertans each donated small amounts....there was not just more money taken in by Reform but about 12 times the number of contributors as the Liberals and (at that time) the Federal PC Party.

Regardless, those are low figures for the Liberals...if that repeats after the second quarter then they are strapped for cash. One difference in Canada, however, are laws pertaining to equal broadcast time, etc. In Canada the Liberals can still have a high profile and get air time yet be 'broke'.

[Topaz]

Link

The Liberals can't out fundraise the NDP? Wow, tough times for Steph Dion.

Looks like he'll find another reason to avoid a spring election.

Does that inlude the 1.3Mil they scammed the taxpayers for in their last election??

[Michael Bluth]

Does that inlude the 1.3Mil they scammed the taxpayers for in their last election??

No. The disputed money is not in that figure.

If you can read the article makes that pretty clear. Since I'm guessing you can read I assume that the question was an attempt to highjack the thread.

Edited May 1, 2008 by Michael Bluth

[sharkman]

Apparently the Liberal fans around here do not have an accurate picture of the Canadian as they suppose with the 'controversy' over the in and out finances. And the polls may say things are pretty even, yet the Tories are out doing Liberal contributors at over 4 to 1. People that are willing to give actual cash to parties are an indicator that the Liberals would like the voters to never see.

Still, I find it odd that the Liberals are bringing in so little money. Perhaps even their faithful do not trust them with money yet.

[capricorn]

As soon as the election is called, I'm increasing my donation to the Conservative party. I'm on a fixed income. It is not a large amount but these small regular donations from average Canadians account for the party's success in fundraising.

It is rather strange that the Liberal party does not attract more in donations from Liberal party supporters. And I would be willing to bet that many posters here who vociferously support the Liberals have never given a penny to the party.

[Michael Bluth]

It is rather strange that the Liberal party does not attract more in donations from Liberal party supporters.

Still, I find it odd that the Liberals are bringing in so little money. Perhaps even their faithful do not trust them with money yet.

I don't think it's strange or odd. I merely see it that Liberal party supporters are generous to a fault ... as long as they are giving away other people's money and not their own.

[oreodontist]

Apparently the Liberal fans around here do not have an accurate picture of the Canadian as they suppose with the 'controversy' over the in and out finances. And the polls may say things are pretty even, yet the Tories are out doing Liberal contributors at over 4 to 1. People that are willing to give actual cash to parties are an indicator that the Liberals would like the voters to never see.

Still, I find it odd that the Liberals are bringing in so little money. Perhaps even their faithful do not trust them with money yet.

Trust the Liberals

The ratio of contributions is quite a contrast. The highest ratio of any group giving donations are farmers and in Canada they are, for the most part, in the Conservative camp. Having said that, some Conservative numbers can be a bit fuzzy. There is a donation limit for individuals and I know families in the oilpatch that make a donation to the max from each family member....Dad, Mom, grown up daughter, son-in-law, etc. All quitelegal but really all out of one pocket. Even after that, it is striking (in a good way) how the Liberals have fallen on hard times. The lack of funding means that they aren't the party of the backroom boys of Quebec and Bay Street.

[jdobbin]

One of Dion's greatest failures is to not have reformed the party fundraising.

Money is coming in for those who know how to raise it. Witness Rae and Ignatieff. They will have retired their leadership debt by June. Rae has been very fast at eliminating his. Ignatieff is doing quite well himself in recent weeks. Dion, not so good. In fact, I don't know if he can do it before the deadline.

Some of the Liberal MPs have got a good amount banked for their local campaigns. It is the national office that is the laggard. Still, the system as it is set up now still brings in money. There's enough money to run the central office, just not enough to run ad campaigns when there's no election.

Dion's position as leader might be untenable if he can't retire his leadership debt. I have no idea what his plans are to pay it off.

Edited May 2, 2008 by jdobbin

[fellowtraveller]

Dion's position as leader might be untenable if he can't retire his leadership debt

That would be about 8th in terms of priority of reasons why his leadership is untenable. He is closer to the beginning of the nightmare, not the end.

Edited May 2, 2008 by fellowtraveller

[Michael Bluth]

That would be about 8th in terms of priority of reasons why his leadership is untenable. He is closer to the beginning of the nightmare, not the end.

I think the untenability of Dion's leadership is all part of one big problem, with many symptoms. He just 'doesn't get it'.

He refuses to give the same stump speech over and over. It's called getting the message out Steph.

He hasn't worked to pay down his leadership debt. It's called getting your own house in order.

He hasn't forced an election, supposedly because his caucus wouldn't allow it. It's called being a leader Steph.

I guess his only option is to try and wait for a more opportune time to force an election, but in-and-out was as good as he was going to get this year.

[Argus]

There is a donation limit for individuals and I know families in the oilpatch that make a donation to the max from each family member....Dad, Mom, grown up daughter, son-in-law, etc. All quitelegal but really all out of one pocket. Even after that, it is striking (in a good way) how the Liberals have fallen on hard times. The lack of funding means that they aren't the party of the backroom boys of Quebec and Bay Street.

In fact, they ARE the party of backroom boys from Quebec and Bay Street. These figures are nothing new. The Conservatives, even when they were the Alliance or Reform, had vastly more people contributing money than the Liberals ever did. The Liberals raised their money principally from the rich, from big corporate interests. The new fund raising rules have stymied that, and they have not figured out a way around them. Those $10,000 a plate dinners are no longer legal.

[oreodontist]

I think the untenability of Dion's leadership is all part of one big problem, with many symptoms. He just 'doesn't get it'.

He refuses to give the same stump speech over and over. It's called getting the message out Steph.

He hasn't worked to pay down his leadership debt. It's called getting your own house in order.

He hasn't forced an election, supposedly because his caucus wouldn't allow it. It's called being a leader Steph.

I guess his only option is to try and wait for a more opportune time to force an election, but in-and-out was as good as he was going to get this year.

I agree. What puzzles me about his support of the Conservatives over and over in the H of C is that it delays an election. There is no 'silver lining' for Dion down the road. What will get better for him? Meanwhile his leadership position crumbles like some rotten log.

To use the old baseball phrase: why not go down swinging rather than looking at a called strike three? Get out there and challenge the government, force an election and, if the Libs lose, well make it good fight...then resign with some dignity. Instead he looks weak...but even weaker to those in the Liberal Party who want his job.

[HisSelf]

I think the untenability of Dion's leadership is all part of one big problem, with many symptoms. He just 'doesn't get it'.

He refuses to give the same stump speech over and over. It's called getting the message out Steph.

He hasn't worked to pay down his leadership debt. It's called getting your own house in order.

He hasn't forced an election, supposedly because his caucus wouldn't allow it. It's called being a leader Steph.

I guess his only option is to try and wait for a more opportune time to force an election, but in-and-out was as good as he was going to get this year.

I think Dion is definitely the problem. The money is in the west and Ontario. Neither wants to see another Quebec politician as PM. Especially in the West. Harper's advantage is that he is seen as a Westerner (despite the fact that he was a transplanted one). I think Dion also has a personal image problem. He just doesn't come across as prime ministerial. Ignatieff is an arriviste and not a lot better.

I think Rae would have been a better bet for them. Yes he has baggage from his days as Ontario PM, but given enough time in the spotlighht, he could have turned that around. When the economy starts to slow, people start to look for change and they tend to shift left. Rae has a good base in Ontario, and there are a lot of votes in Ontario. There are a lot of votes in Quebec too, but Quebec does not like Dion.

Another interesting tidbit with respect to contributions - the husband/wife team of Heather Reismann/Gerry Schwartz raised some 2.5 million for the Chretien Liberals. During the last Israeli/Lebanon dustup, Schwartz and Reismann swung their allegiance over to Harper because of his strong pro-Israel stance. Of course, it's dangerous to make assumptions based on the past, but if you take away 2.5 mill from the Tories and give that to the Liberals, what have you got?

Edited May 2, 2008 by HisSelf

[sharkman]

I think Dion is definitely the problem. The money is in the west and Ontario. Neither wants to see another Quebec politician as PM. Especially in the West. Harper's advantage is that he is seen as a Westerner (despite the fact that he was a transplanted one). I think Dion also has a personal image problem. He just doesn't come across as prime ministerial. Ignatieff is an arriviste and not a lot better.

I think Rae would have been a better bet for them. Yes he has baggage from his days as Ontario PM, but given enough time in the spotlighht, he could have turned that around. When the economy starts to slow, people start to look for change and they tend to shift left. Rae has a good base in Ontario, and there are a lot of votes in Ontario. There are a lot of votes in Quebec too, but Quebec does not like Dion.

Another interesting tidbit with respect to contributions - the husband/wife team of Heather Reismann/Gerry Schwartz raised some 2.5 million for the Chretien Liberals. During the last Israeli/Lebanon dustup, Schwartz and Reismann swung their allegiance over to Harper because of his strong pro-Israel stance. Of course, it's dangerous to make assumptions based on the past, but if you take away 2.5 mill from the Tories and give that to the Liberals, what have you got?

I'm not sure Dion is the reason money is not coming in, as Argus said, the Liberals have always had problems raising money from small contributors. And you know Liberal supporters really hate Harper(witness the acrimony on this board from those folks) and that should have them putting their money where their mouths are.

I'm not familar with that particular husband/wife team, but it's nice to see the Liberals lose a team like that.

[nothinarian]

I agree. What puzzles me about his support of the Conservatives over and over in the H of C is that it delays an election. There is no 'silver lining' for Dion down the road. What will get better for him? Meanwhile his leadership position crumbles like some rotten log.

economy,economy,economy - elephant in the room

[Michael Bluth]

I agree. What puzzles me about his support of the Conservatives over and over in the H of C is that it delays an election. There is no 'silver lining' for Dion down the road. What will get better for him? Meanwhile his leadership position crumbles like some rotten log.

I believe Nothinarian is partly correct that the only chance for the Liberals to win the next election is the economy. But even that doesn't look like a good card for them at the moment.

Here's a link to an article on the latest employment figures from the U.S.

"It's not good news, but it's not as bad as we thought it would be," said David Wyss, chief economist for Standard & Poor's. "It's consistant with the view it's going to be a mild recession, but an extended one, where you spend a lot of time bouncing around the bottom."

Canadians are more upbeat on the economy than Americans. We are grudgingly accepting gas prices here, as opposed to the outrage in the U.S. A very solid argument for not cutting gas taxes can be made. The number one contributor to GHG emissions in Canada is car exhaust. The message that higher gas prices are part of the price we have to pay to cut our emissions is unassailable, so it would be political suicide for any of the opposition parties to press the Conservatives hard on cutting the gas taxes.

A mild, but extended, recession won't be the death knell for the Conservatives.

The budget slipping into deficit could be quite harmful, but that will be addressed on the spending side in the fall fiscal update. Targeted spending cuts, or merely slowing down the rate of spending increases, are shrewder than running a deficit.

[Wild Bill]

Canadians are more upbeat on the economy than Americans. We are grudgingly accepting gas prices here, as opposed to the outrage in the U.S. A very solid argument for not cutting gas taxes can be made. The number one contributor to GHG emissions in Canada is car exhaust. The message that higher gas prices are part of the price we have to pay to cut our emissions is unassailable, so it would be political suicide for any of the opposition parties to press the Conservatives hard on cutting the gas taxes.

A mild, but extended, recession won't be the death knell for the Conservatives.

The budget slipping into deficit could be quite harmful, but that will be addressed on the spending side in the fall fiscal update. Targeted spending cuts, or merely slowing down the rate of spending increases, are shrewder than running a deficit.

"Grudgingly accepting..."? Well, that's one view. I think it depends on where you live. In my part of Ontario I get a quite different read. People are deeply resentful but feel helpless, with no choice. It comes on top of all the layoffs and job losses. There's little sense of just "cutting back". In the GTA few people have driven for pleasure for years. Long commutes to a job that demands extra hours is the norm. People buy gas BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO! And they're resenting it!

There's a storm brewing here and from what I see coming from Ottawa the Tories are oblivious. It truly looks as if they've written Ontario off and handed it to the Opposition parties. Either that or there is ZERO input from anybody knowledgeable on the ground in Ontario into the Tory war room!

Perhaps the Tories' own polls show that they can achieve a majority without more seats here. No doubt they have access to better data than someone like myself.

Meanwhile, once again it's nostalgia time! I get the same sense of people feeling that they have no choice that I used to feel before the Reform Party came on the scene. I truly believe that much of their seemingly instant support came from intense dissatisfaction with the available choices. My sense is that Ontario voters are desperate for an alternative. If someone offers them one that seems viable the result could be quite dramatic.

It would be a shame if the Opposition took more seats in Ontario and denied Harper his majority but if it happens it looks to me like he asked for it!

[Michael Bluth]

"Grudgingly accepting..."? Well, that's one view. I think it depends on where you live. In my part of Ontario I get a quite different read. People are deeply resentful but feel helpless, with no choice. It comes on top of all the layoffs and job losses. There's little sense of just "cutting back". In the GTA few people have driven for pleasure for years. Long commutes to a job that demands extra hours is the norm. People buy gas BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO! And they're resenting it!

There's a storm brewing here and from what I see coming from Ottawa the Tories are oblivious. It truly looks as if they've written Ontario off and handed it to the Opposition parties. Either that or there is ZERO input from anybody knowledgeable on the ground in Ontario into the Tory war room!

Perhaps the Tories' own polls show that they can achieve a majority without more seats here. No doubt they have access to better data than someone like myself.

Meanwhile, once again it's nostalgia time! I get the same sense of people feeling that they have no choice that I used to feel before the Reform Party came on the scene. I truly believe that much of their seemingly instant support came from intense dissatisfaction with the available choices. My sense is that Ontario voters are desperate for an alternative. If someone offers them one that seems viable the result could be quite dramatic.

It would be a shame if the Opposition took more seats in Ontario and denied Harper his majority but if it happens it looks to me like he asked for it!

Bill I hear you on the feelings of resentment and helplessness. The Conservatives have a very fine line to straddle. Ontario's economy is still growing slowly, but it is tough to look at how much better other parts of the country are doing comparatively and not feel resentful. Part of the resentment is due to the fact that power is slipping away from Ontario. For a long time Ontario was the economic engine that drove the country. Little by little Canada's economic strength is shifting away. Shifting to the strong economies to the west and in the maritimes.

Ontario likely becoming a 'have not' province adds to the feelings of powerlessness, but it is largely a result of how well the other provincial economies are doing.

I don't see it as a lack of knowledge of Ontario on the ground. The Conservatives see the problems, but it is a tough issue to deal with in attempting to govern the country as a whole.

I believe the fall fiscal update will have measures to assist Ontario and the troubled manufacturing sector. As you stated on another thread a good politician should plan a few moves ahead. A cut to the federal gas tax is short-sighted, would hurt the government's fiscal ability to provide help in other areas of the economy and would hammered by economists more than the GST cut.

Short of a cut to federal gas taxes, what measures would recommend to deal with Ontario's concerns?

[nothinarian]

Short of a cut to federal gas taxes, what measures would recommend to deal with Ontario's concerns?

Good point on Ontario Gentlemen

Handouts are the unfortunate political solution or less likely protectionism (see Hillary)

Problem is that aid to manufacturers could be seen as big move away from fiscal conservative base and flip-flop on free market orientation

Probably the best strategy is handouts but opposition will decry too little and too late anyway

Gas tax cut is also no guarantee of savings to citizens - McKenna circa 1993 tried it and saw little change at the pumps so could even backfire

[Wild Bill]

Bill I hear you on the feelings of resentment and helplessness. The Conservatives have a very fine line to straddle. Ontario's economy is still growing slowly, but it is tough to look at how much better other parts of the country are doing comparatively and not feel resentful. Part of the resentment is due to the fact that power is slipping away from Ontario. For a long time Ontario was the economic engine that drove the country. Little by little Canada's economic strength is shifting away. Shifting to the strong economies to the west and in the maritimes.

Ontario likely becoming a 'have not' province adds to the feelings of powerlessness, but it is largely a result of how well the other provincial economies are doing.

I don't see it as a lack of knowledge of Ontario on the ground. The Conservatives see the problems, but it is a tough issue to deal with in attempting to govern the country as a whole.

I believe the fall fiscal update will have measures to assist Ontario and the troubled manufacturing sector. As you stated on another thread a good politician should plan a few moves ahead. A cut to the federal gas tax is short-sighted, would hurt the government's fiscal ability to provide help in other areas of the economy and would hammered by economists more than the GST cut.

Short of a cut to federal gas taxes, what measures would recommend to deal with Ontario's concerns?

Measures? Don't really know offhand, Michael! Fortunately for me, it's not my problem. I'm not the one looking for more seats!

I disagree totally that Ontario folks will become more resentful merely because we're no longer "number one." The average joe couldn't care less! He's concerned with his immediate problems and chooses his vote according to who he feels would help him or hurt him.

I submit that it would be westerners and Newfs who care about provincial ranking. That's something you feel when you are comfortable enough to afford to consider it.

No, the Ontario voter cares about keeping his job! A raise has been out of the question for years! Stats came out last week that showed the average middle class worker's adjusted wages have stayed stagnant for the last 25 years. Except for those I know who work in the public sector, this would agree with what I've observed.

That fall fiscal update better not be as esoteric as most of Flaherty's measures, Michael! That plays well on Bay Street but shoots over the head of the average man. The Liberals have always been good at implying quick fixes, even when they were lying. I'm not suggesting the Tories should lie but they would do well at providing some inspiration! That is the essence of leadership and in Ontario so far I've seen precious little signs of it from this government. Too little Manning with his folksy explanations and too much Ross Perot with his boxes and boxes of flip charts!

As I've stated often before, the Tories need to do far more than just put McGuinty down. We have a few more years of job losses before we'll have the chance to toss him out and even then, what has that got to do with which federal party would be the most positive choice for the Ontario voter?

It's true that the provincial government has the most power to affect the Ontario economy but that's not the issue. It's vital if the Tories want to pick up more seats that not only do they highlight the provincial Liberal failings but that they also appear to be agents of positive change themselves! If they can't do enough within the purview of their own power THEN AND ONLY THEN should the tactic be to show McGuinty as the one who's blocking the road!

Besides, someone should remind Jim Flaherty that his opponent is NOT McGuinty anyway! It's Dion!

We've been hearing election talk for months and yet a political news junkie like myself has sensed less action on the ground here in Ontario by the Tory Party than one would have seen in Quebec from the fractured and impoverished, understaffed party of Dion! Where is Harper's Ontario lieutenant? Where are the efforts to raise awareness down on the street?

A full war chest and and army of volunteers is no guarantee of winning elections. Votes are ALL that count! It was not that long ago in my own riding I watched a young man named Mark Morrow win for the NDP and Bob Rae. I swear Mark ran with $50 in his pocket and only his mother banging on doors but that was all he needed. There was a wave happening and he rode into office upon it! There was a sense that the incumbent Liberals had gotten arrogant and many people wanted a minority government to "teach 'em a bit of a lesson". Unfortunately, too many people had the same idea. I was struck by how many people had expressed that thought to me before election day and flatly refused to admit it after they were horrified by the result!

Maybe downtown Toronto is an insurmountable challenge for the Tories but the rest of the province has been swept before and could be again. Harris did it by providing a clear voting alternative. Eves lost it by fighting for the middle of the road. John Tory blew it by listening to young Turks who were in diapers when Davis instituted funding for the Catholic school system and then skedaddled out of town. That decision had never really been popularly approved, just accepted as a fait accompli.

Just who are the PM's war room advisers, Michael? Lawyers, rich executives and academics only? If they want to make gains in Ontario I think they desperately need an Ontario version of Ralph Klein to provide input. No disrespect to the man but a Chuck Cadman type might give a more accurate read than a Tony Clemente. I've had dinner with Tony and find him a likeable fellow but if I'm going to reach the maximum number of people I'd go with a Chuck-type to tour a few blues bars...

[Michael Bluth]

Measures? Don't really know offhand, Michael! Fortunately for me, it's not my problem. I'm not the one looking for more seats!

"Help me damnit! I'm not sure how, but I want some help now!" Hmmmm, how to come up with a reasonable response to an unreasonable request?

No, the Ontario voter cares about keeping his job! A raise has been out of the question for years! Stats came out last week that showed the average middle class worker's adjusted wages have stayed stagnant for the last 25 years. Except for those I know who work in the public sector, this would agree with what I've observed.

Link? Can't comment on these stats without seeing them.

That fall fiscal update better not be as esoteric as most of Flaherty's measures, Michael! That plays well on Bay Street but shoots over the head of the average man.

Flaherty's measures have been too esoteric? Never heard those complaints before. GST cut aimed at the average man. Tax credit on transit passes, kids fitness credits, textbook credits. None of these measures were esoteric. All aimed at the average voter. The only people complaining about those measures were the Bay Street and silver-spoon socialist crowd.

As I've stated often before, the Tories need to do far more than just put McGuinty down.

If they can't do enough within the purview of their own power THEN AND ONLY THEN should the tactic be to show McGuinty as the one who's blocking the road!

Besides, someone should remind Jim Flaherty that his opponent is NOT McGuinty anyway! It's Dion!

The Conservatives and McGuinty called a truce a few weeks back. You're making recommendations that the Conservatives have already implemented. As a self-proclaimed political news junkie I'm surprised you weren't aware of that.

We've been hearing election talk for months and yet a political news junkie like myself has sensed less action on the ground here in Ontario by the Tory Party than one would have seen in Quebec from the fractured and impoverished, understaffed party of Dion! Where is Harper's Ontario lieutenant? Where are the efforts to raise awareness down on the street?

We aren't in an election. The Conservatives have set the election for October of next year. Harper's Ontario lieutenants? My guess is Jim Flaherty, John Baird and Diane Finley are in their ridings meeting with constituents.

Maybe downtown Toronto is an insurmountable challenge for the Tories but the rest of the province has been swept before and could be again.

The Conservative already hold the majority of seats in Ontario outside the GTA. By taking Toronto out of the equation, there isn't that much room for growth in Ontario for the party.

Just who are the PM's war room advisers, Michael? Lawyers, rich executives and academics only? If they want to make gains in Ontario I think they desperately need an Ontario version of Ralph Klein to provide input.

An Ontario version of Ralph Klein? I believe that Mike Harris does have a good relationship with Harper. Can't think of anyone else in Ontario closer to Ralph than Harris.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

My greatest fear as a westerner is that Trudeau will become once a again a household name. Don't laugh folks, I think it could very well happen. Another western fear is that Ontario finds someone like a Ralph Klein in their neck of the woods.

Your problem back east is the Ontario / Quebec dominance of the political landscape. That little problem of yours has driven many westerners to the brink of giving separation serious thought. To that end an eastern Ralph or another Trudeau could work in our favour You folks in the "economic heartland" need to understand that Canada is a confederation of Provinces that are all supposed to be equal to each other. In fact all provinces are to be equal partners in confederation according to the constitution yet nothing could be further from the truth, and that is the root of the problem. You can't see it from your lofty positions in the political heiracy of this nation but from the depths of the pond scum we not just see it but live it everyday.

Edited May 4, 2008 by Jerry J. Fortin

[Wild Bill]

"Help me damnit! I'm not sure how, but I want some help now!" Hmmmm, how to come up with a reasonable response to an unreasonable request?

Link? Can't comment on these stats without seeing them.

Flaherty's measures have been too esoteric? Never heard those complaints before. GST cut aimed at the average man. Tax credit on transit passes, kids fitness credits, textbook credits. None of these measures were esoteric. All aimed at the average voter. The only people complaining about those measures were the Bay Street and silver-spoon socialist crowd.

The Conservatives and McGuinty called a truce a few weeks back. You're making recommendations that the Conservatives have already implemented. As a self-proclaimed political news junkie I'm surprised you weren't aware of that.

We aren't in an election. The Conservatives have set the election for October of next year. Harper's Ontario lieutenants? My guess is Jim Flaherty, John Baird and Diane Finley are in their ridings meeting with constituents.

The Conservative already hold the majority of seats in Ontario outside the GTA. By taking Toronto out of the equation, there isn't that much room for growth in Ontario for the party.

An Ontario version of Ralph Klein? I believe that Mike Harris does have a good relationship with Harper. Can't think of anyone else in Ontario closer to Ralph than Harris.

Well, here's a link. Actually, it shows that the entire country has experienced income stagnation but that doesn't change the feelings here in Ontario.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...ry/?query=valpy

As for Flaherty's measures like transit passes, while valid they're hardly high profile. I'm not saying they don't have value, just that they are about as exciting to the common man as the typical CBC NW documentary about gay rights in native communities north of the Arctic circle.

Yeah, I missed the truce. I was in the hospital having a quadruple bypass so I was a bit pre-occupied! I'm catching up as fast as I can. Thank heavens for Mike Duffy!

True, we're not in an election but we're definitely in pre-election mode. The writ could be dropped at any time and it would be a bit late then to start trying to increase a party's appeal. These months are a golden opportunity to try to increase Tory attractiveness to the voters. I'm just saying if there is anything happening it sure seems low key.

As for Jim Flaherty, John Baird and Diane Finley, that's a mixed bag. Jim still has a good rep in southwestern Ontario and the 605 belt. Not likely to be any help at all in making 416 inroads. John Baird seems to be a good man but not that well known. The type of guy you call reliable and punctual. Low on charisma but strong on character.

Poor Diane is damaged goods after Caledonia, I'm afraid. I'll bet a shot of The Glenlivet she won't retain her seat. Pity, for it's not really her fault but the depth of despair and frustration from her constituents over the native protest is just too much for her to overcome. McGuinty bears the brunt of their anger but the feds are regarded as having done nothing but watch McGuinty squirm, at the town's expense.

As for the Tories holding the majority of the seats outside of the GTA, I would wager it would be easier to try to pick up seats from what's left than from the GTA.

Harris? Hard to argue that there's a man who understands the mood of the Ontario voter, after his successes. The question is, is Harper listening to him?

It's all supposition at this point, Michael. The election will prove or disprove your views, the Tory views or my views.

It's just that I really DON'T WANT to be able to say I told you so!

Edited May 4, 2008 by Wild Bill

[Wild Bill]

My greatest fear as a westerner is that Trudeau will become once a again a household name. Don't laugh folks, I think it could very well happen. Another western fear is that Ontario finds someone like a Ralph Klein in their neck of the woods.

Your problem back east is the Ontario / Quebec dominance of the political landscape. That little problem of yours has driven many westerners to the brink of giving separation serious thought. To that end an eastern Ralph or another Trudeau could work in our favour You folks in the "economic heartland" need to understand that Canada is a confederation of Provinces that are all supposed to be equal to each other. In fact all provinces are to be equal partners in confederation according to the constitution yet nothing could be further from the truth, and that is the root of the problem. You can't see it from your lofty positions in the political heiracy of this nation but from the depths of the pond scum we not just see it but live it everyday.

You should look at things less like an academic, Jerry. The common Joe in Ontario doesn't get up each morning and say to himself: "Gee! Isn't it great that we dominate Canada! It's so nice to be in such a lofty position! I'm so glad that we are more equal than the other partners!"

No, if the truth be told the common Joe never thinks about such things at all! He thinks about trying to hold on to his job through layoff after layoff, closure after closure.

If he thinks about his place in Canada at all he might think about how a big hunk of his taxes have gone to other provinces in the form of equalization payments. It doesn't matter how fairly or how intelligently his taxes were spent. That's in the hands of the federal government and not in his control. All he knows is that he's left with less for himself and his family.

A good percentage of these Joes are too young to remember how Trudeau screwed the West with the NEP. In their lifetime they've only seen the West become prosperous with oil money. That colours their perception.

We can argue like political history junkies all we want Jerry but that was never my point. You'd likely find that I agree with you on virtually everything in that area. After all, I was one of the very first Ontario members in the Reform Party, card issued 10/06/91.

What IS my point is how the Tories should be working to gain even more seats in Ontario next election! This is not going to happen if the perception is that a western based Tory party regards Ontario's troubles as their "just desserts" for all those years of western alienation. I'm sincerely worried that the Tories are going to LOSE ground if they don't step it up a notch!

If the Tory party achieves a majority there's a chance that some of those buried Reform planks, like a triple E senate, might be resurrected. I'm not totally confident Harper's party would do it but it's the only hope we have. There's much more chance of getting support for such ideas from Ontario if the people there didn't feel like you were scolding them!