Deaths of Aboriginal Children

[August1991]

In the past few months, several aboriginal children have suffered tragic death or critical injuries. A recent report concerns deaths over several years. These events occurred in three different provinces.

The mother of a little girl wounded in a drive-by shooting at the Samson First Nation is pleading with band leaders and police to do more to stop the violence plaguing her reserve.

"Stop it!" was Candace Saddleback's tearful message during a news conference Wednesday afternoon outside an Edmonton hospital where her daughter Asia is recovering from critical injuries.

"I've been living there all my life and I'm so sorry that it took my daughter … for people to understand that its a bad crisis in Hobbema."

The stray bullet that wounded Asia Saddleback, 23 months, tore through the wall of her house, hitting her in the liver and spine as she ate Sunday dinner with her family.

CBC

A Saskatchewan First Nation reeling from the deaths of a baby and her three-year-old sister, who were left outside in the bitter cold, was trying to declare itself a dry community, the reserve's chief said Thursday.

The Yellow Quill First Nation reserve is struggling to come to terms with the deaths of Kaydance and Santana Pauchay after their frozen bodies, dressed only in T-shirts and undergarments, were discovered in the snow a day apart.

CBC

The report reviewed the lives and deaths of four-year-old Amanda Simpson of Prince George; three-year-old Savannah Hall of Prince George; 14-month-old Rowen Von Niederhausern of Terrace; and seven-month-old Serena Wiebe of Fort St. James.

Three of the four children were aboriginal, and all had a family history of involvement with the child welfare system at the time of their deaths.

Coroner's juries ruled last year that Amanda and Savannah's deaths were homicides, Rowen's was accidental, possibly due to shaking; and Serena's death was classified undetermined, possibly due to unsafe sleep practices.

CanWest

[i note that the CBC report of these last cases didn't identify them as aboriginal.]

----

I don't think more money is the solution. The federal government already transfers almost $10 billion to the 1 million of so registered Indians in Canada. That amounts to almost $10,000 each. I don't think Indians need more social workers or counsellors. The strategy of receiving more transfers from white people doesn't work. Anger directed at white people doesn't accomplish anything either. Obtaining compensation for mistreatment in residential schools isn't going to stop young children from dying or being injured in drive-by shootings.

There are poorer communities elsewhere in Canada with access to fewer social services than are available on reserves but these kinds of sad events don't occur with the same frequency.

I know that the Conservative government aims to make Indians on reserves more responsible for their own actions. For example, there is pending legislation to make it possible for Indians to own their own house on reserves. Maybe this will work.

Somebody must start thinking outside the box. I fear that this kind of sad violence will just worsen.

[WCN]

I think the problems more or less have to do with the culture that has developed among the native reserves in this country. This includes drugs, crime, and no respect or caring amongst each other on the reserves. I see some of these people are in their prime of their life and yet already have dozens of convictions! I also question the parental involvment with a lot of the kids, it seems that they don't have any role models or aren't shown any discipline in their lives (Its like the parents don't care about their children).

[Melanie_]

With the recent capture of Alan Schoenborn (not convicted of anything just yet), it’s important to recognize that parental dysfunction isn’t limited to aboriginals. And we need to recognize that there are countless loving and capable aboriginal parents. But there certainly have been a number of high profile deaths of aboriginal children here in Manitoba lately. I’ve talked about Gage Guimond in another thread, a little boy who was placed in a loving and stable foster home when he was an infant, but was removed from it because the family wasn’t aboriginal. He was given to some distant relatives he didn’t even know, and was killed just before his second birthday.

The case has raised questions about the safety of Manitoba's child welfare system, and the philosophy of native-run care agencies to place children with family members whenever possible.

"Whose interests are we serving here? Did we serve the best interests of the agencies, or did we serve the best interests of the child?" asked Conservative family services critic Mavis Tallieu.

"I think that's evident, that we didn't serve the best interests of Gage Guimond."

Manitoba has recently changed the policy of keeping children in their communities and within their culture regardless of whether or not other options are available, and instead has decided that the good of the child comes first. I’m cautiously optimistic about this change; it is a step in the right direction.

[charter.rights]

deleted

Edited April 18, 2008 by charter.rights

[charter.rights]

I think the problems more or less have to do with the culture that has developed among the native reserves in this country. This includes drugs, crime, and no respect or caring amongst each other on the reserves. I see some of these people are in their prime of their life and yet already have dozens of convictions! I also question the parental involvment with a lot of the kids, it seems that they don't have any role models or aren't shown any discipline in their lives (Its like the parents don't care about their children).

Wrong. It is the result of community wide familial dysfunction caused by genocide and residential schools.

And if you are really interested in the children (and not just finger pointing at natives) then perhaps you will join the growing number of people demanding that the government and the churches come clean with the locations of more than 50,000 native children's graves that never survived the residential schools....

Canada's Holocaust

Of course the survivors were subjected to rape, molestation, physical and psychological abuses and complete detachment from parental modeling that has passed as a legacy through countless generations. What we are actually seeing is the result of colonialism imposed on people against their will. We also find the same kinds of dysfunction occurring in many other colonized countries where aboriginal children were treated with the same kinds of abuses designed to improve them....

[WCN]

And if you are really interested in the children (and not just finger pointing at natives) then perhaps you will join the growing number of people demanding that the government and the churches come clean with the locations of more than 50,000 native children's graves that never survived the residential schools....

I would like to see the government get to bottom of it but even if they do what effect will it have on the situation right now? It will take more than that to solve the problems.

[August1991]

Wrong. It is the result of community wide familial dysfunction caused by genocide and residential schools.

European Jews suffered a horrific genocide and there are few Jews around the world who were not touched in some way by the Shoah. Jewish families didn't merely become dysfunctional - many disappeared. Yet, this experience has not lead to violence, gangs and drugs among Jews.

In any case, I don't think it's productive to dwell on blaming other people for one's own misfortunes. Life is simply too short to be wasted in that manner.

----

To return to the OP, young children should not freeze to death in the snow and they should not be critically shot while eating a meal at home. These events are all too common. I fear that the current "progressive" ideas to offer counselling and pay compensation for past sins will amount to the same result as the past "progressive" idea of putting natives in residential schools. IOW, it seems to me that natives have to solve these problems on their own.

[Who's Doing What?]

Wrong. It is the result of community wide familial dysfunction caused by genocide and residential schools.

And if you are really interested in the children (and not just finger pointing at natives) then perhaps you will join the growing number of people demanding that the government and the churches come clean with the locations of more than 50,000 native children's graves that never survived the residential schools....

Canada's Holocaust

Of course the survivors were subjected to rape, molestation, physical and psychological abuses and complete detachment from parental modeling that has passed as a legacy through countless generations. What we are actually seeing is the result of colonialism imposed on people against their will. We also find the same kinds of dysfunction occurring in many other colonized countries where aboriginal children were treated with the same kinds of abuses designed to improve them....

That is such BS!!!!!

I don't see the children of holocaust survivors throwing their children out in the snow with only a tee shirt and underwear.

[charter.rights]

European Jews suffered a horrific genocide and there are few Jews around the world who were not touched in some way by the Shoah. Jewish families didn't merely become dysfunctional - many disappeared. Yet, this experience has not lead to violence, gangs and drugs among Jews.

In any case, I don't think it's productive to dwell on blaming other people for one's own misfortunes. Life is simply too short to be wasted in that manner.

----

To return to the OP, young children should not freeze to death in the snow and they should not be critically shot while eating a meal at home. These events are all too common. I fear that the current "progressive" ideas to offer counselling and pay compensation for past sins will amount to the same result as the past "progressive" idea of putting natives in residential schools. IOW, it seems to me that natives have to solve these problems on their own.

Seems native people want to be left alone too. but the government cannot stay out of their business. There are traditional healing programs, and traditional justice programs that have proven successful. However, every time there is a successful model, the government interferes and destroys it with their program modifications and legal opinions.

There is still a belief among the government and Canadians in general that unless native people look and act like us, they are worthless human beings. A wound will never heal if you keep picking at it.

And in the words of Redjacket 1811, “Brother! – If you wish us well then keep away; don’t disturb us.” In 200 years we still haven't gotten right.

[charter.rights]

That is such BS!!!!!

I don't see the children of holocaust survivors throwing their children out in the snow with only a tee shirt and underwear.

The surviving Jews weren't subjected to colonialism. That is the difference.

Edited April 18, 2008 by charter.rights

[Wild Bill]

The surviving Jews weren't subjected to colonialism. That is the difference.

Tell me, in the culture you seem to espouse, does anyone take any responsibility themselves for ANYTHING?

Frankly, after reading your posts it would seem natives are totally blameless for anything that happens and white folks are responsible for everything bad, up to and including earthquakes and hurricanes.

It seems to me that YOU are the one who substitutes fingerpointing for actually recognizing a problem and doing something constructive to fix it!

[charter.rights]

Tell me, in the culture you seem to espouse, does anyone take any responsibility themselves for ANYTHING?

Frankly, after reading your posts it would seem natives are totally blameless for anything that happens and white folks are responsible for everything bad, up to and including earthquakes and hurricanes.

It seems to me that YOU are the one who substitutes fingerpointing for actually recognizing a problem and doing something constructive to fix it!

Within their communities they are talking responsibility for all kinds of things. However, they can't solve their problems while the government is still removing children from their homes and whisking them away to non-native foster homes. (more native children are in foster care today than all that went through the residential school system). They can't solve their water problems because the pollution comes from upstream where we have decided that it was the best place to locate our major industries. They can't solve their welfare problems because generally speaking the reserves don't have enough housing and therefore not enough workforce to sustain any of their own industries (save and except the ma and pop tobacco industry). They can't solve their food problems because we have polluted the land air and water and mercury, heavy metals and an abundance of chemicals have made it into their food chains.

There are all kinds of initiatives being used on reserve to solve problems. But government interference continues to impose colonialism on them instead of letting them find their own solutions. We profit off their land, yet deny them a cut in the profits. We continue to mine for things like uranium on their territories and leave the tailings for them to deal with. Hell, we even dump our garbage on their land because we don't want it in our cities or rural areas.

Then look at what has happened just in the last year with mining exploration, no consultation, education funding cuts, etc. We're still doing it to them. Just when they think they are getting ahaed, we pull the rug out from under them and manipulate their (read: the extension of our government) band governments by controlling their money, when in fact we owe them so much more monetarily than we could ever pay.

No, what we are doing is the same thing we have always been doing. We are imposing our colonialism - our ways and our thinking - on them against their will. That isn't democratic rule, it is tyranny and oppression. They can't participate unless they act like us.

Regardless, the tobacco industry as an example is a way for economic freedom. They are using profits to invest in more sustainable development, having been denied all their lives to capital and business opportunities because we seen them as non-people when they live on a reserve. And what is our response to the tobacco industry that once made cigarettes a multi-billion dollar a year business? We try to stop them. We raid their shops, steal their inventory and confiscate their vehicles. We label them as gangs so that the RCMP (and the OPP) can search without warrant, arrest them without cause and jail them until trial.

No. We are the problem. Leave them alone and let them prosper. Get off their land and pay them what they are owed in full. Do you think for a minute that if Six Nations had the $1 trillion we owe them in their trust that we would really be worse off for it? Where do you think they spend most of their money?

[Qwerty]

That really is sad to see children die. Conditions need to improve on reserves for sure but having multiple blockades isn't helping them win any favour with the public so don't expect it anytime soon.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Qwerty

[charter.rights]

That really is sad to see children die. Conditions need to improve on reserves for sure but having multiple blockades isn't helping them win any favour with the public so don't expect it anytime soon.

Blockades (or information pickets) raise awareness that there is a problem. Most of us wouldn't even have a clue that there were lands claims issues without formal protests taking place. How many of us would even know that our country and our churches stole 150,000 native children and buried half of them in unmarked graves. How many would have known that land that was never ceded to Canada has been used by us without compensation? Still, does anyone actually understand the extent of poverty occurring on many reserves? And do we really even care?

Blockades and reclamations work for them. And since we are still stealing their children and denying them prosperity, what would you do if you were in their shoes and couldn't use the courts to seek fair treatment?

[White Doors]

information pickets

LOL!!

nice! That spin is worthy of jdobbin!

[charter.rights]

"British Columbians need to know the investment that's made into this ministry and when it comes to aboriginal children, how poorly they've been looked after ... you know, as a chief, this could have been my grandchild. It could be any one of our children," said Betty Patrick, the band's chief. Members of the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs pointed to the fact 77 per cent of children in government care in northern B.C. are aboriginal, including most who died in custody in recent years." Edited April 18, 2008 by charter.rights

[Topaz]

I saw Paul Martin and Ralph Goodale before the senate talking about the fact that First Nation children don`t get the education that the rest of the country gets and that if the Kelowna Accord was put into action this would have help to end this but the Cons cancelled it and then took parts for their own deals. We all know especially now a days if you don`t get a good education then you will either end up in jail or the welfare rolls or homeless.

[Qwerty]

Blockades (or information pickets) raise awareness that there is a problem. Most of us wouldn't even have a clue that there were lands claims issues without formal protests taking place. How many of us would even know that our country and our churches stole 150,000 native children and buried half of them in unmarked graves. How many would have known that land that was never ceded to Canada has been used by us without compensation? Still, does anyone actually understand the extent of poverty occurring on many reserves? And do we really even care?

Blockades and reclamations work for them. And since we are still stealing their children and denying them prosperity, what would you do if you were in their shoes and couldn't use the courts to seek fair treatment?

They should be arrested if they are trespassing period. OK that was inflammatory but so is your remark about the church...gimme a break.

Terrorism won't help at all, that is what these Indians are, terrorists.

Diplomacy is the only way to resolve this and to be honest the government needs to do something before people on both sides start getting killed. I don't get why they won't start talking myself, seems silly. Indians have some legitimate claims to be sure and yes they should be heard. What is the government waiting for?

[margrace]

LOL!!

nice! That spin is worthy of jdobbin!

Just curious, why do you continually attack people instead of providing a thoughtful post to the discussion?

[margrace]

They should be arrested if they are trespassing period. OK that was inflammatory but so is your remark about the church...gimme a break.

Terrorism won't help at all, that is what these Indians are, terrorists.

Diplomacy is the only way to resolve this and to be honest the government needs to do something before people on both sides start getting killed. I don't get why they won't start talking myself, seems silly. Indians have some legitimate claims to be sure and yes they should be heard. What is the government waiting for?

You cannot take away a peoples way of life and expect them to immediatly adjust. The superior attitude of the various gov'ts of Canada. has created these problems. I have heard too many derogatory remarks about "dirty indians" to believe anything we have been taught.

And we are guilty of much more, just remember the treatment of the Black people in Nova Scotia, the fact that a lot of the black conductors on our trains years ago were univercity educated. They couldn't get job otherwise.

[charter.rights]

They should be arrested if they are trespassing period. OK that was inflammatory but so is your remark about the church...gimme a break.

Terrorism won't help at all, that is what these Indians are, terrorists.

Diplomacy is the only way to resolve this and to be honest the government needs to do something before people on both sides start getting killed. I don't get why they won't start talking myself, seems silly. Indians have some legitimate claims to be sure and yes they should be heard. What is the government waiting for?

"Colour of right" Look up that term. It has some very interesting repercussions for "US".

The church continues to deny the location of the burials despite admitting that native children died in their care and their bodies were never returned to their families. The Anglican church even shredded thousands of documents when it was announced their would be an inquiry into the deaths of children under their care. The church and the government are culpable and the only thing that is derogatory is the fact they continue to refuse to divulge the locations of these unmarked graves.

Diplomacy doesn't work because the government is not honest in their discussions with native people. They not only deny legitimate claims but have their lawyers hold up those claims for decades, until the money runs out for the natives. And unless they are in our face, the natives' grievances will never be heard. There is no benefit to settle claims, or protect children unless WE pressure the government to do something about it.

You call it "terrorism"? NO it is not. They have a colour of right to prevent development of their lands and to stand up to an oppression government, just as we all do. That you won't exercise that right to stand up against the wrongs is society just means that someone else has to do it for you.

[Qwerty]

"Colour of right" Look up that term. It has some very interesting repercussions for "US".

The church continues to deny the location of the burials despite admitting that native children died in their care and their bodies were never returned to their families. The Anglican church even shredded thousands of documents when it was announced their would be an inquiry into the deaths of children under their care. The church and the government are culpable and the only thing that is derogatory is the fact they continue to refuse to divulge the locations of these unmarked graves.

Diplomacy doesn't work because the government is not honest in their discussions with native people. They not only deny legitimate claims but have their lawyers hold up those claims for decades, until the money runs out for the natives. And unless they are in our face, the natives' grievances will never be heard. There is no benefit to settle claims, or protect children unless WE pressure the government to do something about it.

You call it "terrorism"? NO it is not. They have a colour of right to prevent development of their lands and to stand up to an oppression government, just as we all do. That you won't exercise that right to stand up against the wrongs is society just means that someone else has to do it for you.

These are not peaceful occupations. The Indians are getting increasingly violent and destructive. Protesting is good and legal. Holding a town virtually hostage is terrorism. I don't know why people take it from them. Just because a group doesn't agree with another, it doesn't give any group the right to hold another hostage. That is a criminal act. If the police won't intervene sooner or later the law abiding citizens will get sick of the law breakers and chaos will ensue.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Qwerty

[August1991]

Seems native people want to be left alone too. but the government cannot stay out of their business. There are traditional healing programs, and traditional justice programs that have proven successful. However, every time there is a successful model, the government interferes and destroys it with their program modifications and legal opinions.

There is still a belief among the government and Canadians in general that unless native people look and act like us, they are worthless human beings. A wound will never heal if you keep picking at it.

And in the words of Redjacket 1811, “Brother! – If you wish us well then keep away; don’t disturb us.” In 200 years we still haven't gotten right.

I generally have no problem with leaving natives alone except that natives insist on receiving billions of dollars in subsidies from other taxpayers. It's normal that natives will have endless auditors, advisors, bureaucrats checking to find out how the money is being used.

Diplomacy doesn't work because the government is not honest in their discussions with native people. They not only deny legitimate claims but have their lawyers hold up those claims for decades, until the money runs out for the natives. And unless they are in our face, the natives' grievances will never be heard. There is no benefit to settle claims, or protect children unless WE pressure the government to do something about it.

You call it "terrorism"? NO it is not. They have a colour of right to prevent development of their lands and to stand up to an oppression government, just as we all do. That you won't exercise that right to stand up against the wrongs is society just means that someone else has to do it for you.

How are these violent actions going to protect the lives of any children on any reserve?

While you organize your violent protests, young children are getting shot on reserves. It is as if your house is burning down and you are outside arguing with your neighbour about where the fence should be.

[AngusThermopyle]

Within their communities they are talking responsibility for all kinds of things.

Nice non specific statement. How bout listing all these things for us, "all kinds of things" just doesn't cut it.

(more native children are in foster care today than all that went through the residential school system).

Would you be so kind as to show a little proof. Not that you can considering that at various times your claims about the numbers in Residential Schools have been all over the map, from 150,000 on up.

They can't solve their water problems because the pollution comes from upstream where we have decided that it was the best place to locate our major industries.

Some proof of this please. Actually the truth is that the majority of water problems stem from incompetence, just like Walkerton. A recent report stated that the majority of reserves now have access to good water. Their are still some that need improvement but its a very far cry from your unfounded statement. In fact 300,000,000 dollars have just been approved for continuing improvement and training of plant operators.

They can't solve their welfare problems because generally speaking the reserves don't have enough housing

Many reserves do indeed have enough housing. However if it is not maintained then problems arise. On the blood reserve major work is underway. In my small town you can't rent accomodations to save your life. all of the availlable places are being used to house Natives while their houses are being moved north for renovations. The rental accomodations are being paid for by tax payers. The renovations to the housing and the moving costs are being paid by tax payers. Why are they moving the houses to work on them? Simply because no contractors will work on the reserve due to theft and gang problems.

They can't solve their food problems because we have polluted the land air and water and mercury, heavy metals and an abundance of chemicals have made it into their food chains.

Considering the fact that their food chains are the same as those for the majority of Canadians by your logic we all suffer from the same problem.

There are all kinds of initiatives being used on reserve to solve problems.

Once again "all kinds" nothing specific, I guess you could mention building Casino's. In my opinion supplying something as bad or worse than any drug pusher out there.

No, what we are doing is the same thing we have always been doing. We are imposing our colonialism

Sure, right. We're doing that by trying to improve their lot in life by all means available short of just giving in to any unfounded and ridiculous demand they make.

And what is our response to the tobacco industry that once made cigarettes a multi-billion dollar a year business? We try to stop them.

Nice try...nah...not really. what we actually do is try to stop the illegal smuggling and sale of non duty tobacco products to Canadians. If Natives run the industry as they are supposed to, within the law, then they have no problems. It's just the illegal stuff they try to stop.

We label them as gangs so that the RCMP (and the OPP) can search without warrant, arrest them without cause and jail them until trial.

Boy! Are you that out of touch? Its Natives themselves who are calling out for help to resolve the major gang problems they have. Its Natives who are suffering at the hands of Native gangs. The recent case of the little girl has high lighted the issue yet you still blindly recite non factual nonsense. Fine friend to the Natives you are, espousing that gangs be ignored and allowed to continue their tactics of terror on reserves.

Thats all I have time for now, just thought that a post so inaccurate as yours should be addressed.

Edited April 18, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[White Doors]

Just curious, why do you continually attack people instead of providing a thoughtful post to the discussion?

An attack?

I was merely complimenting the board member for their innovative use of the english language margrace.