Earth Day!

[Qwerty]

It is indeed a left idea but it is a very good one. The right doesn't have a monopoly on good ideas, once in a while the left comes up with a good one too.

I think it's great that today is a day to raise awareness of the environment and how to recycle, etc. Everyone should do it. To not recycle is irresponsible and makes no sense to me at all.

I think that we have far too many days to celebrate everything but this is one that should stay. Earth Day makes a positive change on people and puts international scrutiny on many multi-national corporations who are the most guilty of trashing our environment.

That being said we need a more aggressive environmental program that will not cripple our economy. Whatever can be done should be done as long as it is fiscally responsible I am for it for one. I think that the government needs to do more in the way of the environment to ensure we have places to go that remain forested and more importantly I will continue to have places that I can fish.

What do you people think of recycling/conservation and/or Earth Day?

[eyeball]

I'm a lefty, apparently, and while I think conservation is paramount and the recycling of some things makes sense, I also think the whole Earth Day thing is a cop-out. I feel the same the way about Earth Day as some Christians feel about Xmas Day.

[guyser]

I feel the same the way about Earth Day as some Christians feel about Xmas Day.

You give gifts ,get drunk and OD on Turkey ?

Sounds like a fun day

[eyeball]

You give gifts ,get drunk and OD on Turkey ?

Sounds like a fun day

Its so much fun we should do it at least once a week.

[madmax]

It is indeed a left idea but it is a very good one.

How is recycling a "left" idea?

[Wild Bill]

It is indeed a left idea but it is a very good one. The right doesn't have a monopoly on good ideas, once in a while the left comes up with a good one too.

I think it's great that today is a day to raise awareness of the environment and how to recycle, etc. Everyone should do it. To not recycle is irresponsible and makes no sense to me at all.

I think that we have far too many days to celebrate everything but this is one that should stay. Earth Day makes a positive change on people and puts international scrutiny on many multi-national corporations who are the most guilty of trashing our environment.

That being said we need a more aggressive environmental program that will not cripple our economy. Whatever can be done should be done as long as it is fiscally responsible I am for it for one. I think that the government needs to do more in the way of the environment to ensure we have places to go that remain forested and more importantly I will continue to have places that I can fish.

What do you people think of recycling/conservation and/or Earth Day?

Raise awareness? Sorry, that smacks of just "touchy-feely" to me. I feel I already know more than the average person, thank you. I'd rather see concrete action than just more "raise awareness" programs.

Recycling in principle is of course a good idea. Sadly, in practice it often gets impractical and inefficient. Here in Hamilton the city chose to make citizens do their own garbage separation. What they're really doing is downloading the labour onto the taxpayers. Frankly, I'm busy enough. I'm just glad I no longer waste an extra 3 hours a day in commuting to work. If I was still doing that and had to come home to separating all the recyclables I think I might snap and go postal some day.

Across the border in the USA they recycle at destination. Big plants collect all the garbage and people have jobs using machine assist to separate all the recyclable materials. Seems to work fine for them. Citizens pay taxes for services so THEY DON'T HAVE TO DO IT THEMSELVES! Where is this idea of downloading labour onto the citizens going to stop? What advantage will we have to live in cities then at all?

Turning out the lights for an hour struck me as so goofy as to be almost irresponsible. I worried about the power surge when the hour was up and things were turned back on. That was just asking for a failure in the power grid!

Moreover, while it may have "raised awareness" that's about all it did. Electricity cannot be stored. It must be produced to meet demand. Save 10-20% for an hour and you have NOTHING in the bank! You've accomplished nothing to help meet demand the next hot summer day when the airconditioners are all cranked to the max.

Those new compact florescent bulbs are not exactly what we've been told, either. Lighting is the smallest part of your monthly bill. Compared to the power to run stoves, air conditioners, washers/dryers and furnace motors the charge for your lights is "mice nuts". It WILL slightly reduce the load on the generating stations, which is a benefit for the provincial electrical company. It just won't even buy you an extra case of beer or two with any savings on your home bill, so no real benefit to YOU!

Conservation is really just another name for efficiency. Even if you could achieve the utopian goal of 100% efficiency you still need more capacity if your population and infrastructure needs have grown. We've ALREADY done the easy things for energy conservation! Pretty well everybody has changed their bulbs and insulated and caulked as much as they can afford. Now what? The Ontario government hasn't built new generating capacity for years, choosing instead to push "conservation", as if the problem is OUR fault as citizens! Now they are frantically playing catchup, with new nukes that will take years to implement. McGuinty lives in fear of another summer or worse, winter blackout. People won't listen to excuses at that point. They will just blame the government in power and he knows it!

Suppose you had a farm that supported a community of 50 people. A few babies are born so there's a few more mouths to feed. So you go out and improve farming efficiencies and grow more food. You keep doing this and after a few years you start to hit the limit for any gains in food production, no matter how much you've "conserved". Then 500 hungry townsfolk come into your community.

Conservation or no, you will then HAVE to start plowing some new farmland! If you don't have new generating capacity, you're gonna starve.

Believe me, going hungry in the cold and dark will efficiently raise your awareness!

[Qwerty]

It is touchy feely and I'm probably one of the most conservative people on this board but I find recycling to be a good idea. Taking things that would normally sit in a landfill and break them down and make something else useful from them makes sense to me.

Well while Wild Bill is throwing his Mcdonalds wrappers out the window while driving his SUV, I'll sort these bottles and cans.

Hehe, seriously though. Here all I need to do is throw my recycles into the recycling bin and thats it, we don't need to sort it here. For every idea no matter hjow sound there is always some quasi-intellectual waiting to disprove you with unbeatable proof.

So, Wild Bill you would prefer if we didn't recycle and still used DDT and green house gases...that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

[Wild Bill]

It is touchy feely and I'm probably one of the most conservative people on this board but I find recycling to be a good idea. Taking things that would normally sit in a landfill and break them down and make something else useful from them makes sense to me.

Well while Wild Bill is throwing his Mcdonalds wrappers out the window while driving his SUV, I'll sort these bottles and cans.

Hehe, seriously though. Here all I need to do is throw my recycles into the recycling bin and thats it, we don't need to sort it here. For every idea no matter hjow sound there is always some quasi-intellectual waiting to disprove you with unbeatable proof.

So, Wild Bill you would prefer if we didn't recycle and still used DDT and green house gases...that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Straw man and ad hominem, Qwerty. I never said any such thing! Did I not say that in principle recycling is a good idea?

If you read my words again perhaps you'll see on the second pass that what I'm arguing against is not the idea of recycling but doing it for real with methods that have true positive benefit, rather than just trying to BS citizens that we're accomplishing something 'cuz "we're all in this together!"

It's been revealed that here in Hamilton if the price of recycled glass is too low the city often just throws all the collected glass into the regular landfill. Also, the buyers for recycled paper are well aware that the city can only stockpile a couple of weeks worth of paper. So they offer a very low price. If the city doesn't like it they just wait. In a couple of weeks the city is desperate to get rid of it and sells it even cheaper!

McGuinty made a campaign promise to close down the Nanticoke coal generating station, one of the dirtiest on the planet. After he got elected he finally figured out what anybody with a high school education would already have known, that if he closed it he didn't have any extra power capacity to cover it! So he broke his promise and kept making new deadlines at least 10 years in the future, when he hopes to have new nukes on board.

Meanwhile, because with Nanticoke he heated up his own political hot potato, he flatly refuses to talk about modern smokestack scrubbers that will clean up all the pollutants coming out of the plant! He doesn't want to be embarrassed about his broken promises so he won't at least clean the damn thing up while he's still running it for the next 10 years!

There are all kinds of REAL things we could be doing on the pollution front. As I had said, if we allowed companies to separate recyclables at a central depot instead of every citizen having to put in the time we'd probably get a lot more people putting stuff out in their blue boxes. We also could use modern clean technologies of incineration to drastically reduce landfill and produce power as a bonus. If we ponied up the costs of transmission lines from Winnipeg and Quebec we could buy electricity from fellow Canadians instead of buying it from the Americans down south. Our neighbouring provinces have cheap surplus power in spades to sell to us. The Americans often can't help us out 'cuz they are short themselves!

On a bigger scale, we should've built some new nukes 20 years ago. It's true that the Ontario Hydro blew it with cost overruns on the reactors they built years ago. So what? There are a lot of other countries that have better managed technologies. We could simply tell those domestic vendors to take a hike.

Many American states have laws that if you produce power on your own you can sell your surplus back to the grid, with a 2 way meter. This really helps. You can make enough money when you have extra in the warm months to pay for what you have to buy in the cold ones. In Ontario you can't do this! Only a large scale operation can get such a deal. Homeowners are told officially that they can do this but in practice they make you jump through so many silly building codes that you just can't afford to do it. Why? I'm not sure if it's just stuffiness but I suspect that the Ontario government really doesn't want us to get "off grid"! There's still 30 some BILLION dollars of stranded Ontario Hydro debt that we here are paying off with a surcharge on our monthly bill. If we got off grid and didn't get a bill then they wouldn't be able to make us pay back that huge debt THEY ran up!

So go ahead and call me down for not wanting to join your "touchy feely" crowd, Qwerty. Meanwhile, I'll be supporting approaches to achieve YOUR VERY GOALS that might actually WORK!

[Qwerty]

Straw man and ad hominem, Qwerty. I never said any such thing! Did I not say that in principle recycling is a good idea?

If you read my words again perhaps you'll see on the second pass that what I'm arguing against is not the idea of recycling but doing it for real with methods that have true positive benefit, rather than just trying to BS citizens that we're accomplishing something 'cuz "we're all in this together!"

It's been revealed that here in Hamilton if the price of recycled glass is too low the city often just throws all the collected glass into the regular landfill. Also, the buyers for recycled paper are well aware that the city can only stockpile a couple of weeks worth of paper. So they offer a very low price. If the city doesn't like it they just wait. In a couple of weeks the city is desperate to get rid of it and sells it even cheaper!

McGuinty made a campaign promise to close down the Nanticoke coal generating station, one of the dirtiest on the planet. After he got elected he finally figured out what anybody with a high school education would already have known, that if he closed it he didn't have any extra power capacity to cover it! So he broke his promise and kept making new deadlines at least 10 years in the future, when he hopes to have new nukes on board.

Meanwhile, because with Nanticoke he heated up his own political hot potato, he flatly refuses to talk about modern smokestack scrubbers that will clean up all the pollutants coming out of the plant! He doesn't want to be embarrassed about his broken promises so he won't at least clean the damn thing up while he's still running it for the next 10 years!

There are all kinds of REAL things we could be doing on the pollution front. As I had said, if we allowed companies to separate recyclables at a central depot instead of every citizen having to put in the time we'd probably get a lot more people putting stuff out in their blue boxes. We also could use modern clean technologies of incineration to drastically reduce landfill and produce power as a bonus. If we ponied up the costs of transmission lines from Winnipeg and Quebec we could buy electricity from fellow Canadians instead of buying it from the Americans down south. Our neighbouring provinces have cheap surplus power in spades to sell to us. The Americans often can't help us out 'cuz they are short themselves!

On a bigger scale, we should've built some new nukes 20 years ago. It's true that the Ontario Hydro blew it with cost overruns on the reactors they built years ago. So what? There are a lot of other countries that have better managed technologies. We could simply tell those domestic vendors to take a hike.

Many American states have laws that if you produce power on your own you can sell your surplus back to the grid, with a 2 way meter. This really helps. You can make enough money when you have extra in the warm months to pay for what you have to buy in the cold ones. In Ontario you can't do this! Only a large scale operation can get such a deal. Homeowners are told officially that they can do this but in practice they make you jump through so many silly building codes that you just can't afford to do it. Why? I'm not sure if it's just stuffiness but I suspect that the Ontario government really doesn't want us to get "off grid"! There's still 30 some BILLION dollars of stranded Ontario Hydro debt that we here are paying off with a surcharge on our monthly bill. If we got off grid and didn't get a bill then they wouldn't be able to make us pay back that huge debt THEY ran up!

So go ahead and call me down for not wanting to join your "touchy feely" crowd, Qwerty. Meanwhile, I'll be supporting approaches to achieve YOUR VERY GOALS that might actually WORK!

Ah but Wild Bill, look it's working. We are two people and we are having dialog about the very obvious problems that we all face.

I agree with what you say for sure. Politicians are playing politic too much out of fear and not governing enough which is there real purpose.

I have never heard of somewhere that doesn't sort recycling, except when I lived in Calgary, that is absolutely absurd. Have you spoken with someone about this?

Back when they was talk of more reactors we had all those nuclear paranoia freaks. I am convinced that they are all the same lobbyists that change their hats and move to the next hot issue.

The power problem is only going to be compounded in the very near future due to the constantly growing population and expansion.

For the record they aren't my crowd, don't say that again. I hate lefties, commies, reds to the degree that I consider running them over in my car.

Never mind, I will stick to my right wing conservative rants. I'm not going to painted a leftist scum by anyone...sorry.

[Borg]

Oh heck, just burn it and bury the ashes

Borg

[Wild Bill]

I have never heard of somewhere that doesn't sort recycling, except when I lived in Calgary, that is absolutely absurd. Have you spoken with someone about this?

For the record they aren't my crowd, don't say that again. I hate lefties, commies, reds to the degree that I consider running them over in my car.

Never mind, I will stick to my right wing conservative rants. I'm not going to painted a leftist scum by anyone...sorry.

Sorry, when you put words in my mouth with your shot about McDonalds wrappers and SUVs I assumed you were leftist 'cuz that's a common leftist debating tactic.

Any, as far as sorting garbage take a look at Buffalo. Or lots of American cities. They DO sort, they just don't expect their citizens to do it. Garbage is taken to a central plant and the sorting is done there. The sorting provides employment. After machines have done some initial processing (like big magnets to pull out the ferrous metals, I assume) you'll see long conveyor belts. Workers stand beside the belts wearing big gloves and sort materials as they flow by.

They have proven that we don't HAVE to make citizens separate all recyclables at their homes! It would be interesting if we could scrounge up some studies or stats to show us comparable efficiencies of the two approaches.

I still remember how during Bob Rae's term in power in Ontario how he and his people were rabidly against the very idea of incineration. His energy minister Ruth Grier was a fanatic on the subject. They had a 1950's image of incineration as being dirty and smelly. Nothing was going to shake that.

Meanwhile, municipalities were running out of landfill area. Toronto was heading for a crisis. Incineration of course drastically reduces the volume of waste down to ashes. Ruth however would not be swayed.

Then a company appeared that claimed to have built and operated clean incinerator plants that not only released only tiny amounts of pollution but produced profitable amounts of electricity! They had pictures of their plant in Florida. It was buried under grass worthy of a gold course and except for the trucks coming in and out of the yard you would hardly have noticed it in a residential neighbourhood. It seemed to be as "green" as anyone could possibly ask.

Ruth said NO! She refused to even talk about it, other than to say that it couldn't possibly work. I guess she thought that all the working plants must have been hallucinations. The company offered to fly her and her entourage down to Florida at company expense, to see for themselves.

Again, Ruth refused. I always had known that the NDP rarely were that scientific in their thinking but I hadn't known they were such fanatics! I assumed that we had a real problem with waste and that the consideration about possible solutions would be based on science and engineering.

Man, was I naive!

Eventually, the leftists in Toronto "solved" their landfill problem by shipping their garbage with hundreds of trucks every day down the highway to landfill sites in Michigan! They were so proud of themselves for not allowing any "dirty" solution in their city!

We desperately need that "B" Ark from the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy!

[Qwerty]

Nah we should just throw garbage into the street, why waste tax money on collection. They are filling the streets with immigrants already so lets make them feel at home. We can make Canada look like their homeland, that way we'll be making some real accommodations.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Qwerty

[margrace]

Oh heck, just burn it and bury the ashes

Borg

Yes my husband agrees fully with you especially in burning plastic. The other side of it is that plastic smells horrible when it is burning and my husband has a full case of asthma and wonders where it came from. Couldn't be the air quality, oh no, he is sick and tired of listening to that BS.

[Wild Bill]

Yes my husband agrees fully with you especially in burning plastic. The other side of it is that plastic smells horrible when it is burning and my husband has a full case of asthma and wonders where it came from. Couldn't be the air quality, oh no, he is sick and tired of listening to that BS.

The incinerator technology referred to is nothing like you seem to envision. It's NOT ordinary burning! It's such a flippin' hot plasma that it would instantly burn up not just the plastic or it's smell but perhaps the very idea it existed!

The amount of pollutants released into the air is less than a politician's promise! We're talking CLEAN!

Your suggestion just isn't even remotely relevant. Don't be embarrassed. The entire Ontario NDP party seems to hold that 1950's idea of incineration, along with a host of so-called "green" groups. The problem is that these problems cannot be solved by poli-sci graduates. Technical problems can only be solved by technical people.

[Qwerty]

The incinerator technology referred to is nothing like you seem to envision. It's NOT ordinary burning! It's such a flippin' hot plasma that it would instantly burn up not just the plastic or it's smell but perhaps the very idea it existed!

The amount of pollutants released into the air is less than a politician's promise! We're talking CLEAN!

Your suggestion just isn't even remotely relevant. Don't be embarrassed. The entire Ontario NDP party seems to hold that 1950's idea of incineration, along with a host of so-called "green" groups. The problem is that these problems cannot be solved by poli-sci graduates. Technical problems can only be solved by technical people.

I have written the provincal Liberals and Mayor Miller on this three separate times each on this issue. I sent it registered Mail each time so I know they got it personally. I have the receipts.

But they haven't responded....

[FTA Lawyer]

I am certainly not against recycling, but I'm about to make a "do as I say not as I do" type of comment on this issue...

All the recycling in the world is foolish really...reduced consumption is what we should aspire to. My kids have 3,478 toys at last count, 3,410 of which they could probably survive without.

I and basically every neighbour on my street each own $5K worth of tools that fill our respective garages and collectively get used on about 20% of the days of the year. Good for Canadian Tire, bad for Mother Earth.

We clothe ourselves not for need but "fashion", we toss out refrigerators full of old "leftovers" that don't get eaten every week because we just don't feel like the same supper as two days ago, and on and on and on.

If we really want to have a serious impact (and again, I acknowledge I am not pulling my weight on this) recycling is hardly the answer...it's an excuse we use to make us feel better about our ravenous and insatiable appetite to consume.

FTA

[Wilber]

Makes sense to use modern incinerators to make power. Garbage will end up producing the same amount of CO2 decomposing as it will if you burn it. Putting incinerators in an air shed that already has an air quality problem would stupid however. Now matter how efficient they are, there will still be emissions.

We have been recycling and composting for over 20 years and it just seems the normal way to do things. My wife was bitching about washing out an empty mayonnaise bottle tonight. I said throw it out. She said no. I said you'll feel guilty right? She said yup.

[Wilber]

I and basically every neighbour on my street each own $5K worth of tools that fill our respective garages and collectively get used on about 20% of the days of the year. Good for Canadian Tire, bad for Mother Earth.

Ah but tools are the best, they always get recycled and are never thrown out unless they break.

[Fortunata]

If we really want to have a serious impact (and again, I acknowledge I am not pulling my weight on this) recycling is hardly the answer...it's an excuse we use to make us feel better about our ravenous and insatiable appetite to consume.

If you are a serious recycler you probably are already a serious reducer and reuser. Recycling is tiresome so reducing the recycling should always be the first goal.

[Wild Bill]

Makes sense to use modern incinerators to make power. Garbage will end up producing the same amount of CO2 decomposing as it will if you burn it. Putting incinerators in an air shed that already has an air quality problem would stupid however. Now matter how efficient they are, there will still be emissions.

We have been recycling and composting for over 20 years and it just seems the normal way to do things. My wife was bitching about washing out an empty mayonnaise bottle tonight. I said throw it out. She said no. I said you'll feel guilty right? She said yup.

PLEASE! READ WHAT I SAID! THE EMISSIONS WILL BE MICE NUTS!

Modern incinerators are not ordinary burning systems. They are extremely high temperature systems. We're talking plasma furnaces. Yes there will still be emissions but they will be so low compared to the old-fashioned method that it would be like comparing a city's entire sewage output with a gnat's fart!

You are the second poster who seems to think we're talking a system like burning garbage in a pile in your back yard. Maybe as a people we Canadians just no longer have enough science in our education to get out of the 1950's.

[madmax]

I am certainly not against recycling, but I'm about to make a "do as I say not as I do" type of comment on this issue...

All the recycling in the world is foolish really...reduced consumption is what we should aspire to. My kids have 3,478 toys at last count, 3,410 of which they could probably survive without.

FTA

Hello FTA Lawyer.

You live in a wealthy area with established consumption rate. In the meantime, their are churches and other religious establishments with excellent outreach programs that would be happy to "recycle" some of those toys, I would be surprised if one church has room for 100 of them, but hey, who knows.

I know that when toys are donated and the people can get a meal and take one for their kids, it is often the toys that go first.... once that is when you let the kids know that it is ok for them to have.

If you wish to embark on such an endeavour, you will feel better then just the feel good recycling program. Somebody will actually get a net benefit from your gesture.

[madmax]

Ah but tools are the best, they always get recycled and are never thrown out unless they break.

And you can take em back if they break......

[madmax]

PLEASE! READ WHAT I SAID! THE EMISSIONS WILL BE MICE NUTS!

Modern incinerators are not ordinary burning systems. They are extremely high temperature systems. We're talking plasma furnaces. Yes there will still be emissions but they will be so low compared to the old-fashioned method that it would be like comparing a city's entire sewage output with a gnat's fart!

You are the second poster who seems to think we're talking a system like burning garbage in a pile in your back yard. Maybe as a people we Canadians just no longer have enough science in our education to get out of the 1950's.

Hello Bill

You seem very knowledgeable on this subject. Not like just a recent commentator, or latest flavour of the week. You have knowledge, which I just researched to double check and I verified your facts.

1) Are you in the industry?

1a) or are you with the city or something related like that.

[madmax]

Is there any truth to the Urban Myth that recycled products put in Blue Boxes end up in the landfill site mixed with the regular refuse?

Also, I recall back in the 80s, it was common for Televisions to be dumped into the landfill.

Where do they go today?

I read John Snobelin in the Toronto Sun, and he said that the Blue Box waste ends up in the same landfill, (article is about 1 week old), and that the program is costly. He also stated in his column that no government wants to do away with the Blue Box, because the public loves their blue boxes.

Any thoughts on these comments?

[madmax]

I'm a lefty, apparently,

Perhaps you will get vision in right eye in the future. But if only your left eye works, then you have pretty good vision EYEBALL.

and while I think conservation is paramount and the recycling of some things makes sense, I also think the whole Earth Day thing is a cop-out. I feel the same the way about Earth Day as some Christians feel about Xmas Day.

There is something being celebrated by government every day of the week. Earth Day received lots of publicity. And while I agree with your sentiment, I do cherish rememberance day. I find that people with the bumper stickers haven't a clue why they put one on or who the organization is that just pocketed the money for a ribbon.

I can see Earth Day, taking off, becoming commercialized, much like Christmas has in the last 100years. Christmas was about the Earth, Faith and a time to reflect upon ourselves. It is now Mass Consumption with worship attached as the tagline, although that has been removed in many stores to the point it is just about Consumption.

So can you see it, Earth Day, BUY OUR EARTH FRIENDLY CONSUMER GOODS. 2 for the Price of 1, 50% off on all store items after Earth Day ends.

Then you have EARTH DAY followed by RECYCLE (OH WAIT, ISN'T that what BOXING DAY was?) DAY.

Recycle all of your last earth day gifts to others, or come out this recycle day and receive 20% off all Earth Day Products.

So.... Lets see where we were.

Ah yes, Christmas. Jesus Christ, someone to worship and reflect about our place on Earth on a day associated with his birth.

1800s consumerism is already part and parcel to Dickens "A Christmas Carol".

Boxing Day, the Rich People would hand down their unwanted consumption (consumer goods) to the less fortuneate.

Anyone see this going around in circles?