Deaths of Aboriginal Children

[charter.rights]

These are not peaceful occupations. The Indians are getting increasingly violent and destructive. Protesting is good and legal. Holding a town virtually hostage is terrorism. I don't know why people take it from them. Just because a group doesn't agree with another, it doesn't give any group the right to hold another hostage. That is a criminal act. If the police won't intervene sooner or later the law abiding citizens will get sick of the law breakers and chaos will ensue.

Where do you get the idea that Natives are becoming "increasingly violent"? The media? The government propaganda perhaps?

At Caledonia the only violence that occurred initially was when the OPP raided the site and then taser old women and some children, clubbing others and threatening force with high powered rifles. Same thing at Ipperwash and with the RCMP at Gustafen Lake (the later 2 being racially motivated). Later in response to an intrusion by the OPP and the US Border Control / ATF some warriors stopped their unmarked vehicle and order them off the reserve. The OPP laid charges of assault and attempt murder but the charges were recently dismissed as unfounded. Other clashes have occurred as a result of Caledonians holding "Friday night rallys" where they drove golf balls at the natives or yelled racial epithets towards the occupiers. There would not have been any issues if not for Calendonians' attempts to stir up shit. (which a few are still trying to do.) Other than a few rogue natives who punched somebody in frustration, the event has been relatively peaceful, considering it has been on-going for 2 years.

As to other events in the news they too have been peaceful events. Erecting barricades across a road is not a violent act. It isn't "hostage" either.

Just because a group doesn't agree with another, it doesn't give any group the right to hold another hostage.

You haven't looked up the term "colour of right" have you?. If you did you would know that native do have the right to prohibit access to their lands, and to occupy and stop developmnet on lands they believe belong to them.

Edited April 18, 2008 by charter.rights

[AngusThermopyle]

"British Columbians need to know the investment that's made into this ministry and when it comes to aboriginal children, how poorly they've been looked after ... you know, as a chief, this could have been my grandchild. It could be any one of our children," said Betty Patrick, the band's chief. Members of the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs pointed to the fact 77 per cent of children in government care in northern B.C. are aboriginal, including most who died in custody in recent years."

Now this is confusing. What does this have to do with a story that talks about Garry McHale? You do realize that the link leads to that don't you?

[Wild Bill]

Within their communities they are talking responsibility for all kinds of things. However, they can't solve their problems while the government is still removing children from their homes and whisking them away to non-native foster homes. (more native children are in foster care today than all that went through the residential school system). They can't solve their water problems because the pollution comes from upstream where we have decided that it was the best place to locate our major industries. They can't solve their welfare problems because generally speaking the reserves don't have enough housing and therefore not enough workforce to sustain any of their own industries (save and except the ma and pop tobacco industry). They can't solve their food problems because we have polluted the land air and water and mercury, heavy metals and an abundance of chemicals have made it into their food chains.

There are all kinds of initiatives being used on reserve to solve problems. But government interference continues to impose colonialism on them instead of letting them find their own solutions. We profit off their land, yet deny them a cut in the profits. We continue to mine for things like uranium on their territories and leave the tailings for them to deal with. Hell, we even dump our garbage on their land because we don't want it in our cities or rural areas.

Then look at what has happened just in the last year with mining exploration, no consultation, education funding cuts, etc. We're still doing it to them. Just when they think they are getting ahaed, we pull the rug out from under them and manipulate their (read: the extension of our government) band governments by controlling their money, when in fact we owe them so much more monetarily than we could ever pay.

No, what we are doing is the same thing we have always been doing. We are imposing our colonialism - our ways and our thinking - on them against their will. That isn't democratic rule, it is tyranny and oppression. They can't participate unless they act like us.

Regardless, the tobacco industry as an example is a way for economic freedom. They are using profits to invest in more sustainable development, having been denied all their lives to capital and business opportunities because we seen them as non-people when they live on a reserve. And what is our response to the tobacco industry that once made cigarettes a multi-billion dollar a year business? We try to stop them. We raid their shops, steal their inventory and confiscate their vehicles. We label them as gangs so that the RCMP (and the OPP) can search without warrant, arrest them without cause and jail them until trial.

No. We are the problem. Leave them alone and let them prosper. Get off their land and pay them what they are owed in full. Do you think for a minute that if Six Nations had the $1 trillion we owe them in their trust that we would really be worse off for it? Where do you think they spend most of their money?

Now I'm totally confused. Maybe I'm missing something but I can't find a single thing in your answer that refers to simply not shooting kids!

I asked about taking responsibility for your own actions. I've never heard of a white man FORCING some FN gangbanger to shoot innocents!

What has being poor or resenting historical injustice got to do with choosing to fire random bullets in a driveby? Bullets that can and do strike your own people?

Somehow, I don't think I'm ever going to get a straight answer...

Edited April 18, 2008 by Wild Bill

[charter.rights]

These are not peaceful occupations. The Indians are getting increasingly violent and destructive. Protesting is good and legal. Holding a town virtually hostage is terrorism. I don't know why people take it from them. Just because a group doesn't agree with another, it doesn't give any group the right to hold another hostage. That is a criminal act. If the police won't intervene sooner or later the law abiding citizens will get sick of the law breakers and chaos will ensue.

Still you aren't addressing the issue. There is no hostage taking and things are not getting more violent. If anything it is actually getting more peaceful as people understand the issues and the frustration that comes with them.. The lands occupied are adjacent to the town and the reserve. People can come and go as they please.

Blocking a road is not a criminal act, either. Nor is proprietary estopple. It is a legal remedy to have the government live up to the law and our obligations under the agreements we made to share the lands.

Maybe educate yourself before you make any more comments. You are starting to dig yourself into a hole.

[charter.rights]

Now this is confusing. What does this have to do with a story that talks about Garry McHale? You do realize that the link leads to that don't you?

I corrected the link. I guess I had too many links open...

[myata]

I agree that encounter with Western culture is the prinicipal cause of problems in some native communities. I don't agree that it (Western culture) is ultimately to blame for it though. More precisely, in the context of present; all past abuses, which deliberatly purpose to diminish aboriginal culture, force it into certain ways, etc, should be condemned, acknowledged and properly compensated. But if outside of that, as we hopefully, are by now, there's an issue of interaction of cultures for which there's simply no easy fix.

Traditional societies are strongly hierarchical, where authority, often hereditory, propagates from the top, and does not leave much room for individual freedom, or dissent. That model works while individual has nowhere else to go. Our current reality is different, however. The TV shows that all authority can be contested and opposed; a short ride takes one to communities where authority of the chief means nothing; kids may have friends / "associates" from other communities; all this (and many many other simple facts of everyday life) erode the authority in such communities; and the people there haven't much else to rely on to order their lives; not because someone wants it; simply because they haven't been taught; haven't grown up into it.

There's no easy remedy for this situation, other than change. I.e adapt to the world around you that has changed. And embracing change is a serious problem in some native communities (and not only native, for sure). However there's little alternative; communities that admit new realities; promote education; cooperation; and so on (and there many of those), will survive and prosper; and those who'll stick to the status quo, and rather look for all and any reasons to put a blame on for their situation, will obviously get as much, ie status quo.

[charter.rights]

Now I'm totally confused. Maybe I'm missing something but I can't find a single thing in your answer that refers to simply not shooting kids!

I asked about taking responsibility for your own actions. I've never heard of a white man FORCING some FN gangbanger to shoot innocents!

What has being poor or resenting historical injustice got to do with choosing to fire random bullets in a driveby? Bullets that can and do strike your own people?

Somehow, I don't think I'm ever going to get a straight answer...

I've never heard of a white man FORCING some FN gangbanger to shoot innocents!

When the government keeps reserves in an impoverish apartheid state, then people start to take the "I don't give a shit" attitude about life. That would include gang related violence that is as prevalent in our large urban centres as it is on reserve - maybe even more so. The fact is that there are a number of factors which you don't seem to consider that create those low-income neighbour hoods and our societal attitudes - those same colonialist attitudes - are to blame for our failings in this country.

Somehow you don't want to listen to the straight answer as I suspected you are looking to bend it towards your own prejudices.

[White Doors]

wow. the talking points memo has covered off all of the grade 1 rhetorical comments I see.

Apartheid...

Facism..

Genocide...

I mean, you might as wel just post those three blockbusters in every response you give don't you think?

Talk about not taking responsibility.

there is a great Indian band out in BC that decided to do just that about 10 years ago. Now if all reserves were modeled like that then we wouldn't be here talking about it.

'Real Natives work for a living'

I'm sure you know which band I am talking about. All accomplished without having 'Information pickets' (lol) or pointing blame at anyone. They decided that they wanted a better life for their band members and went ahead and did it. The took responsibility for their own fate and chose not to leave their future in the hands of someone else.

I hope that philosophy spreads and your philosophy dies, not for my sake, but for Natives sakes.

Edited April 18, 2008 by White Doors

[charter.rights]

I agree that encounter with Western culture is the prinicipal cause of problems in some native communities. I don't agree that it (Western culture) is ultimately to blame for it though. More precisely, in the context of present; all past abuses, which deliberatly purpose to diminish aboriginal culture, force it into certain ways, etc, should be condemned, acknowledged and properly compensated. But if outside of that, as we hopefully, are by now, there's an issue of interaction of cultures for which there's simply no easy fix.

Traditional societies are strongly hierarchical, where authority, often hereditory, propagates from the top, and does not leave much room for individual freedom, or dissent. That model works while individual has nowhere else to go. Our current reality is different, however. The TV shows that all authority can be contested and opposed; a short ride takes one to communities where authority of the chief means nothing; kids may have friends / "associates" from other communities; all this (and many many other simple facts of everyday life) erode the authority in such communities; and the people there haven't much else to rely on to order their lives; not because someone wants it; simply because they haven't been taught; haven't grown up into it.

There's no easy remedy for this situation, other than change. I.e adapt to the world around you that has changed. And embracing change is a serious problem in some native communities (and not only native, for sure). However there's little alternative; communities that admit new realities; promote education; cooperation; and so on (and there many of those), will survive and prosper; and those who'll stick to the status quo, and rather look for all and any reasons to put a blame on for their situation, will obviously get as much, ie status quo.

But if outside of that, as we hopefully, are by now.....

We are not outside of it at all. In fact the government is bent on controlling First Nations more today than 20 years ago. First Nations accounting is over scrutinized (according to the auditor general) and accountability on under-funding is a constant problem. First Nations are typically funded at less than 10% that we are in our towns and cities. Natives are over-represented in our jails and in foster homes. The genocide is still taking place albeit the government tries to hide that fact by calling it a "program".

Natives are adapting and have always adapted. Progress is not possible because native people do not have access to capital to start businesses. Employment therefore comes from Band government "programs" or people must travel from their homes and families in order to find low-wage jobs. Education is key to building healthy communities for sure, but how can you get an education when you can't get loans and bursaries to get there? How can you get to a college or university when the secondary school system cannot teach them successfully? How can they finish high school when they have to quit to work and support their households? Poverty is an unending cycle. Many people are finding ways out of hit, but the government is often prone to try to keep them there.

For someone who has probably not ever experienced the type and depth of poverty that First Nation people have, it is pretty smug to sit in judgment and suggest simplistic ways of dealing with their predicament. What happens is that smugness leads to making "programs" that seek to "improve" natives by removing their culture and community from them. Like I said earlier, most natives want to be left alone to find their way out of this mess with their own identity intact. Unfortunately do-gooders are too quick to make suggestions that have no basis in reality, just because in their pious position, life has been handed to them through privilege.

[Who's Doing What?]

Blockades (or information pickets) raise awareness that there is a problem. Most of us wouldn't even have a clue that there were lands claims issues without formal protests taking place. How many of us would even know that our country and our churches stole 150,000 native children and buried half of them in unmarked graves. How many would have known that land that was never ceded to Canada has been used by us without compensation? Still, does anyone actually understand the extent of poverty occurring on many reserves? And do we really even care?

Blockades and reclamations work for them. And since we are still stealing their children and denying them prosperity, what would you do if you were in their shoes and couldn't use the courts to seek fair treatment?

MAybe if mom and dad could provide decent living conditions for a child then their children wouldn't have to be taken away and raised by the state. This is no different than anywhere else in the country but it seems to happen with much more frequency among natives. Perhaps some parenting and birth control classes would benifit them better than another handout.

[Wild Bill]

I've never heard of a white man FORCING some FN gangbanger to shoot innocents!

When the government keeps reserves in an impoverish apartheid state, then people start to take the "I don't give a shit" attitude about life. That would include gang related violence that is as prevalent in our large urban centres as it is on reserve - maybe even more so. The fact is that there are a number of factors which you don't seem to consider that create those low-income neighbour hoods and our societal attitudes - those same colonialist attitudes - are to blame for our failings in this country.

Somehow you don't want to listen to the straight answer as I suspected you are looking to bend it towards your own prejudices.

Actually, I agree with you! We all have our own prejudices.

There is an old story about a pair of identical twins. Their father was a violent, abusive drunkard. One twin grew up to be exactly like his father. When asked why, he replied "With a father like mine, what would you expect?"

The other twin grew up to be a model citizen. He had a good and steady job, providing for a loving family with some beautiful kids. When asked why he turned out the way he had, after coming from such a dysfunctional family he stated "With a father like mine, what would you expect?"

We usually don't have any choice about the cards Life deals to us. We do however have total control over how we choose to play them.

I have my perspective and yours is quite clear...

[myata]

But if outside of that, as we hopefully, are by now.....

We are not outside of it at all. In fact the government is bent on controlling First Nations more today than 20 years ago. First Nations accounting is over scrutinized (according to the auditor general) and accountability on under-funding is a constant problem. First Nations are typically funded at less than 10% that we are in our towns and cities.

Please clarify: do you mean 10% of federal/provincial transfers to municipalities, or total overall funding? Did you remember to adjust your calculation per capita of population (given that aboriginal population is less than 10%)?

Then there's a question of taxes (which you never answered). Federal and provincial transfers, plus municipal taxes are paid by taxpayers. It's not the government that "funds" us, no! We give our money to the government so that it can redistribute (some of) it (hopefully!) where it's most needed. So if there's a community that does not pay any taxes (in a meaningful way), you can't really compare its funding (which is, really, a handout) to the transfers to tax paying communities (which is really redistribution of their moneys).

Natives are over-represented in our jails and in foster homes. The genocide is still taking place albeit the government tries to hide that fact by calling it a "program".

Yes that's a tragic state of affairs. Caused not in the least by the erosion of traditional power structure and values, without replacing them with the new ones. Tragic but genocide has nothing to do with it. Turn your sight to the communities that develop and prosper. If you're stuck in the past, incapable, or unwilling, to learn and adapt, you have only yourself to blame.

Natives are adapting and have always adapted. Progress is not possible because native people do not have access to capital to start businesses.

.....

etc

I hear more reasons why things can't be done. Yet they can and they're done every single day by many - people arriving to this country with little more capital than their luggage. So many of them come to build businesses, find meaningful jobs, contribute to the wealth of the country; what is it they have that's missing from your picture?

For someone who has probably not ever experienced the type and depth of poverty that First Nation people have, it is pretty smug to sit in judgment and suggest simplistic ways of dealing with their predicament.

No I'm not smug; I'm reading papers and watching news (e.g CBC French has been running a series on this very subject). The poverty and depth of desperation is indeed appauling.

However, I'm deeply sceptical about possibilities of meaningful help (other than basic subsistence help, which is exactly what's going on), to somebody who isn't willing to help themselves. In particular, this strategy when you're asking for help from one end of the mouth, while instantly condemning it as insufficient, inadequite, or even wile, from another, doesn't make any sense to me. OK how about for a change you share with us your vision as to in what meaningful ways those struggling communities can be helped?

[charter.rights]

Please clarify: do you mean 10% of federal/provincial transfers to municipalities, or total overall funding? Did you remember to adjust your calculation per capita of population (given that aboriginal population is less than 10%)?

Then there's a question of taxes (which you never answered). Federal and provincial transfers, plus municipal taxes are paid by taxpayers. It's not the government that "funds" us, no! We give our money to the government so that it can redistribute (some of) it (hopefully!) where it's most needed. So if there's a community that does not pay any taxes (in a meaningful way), you can't really compare its funding (which is, really, a handout) to the transfers to tax paying communities (which is really redistribution of their moneys).

Yes that's a tragic state of affairs. Caused not in the least by the erosion of traditional power structure and values, without replacing them with the new ones. Tragic but genocide has nothing to do with it. Turn your sight to the communities that develop and prosper. If you're stuck in the past, incapable, or unwilling, to learn and adapt, you have only yourself to blame.

I hear more reasons why things can't be done. Yet they can and they're done every single day by many - people arriving to this country with little more capital than their luggage. So many of them come to build businesses, find meaningful jobs, contribute to the wealth of the country; what is it they have that's missing from your picture?

No I'm not smug; I'm reading papers and watching news (e.g CBC French has been running a series on this very subject). The poverty and depth of desperation is indeed appauling.

However, I'm deeply sceptical about possibilities of meaningful help (other than basic subsistence help, which is exactly what's going on), to somebody who isn't willing to help themselves. In particular, this strategy when you're asking for help from one end of the mouth, while instantly condemning it as insufficient, inadequite, or even wile, from another, doesn't make any sense to me. OK how about for a change you share with us your vision as to in what meaningful ways those struggling communities can be helped?

Taxes? I've answered it before.

1. First Nations generally receive only about $1600 per person per capita in funding. The average small town receives about $16,000 per person per capita.

2. Grand River Enterprises submitted over $120,000 million in federal excise taxes last year. Six Nations of the Grand River only received about $36 million back.

3. The majority of First Nations people live in urban centres and contribute income sales and property taxes just like the rest of us. Although the numbers aren't available it is likely that First Nations people off-reserve wholly support First Nations people on-reserve through their tax contributions.

4. Six Nations of the Grand is owed over $1 trillion dollars in a trust we hold on their behalf. The interest alone on that trust using INAC compounded interest rates is over $3 billion per year.

5. INAC's budget is about $8 billion per year and salaries and other programs that never reach First Nation communities use up $5 billion. If you do the math the three billion that actually does reach First Nation Band Councils pretty much equals the interest Six Nation is owed on their trust. That means that Six Nations is essentially funding all First Nations.

6. Natives do not receive education money. There is a lottery system, just like bursaries are awarded in the mainstream and only a few of the many on the wating list get to go to post secondary school.

7. Health programs are underfunded by as much as 80% despite Firs Nations communities having the highest percentage of health problems in Canada.

8. First Nation people are in jail primarily because they can't pay fines that ordinary Canadians get convicted with. The majority of FN prisoners are for minor crimes.

9. There are approximately 27,000 native children in foster care. Child services on reserve are underfunded by as much as 80% also despite child welfare being a greater issue than in any Canadian city.

10. Native people do not have the same access to capital for business. Because they cannot own their property (banned by the Indian Act) all land is held in common by the Band. Banks will not freely mortgage new house construction without underwriting by the Band which must maintain 100% of their liabilities in real money accounts. That means that any housing money they get doesn't build houses for those that need it and gets tied up for as long as the housing loans terms.

11. Business loans are next to impossible to get because a native's income isn't considered income, and therefore they have no credit rating. Banks will not lend to anyone with poor or no credit.

So you see there are lots of problems that don't stem from the First Nations' people themselves - things they have no control over.

[myata]

Gee, you're a master of avoidance... OK, one more time: do status aboriginals pay income tax, like the rest of us?? FYI I do not receive "funding"; I get services for which I pay with my taxes; if somebody pays no taxes, surely it's only fair that their free "funding" is less than my fully paid services, no? Because those moneys, saved from paying taxes, they could go quite a way if invested into community; education; etc.

When you answer this, we can go on to address other issues you raised?

And for the record, you believe that sending more (lot more) handout will solve all problems of those communities? How, if not a secret?

[charter.rights]

Gee, you're a master of avoidance... OK, one more time: do status aboriginals pay income tax, like the rest of us?? FYI I do not receive "funding"; I get services for which I pay with my taxes; if somebody pays no taxes, surely it's only fair that their free "funding" is less than my fully paid services, no? Because those moneys, saved from paying taxes, they could go quite a way if invested into community; education; etc.

When you answer this, we can go on to address other issues you raised?

And for the record, you believe that sending more (lot more) handout will solve all problems of those communities? How, if not a secret?

OK, one more time: do status aboriginals pay income tax, like the rest of us??

Yes. 80% of status natives live off reserve and pay income tax, sales taxes and property taxes just like the rest of us. The 20% who live on reserve work income is not considered "income" and therefore not taxable. However, the unemployment rate on reserve can be as high as 60% and those that do work earn so little the even if they were required to pay tax, they would still be in the poverty bracket of the tax scale.

The taxes we pay do not directly fund our services. They are "transferred" in the system, some to bolster have-not provinces and others to fund services that should otherwise be user-pay. The government has income sources that don't involve a tax base, including royalties paid on natural resources, investment of things like CPP and even EI, which is drawn from our paychecks as an insurance and not a tax. It also receives billions in excise taxes etc.

Funding First Nations at the same rate as other communities is an imperative step in their recovery. How can you heal a cut when you can't supply a band aid? That would be the first step in healing. Once all of the poverty driven problems - those that the government is directly responsible for - then they can at least start working on solutions like economic development, sustainable resource management etc. However, while they are focused on poor wealth, undrinkable water, poor education and poor social services many First Nations become distracted with the dispair of poverty, and most give up. If we really want them to succeed then we have to offer sincere and honest driven hope.

Lastly I don't give in to threats or conditions, so if you want to discuss this in a calm and informative manner, I'll be glad to engage you. However, if you continue with a pious stance, this will be the last sentence.

[Melanie_]

Wrong. It is the result of community wide familial dysfunction caused by genocide and residential schools.

And if you are really interested in the children (and not just finger pointing at natives) then perhaps you will join the growing number of people demanding that the government and the churches come clean with the locations of more than 50,000 native children's graves that never survived the residential schools....

I'm interested in the protection of living children. Culture and race are irrelevent if a child is in danger. I agree, there is much to answer for regarding residential school abuses, but looking backwards does nothing to help the kids living with abuse today. I really don't care if a child is white, aboriginal, black, asian, or whatever. The first priority has to be safety, not race or culture.

[charter.rights]

I'm interested in the protection of living children. Culture and race are irrelevent if a child is in danger. I agree, there is much to answer for regarding residential school abuses, but looking backwards does nothing to help the kids living with abuse today. I really don't care if a child is white, aboriginal, black, asian, or whatever. The first priority has to be safety, not race or culture.

Looking backwards is imperative to understanding the problem and predicting the future behavior of the government. In spite of 150 years of oppression and genocide the government is still doing what it has always done. What I'd like to know is if anyone knows a time or place that the government has said that it is stopping its assimilation policies? Gawd, they won't even apologize for the past atrocities. Perhaps it is because they don't believe they were wrong.

127,000 children were forcibly removed from their homes during the residential schools. 50,000 or more of them were buried in unmarked graves and never return to their homes. The government knew that nearly 50% were dieing but continued anyway believing that the residential school's benefits outweighed the high death rate. Yet, today - this moment in time - 27,000 native children are in foster care, most of them forcibly removed from their communities with the support of the RCMP. The government refuses to intervene and refuses to fund the native child services, preferring instead to remove children without also offering assistance to the families in need. Nearly 70% of those children are being removed with the only reason stated as "poverty".

When will the genocide end? When will Canadians stand up and protect children who have become the targets of the state and are being used as hostages to get their communities to assimilate and submit to the Canadian power system? If you care so much, then perhaps you would tell us what you have done to prevent this despicable theft of young minds?

Edited April 19, 2008 by charter.rights

[Melanie_]

First off, I have never denied the atrocities of the residential schools. I agree, there were horrible abuses; children were scooped up from their homes and families and forced to change their language, culture and way of life. They were subjected to physical, sexual, and emotional abuses, which continue to impact their lives as parents and grandparents. Children were also taken from their homes and adopted by families who tried to eradicate their culture and heritage, pretending they were the same as everyone else. I recognize there were injustices that continue to impact aboriginal communities today.

What you need to recognize is that the injustices, indignities, atrocities these people suffered doesn't give them the right to subject their children to the same treatment. No matter what happened to any one individual, and I know they suffered, they can't just continue these patterns. You are saying that we should just turn a blind eye to children's suffering, because we caused their parents' suffering - I reject this arguement absolutely.

Yes, this could be interpreted as continuing the patriarchal attitude that started the problems in the first place, and I have no solution for this. But children are children first, regardless of their culture. You are advocating for disposable children in favour of giving communities time to figure out what to do, and I can't justify that at all.

[Who's Doing What?]

While you organize your violent protests, young children are getting shot on reserves. It is as if your house is burning down and you are outside arguing with your neighbour about where the fence should be.

A++++++ Post August. Hit the nail on the head and drove it straight through the board!

[Who's Doing What?]

Taxes? I've answered it before.

1. First Nations generally receive only about $1600 per person per capita in funding. The average small town receives about $16,000 per person per capita.

And if you added in a property tax, and a percentage of the Provincial Sales Tax, that each individual would have paid, and a percentage of the percentage of Federal Taxes that would have been transfered to the Provinces to be transferred to municipalities.

I don't know if you charge property tax on a res, but somehow I doubt it. A VERY, I mean ultra, conservative estimate on my municipality's property tax alone would mean $1500 per person. But even if is only $500 per person that goes along way improving the community.

But at anyrate the bottom line is that money-wise, Natives may recieve less but they contribute NOTHING.

2. Grand River Enterprises submitted over $120,000 million in federal excise taxes last year. Six Nations of the Grand River only received about $36 million back.

Change accountants.

3. The majority of First Nations people live in urban centres and contribute income sales and property taxes just like the rest of us. Although the numbers aren't available it is likely that First Nations people off-reserve wholly support First Nations people on-reserve through their tax contributions.

NO!

The taxes those people pay are used to keep their communtiy decent, our Govt. functioning, etc.. Only a small portion, equal to any other Canadian's, would go to the reserve. What backwards thinking, that if all the taxes paid by off-res Natives, 100% of it were go to support Res natives and none to go to keeping their community and there jobs and everything else they enjoy being part of our society, it would be enough to change the quality of life for res natives?!?!

4. Six Nations of the Grand is owed over $1 trillion dollars in a trust we hold on their behalf. The interest alone on that trust using INAC compounded interest rates is over $3 billion per year.

You keep saying this and none of us really care. I would like to actually see the math that proves that. Plus the documentation of the original agreement, plus when the Canadian Govt. starting sending the SN money and how much they have sent.

5. INAC's budget is about $8 billion per year and salaries and other programs that never reach First Nation communities use up $5 billion. If you do the math the three billion that actually does reach First Nation Band Councils pretty much equals the interest Six Nation is owed on their trust. That means that Six Nations is essentially funding all First Nations.

And I bet if someone else were to do the math they would find that alot more money is actually being made available to natives. You know like through the cost of education, healthcare, and bursuries for busnesses and post-seconadary education.

6. Natives do not receive education money. There is a lottery system, just like bursaries are awarded in the mainstream and only a few of the many on the wating list get to go to post secondary school.

There is a lot more money set aside per-capita to give a native a free education than there is for any non-native.

7. Health programs are underfunded by as much as 80% despite Firs Nations communities having the highest percentage of health problems in Canada.

So your healthcare is pretty much in the same boat as everyone elses. Sounds like they are taking full advantage of what healthcare they do recieve, what with the highest percentage of illness. OR maybe on the res they have so much time on their hands they can just make it more often.

8. First Nation people are in jail primarily because they can't pay fines that ordinary Canadians get convicted with. The majority of FN prisoners are for minor crimes.

SO because they choose not to work, and have no money, we are to feel sorry for them when we would face the same penalty if we did not pay our own fines?

9. There are approximately 27,000 native children in foster care. Child services on reserve are underfunded by as much as 80% also despite child welfare being a greater issue than in any Canadian city.

They are underfunded simply because the demand is rediculous. IF the natives can start taking care of their children and provide a decent living environment then the demand would decrease and current funding would be adequate.

10. Native people do not have the same access to capital for business. Because they cannot own their property (banned by the Indian Act) all land is held in common by the Band. Banks will not freely mortgage new house construction without underwriting by the Band which must maintain 100% of their liabilities in real money accounts. That means that any housing money they get doesn't build houses for those that need it and gets tied up for as long as the housing loans terms.

Ya it is a lot easier to get things like loans and mortgages WHEN YOU HAVE A JOB!

11. Business loans are next to impossible to get because a native's income isn't considered income, and therefore they have no credit rating. Banks will not lend to anyone with poor or no credit.

I bet if I were native and I wanted to start a company, if I had a well thought out business plan I could get money out of the Govt. in less than 90 days. Heck there is money there for ANYONE if they have their sh!t together.

So you see there are lots of problems that don't stem from the First Nations' people themselves - things they have no control over.

Sounds like if they became part of society most of their problems would disappear. Edited April 19, 2008 by Who's Doing What?

[August1991]

At Caledonia the only violence that occurred initially was when the OPP raided the site and then taser old women and some children, clubbing others and threatening force with high powered rifles. Same thing at Ipperwash and with the RCMP at Gustafen Lake (the later 2 being racially motivated).

C.R, I'm sorry if I give the impression that we are jumping on you, but what does Caledonia or Ipperwash have to do with babies freezing to death or being shot in western Canada?

We have many threads on Indian Affairs. I started this thread because I wondered about aboriginal kids. Why do they die? Instead of answering this question, you go off on tangents about Caledonia and Ipperwash.

Two young kids froze to death in Saskatchewan in January because their Dad was high, and you talk of Gustafen Lake.

Edited April 19, 2008 by August1991

[charter.rights]

C.R, I'm sorry if I give the impression that we are jumping on you, but what does Caledonia or Ipperwash have to do with babies freezing to death or being shot in western Canada?

We have many threads on Indian Affairs. I started this thread because I wondered about aboriginal kids. Why do they die? Instead of answering this question, you go off on tangents about Caledonia and Ipperwash.

Two young kids froze to death in Saskatchewan in January because their Dad was high, and you talk of Gustafen Lake.

These are examples of the propaganda campaign that paint Native protesters as "violent" and "out of control". They are examples of the deliberate attempt by government and media to demonize people who stand up to government over the theft of their lands.

I said earlier, that native children die (just like non-native children) to unfortunate circumstances. It does not mean that natives are poor parents, or that communities are failures as many would have you believe here. These are communities in crisis chock full multi generational residential school legacy psychosis and extreme poverty. While a Caucasian father who shoots his 3 children hardly gets a mention here, when a native father has an accident and his two children die an equably horrible death, the racists here pounce all over it as another example of why we should condemn the natives and force them into our mold of society.

Does anyone even know about the non-native father that intentionally ran over his native wife with his pick-up truck while his two children were watching. It happened in Saskatchewan last fall and barely even made the news. The police investigated, took a statement from the husband who said it was accidental and close the case the same day, despite there being 3 eye witnesses that saw him not only run over her, but back the truck and run over her two more times! The family did their own investigation, since the husband had a restraining order against him he shouldn't have been within a mile of her or her children. At their request of the family the police re-opened the case and within a week closed it again, still without interviewing the eye witnesses. So where is the outrage at that? The children were old enough to understand what was happening and the oldest one was heard to plead with her father not to hurt her mommy! Where's the outrage. Where's the discussion on how non-native males are sometimes racist pigs? Where's the media and demands for child and spousal protection?

It isn't news of course, because it was just another native woman - one of hundreds killed without investigation in Canada in the last decade. Her children deserve no better because, well their daddy is white and has the "privilege" afforded him by a predominantly white male society and is protect by that same predominantly white male police force in a p[province that is plagued with racism and indignant treatment of native people. However, I do realize how this is falling on deaf ears and how the closet racist will pop their heads out of their asses and yell "but, but, but....". If we just raise the issue to someone that cares, then we have one more person who will fight those in power and demand equal treatment under the law and equal opportunities to native people without all kinds of attachments that demand they be like us. Truth hurts - especially those who hide it to advance their genocidal agenda.

Where is the outrage!

[charter.rights]

What you need to recognize is that the injustices, indignities, atrocities these people suffered doesn't give them the right to subject their children to the same treatment. No matter what happened to any one individual, and I know they suffered, they can't just continue these patterns. You are saying that we should just turn a blind eye to children's suffering, because we caused their parents' suffering - I reject this arguement absolutely.

Yes, this could be interpreted as continuing the patriarchal attitude that started the problems in the first place, and I have no solution for this. But children are children first, regardless of their culture. You are advocating for disposable children in favour of giving communities time to figure out what to do, and I can't justify that at all.

What you need to recognize is that taking children out of a poor situation without the support systems properly funded to effect change in the parents poor behaviors solves nothing. While it may take the children temporarily out of the way of harm through neglect, it simply perpetuates the illness of colonialism. The trauma of being removed from their families and their communties is sometimes just as harmful as leaving them there, since children of substance abusers often grow up to be abusers themselves, regardless if they have been put in foster care. In fact once removed, many native children end up in the justice system, behind bars as that other statistic.

What we should be doing is offering them the space and education to deal with the issues in their own communities. Instead the government deliberately under-funds the social services on reserve and instead boost the funding of urban centres to deal with removal of children.

[DangerMouse]

These are examples of the propaganda campaign that paint Native protesters as "violent" and "out of control". They are examples of the deliberate attempt by government and media to demonize people who stand up to government over the theft of their lands...Does anyone even know about the non-native father that intentionally ran over his native wife with his pick-up truck while his two children were watching. It happened in Saskatchewan last fall and barely even made the news. The police investigated, took a statement from the husband who said it was accidental and close ... The family did their own investigation, since the husband had a restraining order against him he shouldn't have been within a mile of her or her children. At their request of the family the police re-opened the case and within a week closed it again, still without interviewing the eye witnesses. So where is the outrage at that? The children were old enough to understand what was happening and the oldest one was heard to plead with her father not to hurt her mommy! Where's the outrage. Where's the discussion on how non-native males are sometimes racist pigs? Where's the media and demands for child and spousal protection?...It isn't news of course, because it was just another native woman - one of hundreds killed without investigation in Canada in the last decade. .., then we have one more person who will fight those in power and demand equal treatment under the law and equal opportunities to native people without all kinds of attachments that demand they be like us. Truth hurts - especially those who hide it to advance their genocidal agenda.

Where is the outrage!

This is so true Charter! But the sad thing about it, is there are lots of decent non-native people in our society. There are whites out there that'll use that as a big front and commit horrendous acts. And they'll get a way with it because of their skin color. What we hear about is probably just the tip of the iceberg. I know scores of unsolved cases closed probably closed just to protect some redneck arses arse. The "Highway of Tears" along HWY 16 in BC is another example. There are probably people in all these communities who know exactly who it is but are engaged in a "Conspiracy of Silence."

The media is so full of crap that the only time I pick up a paper is when someone leaves it in the restaurant as a stray paper. I'II read the horoscopes Quiet a few years ago in some small town in BC, the newspaper reported this incident about a non-native guy beaten so badly that he was crippled. He was apparently beaten by 4 natives. The only problem? It was the other way around, where 4 rednecks kicked the crap out of a native guy almost killing him and crippling him. The paper decided to report it making the natives look bad (in other words, outright lie and make the indians look badly). And you'd never believe it, this was right when Gustafsen Lake was happening? Of course, the cops did nothing about it....

[Who's Doing What?]

The media is so full of crap that the only time I pick up a paper is when someone leaves it in the restaurant as a stray paper. I'II read the horoscopes Quiet a few years ago in some small town in BC, the newspaper reported this incident about a non-native guy beaten so badly that he was crippled. He was apparently beaten by 4 natives. The only problem? It was the other way around, where 4 rednecks kicked the crap out of a native guy almost killing him and crippling him. The paper decided to report it making the natives look bad (in other words, outright lie and make the indians look badly). And you'd never believe it, this was right when Gustafsen Lake was happening? Of course, the cops did nothing about it....

Atleast name the town for f*$% sake's. Or maybe the paper. Or the year. Otherwise your post is worthless.