Poll - Canadians Prefer Obama

[Kitchener]

Your irrelevant preference has been noted, but if you don't mind (and even if you do) the Americans will nominate party candidates and elect a president and vice president just as they always have. The only requirement for office is that they be natural born citizens and at least 35 years of age.

Um, okay. If you can see where anyone disputed this, you should quote the post and have at it with both barrels.

Is that what this is all about? An elitist judgement about belligerence vs. intelligence...

Oh, no! The e-word!

Yes, I suggested that being intelligent is better than being clueless, for an American president. Clearly this strikes you as "elitism". It's hard to make sense of anyone seriously making that contention, but there you go.

[bush_cheney2004]

Oh, no! The e-word!

Yes, I suggested that being intelligent is better than being clueless, for an American president. Clearly this strikes you as "elitism". It's hard to make sense of anyone seriously making that contention, but there you go.

Yes, it does, because of your narrow context (Sunni vs. Shiite). Do you think the entirety of Executive Branch "intelligence" is represented by the depth and scope of just the president? Does your concern also apply to the US Congress and Supreme Court? How about all other aspects of American federal governance?

Are Americans at any level who are not as "intelligent" as you on this matter deemed to be clueless as well?

That's what I mean by "elitist".....perhaps failed presidential candidate John Kerry could explain it to you (in French or English).

[Kitchener]

Yes, it does, because of your narrow context (Sunni vs. Shiite). Do you think the entirety of Executive Branch "intelligence" is represented by the depth and scope of just the president?

No. The actual point is very obvious, leading me to wonder how you keep managing to invent new strawmen to wrestle.

Read carefully, now: I think anyone campaigning for the Presidency, issuing statements about the "war on terror" and the war in Iraq, and presenting himself as a competent, experienced and informed leader on both the war on terror and the war in Iraq, should know at least the most basic facts about who is who in those conflicts.

You respond that this preference for basic informedness and competence is "elitism". I think that response is too strange for words; frankly I doubt that even you believe it deep down.

perhaps failed presidential candidate John Kerry could explain it to you (in French or English).

What, going straight from memorized lines about Carter to memorized lines about Kerry? You missed Gore. Skip a groove or three on the record, did you?

[GostHacked]

Are Americans at any level who are not as "intelligent" as you on this matter deemed to be clueless as well?

The proper term for it is ignorance.

A couple phrases that should ring a bell is 'Know thy enemy' and 'Ignorance is bliss'

The higher up you go, the more you should know about the topic you are presenting. And being PTOS, one of the highest positions in the land, he should know or have been at least informed by his preceding staff about the basic difference between the different factions within the Muslim religion.

We know that there are many different factions of Christianity and Catholosism, even Judiasm. So it demands the notion that hey, there are different factions in other religions too. And it also demands we find out what those differences are and how they can be used for an advantage.

We are told we cannot be ignorant and complacent in this 'war on terror'. That we should be aware and on point when it comes to things that may hurt us. But we can be ignorant about who the US just invaded.

Yes, it does, because of your narrow context (Sunni vs. Shiite). Do you think the entirety of Executive Branch "intelligence" is represented by the depth and scope of just the president? Does your concern also apply to the US Congress and Supreme Court? How about all other aspects of American federal governance?

It is a matter of knowing the subject you are trying to educate the rest on. If you do not know anything about it, how can yo effectively proceed to correct the issue. All aspects of government should be scrutinized more and with more transparency. Mythinformation and missinformation are the reasons that the general populus of the US is ignorant of the real facts. They were never given the facts. They were made to believe something other than what is really going on. Smoke, mirrors, deceit, lies.

Not a government I can support (yes even a Canadian government which has been corrupt for decades).

The media has a big role in this dumbing down of the missinformation as well about the war on terror and Iraq. The people did not get bored of the information about the Iraq war. The media got bored of it and switched to some Brittney Spears OMG celebrity catastrophes that really do not belong in the news. Leave that for Entertainment Tonight and talk show hosts like Letterman and Leno.

We know very well polls are selected in a way to provoke a response. So it is geared toward an end result. Which makes the people believe what they see is the truth, when in fact it is a gross misrepresentation of what the people really think. But then again, according to you that is all irrelevant anyways. I wouyld think the Iraq war is on the minds of the people just as much as other things, like rising food and fuel prices. Which can be corolated with the so called war on terror.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't and in the end it does not matter. This is your logic as I see it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Read carefully, now: I think anyone campaigning for the Presidency, issuing statements about the "war on terror" and the war in Iraq, and presenting himself as a competent, experienced and informed leader on both the war on terror and the war in Iraq, should know at least the most basic facts about who is who in those conflicts.

You haven't demonstrated this to be the case either way for any/all of the current candidates for President of the United States. Furthermore, I suspect that you hold the existing president's knowledge on this matter in low regard. Nevertheless, your opinion on what should be known matters diddly squat with respect to actually winning the election with campaign rhetoric (true or false).

You respond that this preference for basic informedness and competence is "elitism". I think that response is too strange for words; frankly I doubt that even you believe it deep down.

To me it is a practical matter.....many US presidents have been elected to office without your penchant for "basic facts". The political process doesn't always reward well informed candidates, and isn't designed to do so. That's why it is called "politics".

Edited April 17, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

The higher up you go, the more you should know about the topic you are presenting. And being PTOS, one of the highest positions in the land, he should know or have been at least informed by his preceding staff about the basic difference between the different factions within the Muslim religion.

Not necessarily...the US Senate has select commitees and briefings for both foreign relations and intelligence designed to fill in the very gaps you say should not exist for such "higher ups". Still, everyone is not briefed or doesn't have time/interest in such matters. I don't think McCain falls into this group, but for the sake of discussion, it would not be unusual among 535 members of the US Congress.

We know that there are many different factions of Christianity and Catholosism, even Judiasm. So it demands the notion that hey, there are different factions in other religions too. And it also demands we find out what those differences are and how they can be used for an advantage.

Nope...there are hundreds if not thousands of different faiths / factions around the world. Do you know all the differences?

We are told we cannot be ignorant and complacent in this 'war on terror'. That we should be aware and on point when it comes to things that may hurt us. But we can be ignorant about who the US just invaded.

The US "invaded" Saddam's secular Iraq...remember?

It is a matter of knowing the subject you are trying to educate the rest on. If you do not know anything about it, how can yo effectively proceed to correct the issue. All aspects of government should be scrutinized more and with more transparency. Mythinformation and missinformation are the reasons that the general populus of the US is ignorant of the real facts. They were never given the facts. They were made to believe something other than what is really going on. Smoke, mirrors, deceit, lies.

Which gets us back to "elitism". You are assuming that an informed electorate would choose differently, or at least in a way that would be consistent with your own version of "misinformation". This is an election for candidates nominated by political parties and process, not "This is JEOPARDY!" for the smartest egghead in the race. The American electorate can choose any qualified candidate regardless of intellectual pedigree, and has done so many times. It is "elitist" to think the process must be otherwise.

Not a government I can support (yes even a Canadian government which has been corrupt for decades).

Don't fret...even smart guys can be corrupt!

The media has a big role in this dumbing down of the missinformation as well about the war on terror and Iraq. The people did not get bored of the information about the Iraq war. The media got bored of it and switched to some Brittney Spears OMG celebrity catastrophes that really do not belong in the news. Leave that for Entertainment Tonight and talk show hosts like Letterman and Leno.

Bullpucky...the "media" switches to whatever will sell ad time, and it doesn't owe us a damn thing. For those who want a steady fix of all things Iraq, sources are readily available.

We know very well polls are selected in a way to provoke a response. So it is geared toward an end result. Which makes the people believe what they see is the truth, when in fact it is a gross misrepresentation of what the people really think. But then again, according to you that is all irrelevant anyways. I wouyld think the Iraq war is on the minds of the people just as much as other things, like rising food and fuel prices. Which can be corolated with the so called war on terror.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't and in the end it does not matter. This is your logic as I see it.

Nope....rising fuel and food prices has far more to do with China and India competing for hydrocarbon resources. We can certainly agree that your opinion on the US presidential race is irrelevant by definition unless you plan to vote. The Iraq "war" is on a long list of campaign issues, and it isn't number one.

[GostHacked]

BC

Nope...there are hundreds if not thousands of different faiths / factions around the world. Do you know all the differences?

Nope. But thanks for agreeing with me. I am aware that there will at least be differences. I am an outsider when it comes to religion. I do not understand religion on many levels. Also, I am no leader of the land, but if I were, I would at least take it into condiseration and be aware and empower myself with some basic knowledge. Something most people in this Administration or any government fails to address, which causes problems. Know thy enemy, again this is very important to consider.

The US "invaded" Saddam's secular Iraq...remember?

But not being aware of the difference seculars within Iraq, makes you look like an idiot.

Don't fret...even smart guys can be corrupt!

Such awesome insight, this changes everything!.

Which gets us back to "elitism". You are assuming that an informed electorate would choose differently, or at least in a way that would be consistent with your own version of "misinformation".

A more informed electorate will make better desicions when it comes to electing a leader. This is not elitism in any way shape or form. It is called knowing what the f*ck is going on. Information is power, and the more information ... without slant/bias or 'no spin zoned' information people are able to make a better decision. And this is part of my problem with the MSM. Yes they sell ad times, for most of the MSM outlets are owned by major corporations that have a hand in how news gets delivered.

Such an advantage to own a news outlet, you can choose what gets on the air. They choose, cause they are the ones paying. It is that simple how it works. Again this is part of the ignorance and complacecy that is presented by the MSM to the population.

This is an election for candidates nominated by political parties and process, not "This is JEOPARDY!" for the smartest egghead in the race. The American electorate can choose any qualified candidate regardless of intellectual pedigree, and has done so many times. It is "elitist" to think the process must be otherwise.

Democracy WHUT????? Considering you have to be an elitist in order to ..

Wait.. let's look at what elitist means and how it relates to this thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitist

Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite — a select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern [1]. Alternatively, the term elitism may be used to describe a situation in which power is concentrated in the hands of the elite.

Everyone in government can be considered an elitist by this definition. CEOs of corporations can be condisered elitists. Both sets of elitists work together for a common end and missinformed through the MSMs they control to get a world view out there that is biased in huge ways.

Being informed won't get your bum sore. It may save you from being screwed.

[bush_cheney2004]

Nope. But thanks for agreeing with me. I am aware that there will at least be differences. I am an outsider when it comes to religion. I do not understand religion on many levels. Also, I am no leader of the land, but if I were, I would at least take it into condiseration and be aware and empower myself with some basic knowledge. Something most people in this Administration or any government fails to address, which causes problems.

Correct...you are not the leader of the land, but you claim to be better informed than those who are. Brilliant....seek true love in academia, not politics.

Know thy enemy, again this is very important to consider.

Nah....killing the enemy without even "knowing" them works well too.

But not being aware of the difference seculars within Iraq, makes you look like an idiot.

No, it just means you don't care. I'm sure that Iran knew of the "difference seculars" during the Iran-Iraq war.

A more informed electorate will make better desicions when it comes to electing a leader. This is not elitism in any way shape or form. It is called knowing what the f*ck is going on. Information is power, and the more information ...

Nonsense.....don't confuse knowledge with the power of economics and politics. Dick Nixon sure didn't have any problem figuring that out.

without slant/bias or 'no spin zoned' information people are able to make a better decision. And this is part of my problem with the MSM. Yes they sell ad times, for most of the MSM outlets are owned by major corporations that have a hand in how news gets delivered.

Tough titty...if you can do better, raise the capital and start your own network.

Such an advantage to own a news outlet, you can choose what gets on the air. They choose, cause they are the ones paying. It is that simple how it works. Again this is part of the ignorance and complacecy that is presented by the MSM to the population.

Precious and not so "informed" democracy existed long before MSM came along. Stop blaming somebody else for your own disatisfactions.

Being informed won't get your bum sore. It may save you from being screwed.

Yes....I hear that elitists like that.

[GostHacked]

Correct...you are not the leader of the land, but you claim to be better informed than those who are. Brilliant....seek true love in academia, not politics.

I knew the reasons for war were bullshit to start with, and turned out I was right. So in a way I am more informed than the government on that issue. This puts more resolve in my conviction. The reasons for war were changed several times. I knew it was just about control and a new imperialistic era for the US. So seeing a lie for a lie makes me better informed, than the government, if not , then at least most of the people who initially supported the war. I knew their game, and did not play.

Nah....killing the enemy without even "knowing" them works well too.

Another 9/11 comming your way.

No, it just means you don't care. I'm sure that Iran knew of the "difference seculars" during the Iran-Iraq war.

That is your shallow interpretation of it. I am also sure that the US knew of the different secular factions as well, so they helped one to gas another. I can play your game too, only I know your game. You don't seem to yet.

Nonsense.....don't confuse knowledge with the power of economics and politics. Dick Nixon sure didn't have any problem figuring that out.

Well we know how Nixon's term ends.

Tough titty...if you can do better, raise the capital and start your own network.

Don't need to. The Internet is a wonderful place to get the message out. It is working, for people like you are comming here to 'debate' about such topics. But rasing such capitol could cause me issues. If it was my own money then I can do what I want. However if someone loaned/gave money/sponsored me, then they will have a say in what I can put out there. This is just another thing you fail to understand. Actually I know you understand, you play the Bush_Cheney (read Devil) advocate in all cases.

Precious and not so "informed" democracy existed long before MSM came along. Stop blaming somebody else for your own disatisfactions.

Alright smarty pants. How am I, a lowly insignificant Canadian, to blame myself, for what happens in the US government? You don't even take time to proof your posts before throwing them up online. I am dissatisfied with how the US went to war. I am also dissatisfied with your posts. But that is somehow my problem and not yours, according to your psycho-analysys of me. But you seem just as quick to turn the tables when you are in the hot seat. I see through you. It is not that hard.

Yes....I hear that elitists like that.

You are loosing the grasp of the definition of the term.

[bush_cheney2004]

I knew the reasons for war were bullshit to start with, and turned out I was right....

What / when you think you knew anything is/was irrelevant. The UK/USA/AUS did exactly what they wanted to do when the opportunity presented itself, pretext (i.e. "lies") be damned. You may also be right about the weather in St. Johns on Thursday, and it will have equal significance.

Alright smarty pants. How am I, a lowly insignificant Canadian, to blame myself, for what happens in the US government? You don't even take time to proof your posts before throwing them up online. I am dissatisfied with how the US went to war. I am also dissatisfied with your posts....

See..you have answered your own question. Dissatisfaction over events and circumstances that you do not control is a waste of time. It is silly for you to work up a lather over my posts or the foreign policy of the USA, and doing so is completely up to you, not the "MSM", or blogs, or chips that don't fall your way.

If you (and other high minded folk) want to really make a difference with some skin in the game, go stand in front of a Caterpillar D-9 on the West Bank, otherwise you can choose death by a thousand cuts of "dissatisfaction" while living just like me on the Good Ship Lollipop.

[GostHacked]

What / when you think you knew anything is/was irrelevant. The UK/USA/AUS did exactly what they wanted to do when the opportunity presented itself, pretext (i.e. "lies") be damned. You may also be right about the weather in St. Johns on Thursday, and it will have equal significance.

See..you have answered your own question. Dissatisfaction over events and circumstances that you do not control is a waste of time. It is silly for you to work up a lather over my posts or the foreign policy of the USA, and doing so is completely up to you, not the "MSM", or blogs, or chips that don't fall your way.

If you (and other high minded folk) want to really make a difference with some skin in the game, go stand in front of a Caterpillar D-9 on the West Bank, otherwise you can choose death by a thousand cuts of "dissatisfaction" while living just like me on the Good Ship Lollipop.

We are not talking about the West bank, or even Iraq for that matter here.

So even if I wanted to make a difference you say it is a waste of my time. Just go along with the status quo of the ppropagandized rhetoric out of the Buch Admins mouth. Sorry can't, and never will do that. And there is the dissatisfaction which you state does not matter.

There is one thread where you did admit that what Canadians say matters, for the economy and security is heavily tied into the states. So whatever your bonehead of a pres does, affects us. So taking that into consideration is key here.

Untill the likes of you change your mind and discover that you can make a difference, just sit there and shut up. At least that is what we are told to do all the time about this war. With us or against us.

As it is the Bush admin does not even care about even what you say. But yet you keep feeling the need to voice your opinion.

As a Canadian I prefered Ron Paul.

[bush_cheney2004]

We are not talking about the West bank, or even Iraq for that matter here.

But I am, unless of course you are completely satisfied with either or both.

So even if I wanted to make a difference you say it is a waste of my time. Just go along with the status quo of the ppropagandized rhetoric out of the Buch Admins mouth. Sorry can't, and never will do that. And there is the dissatisfaction which you state does not matter.

No, I'm saying your current mode of expressing dissatisfaction is irrelevant in the context of changing anything. Absent action, it's just rope-a-dope with a keyboard. From your vantage point, even if you agreed with the Bush administration it would be irrelevant save for your own precious "satisfaction".

There is one thread where you did admit that what Canadians say matters, for the economy and security is heavily tied into the states. So whatever your bonehead of a pres does, affects us. So taking that into consideration is key here.

No, what you say does not matter....what you DO is far more important. Talk is cheap.

Untill the likes of you change your mind and discover that you can make a difference, just sit there and shut up. At least that is what we are told to do all the time about this war. With us or against us.

Nope...it was "....with us or with the the terrorists" or (paraphrasing from another interview...) against us in the war on terror.

Nobody is telling you to shut up or sit, because it doesn't matter wheter you do or not...hence irrelevance. Much as you loathe to admit, I represent the collective actions and purpose of not only American foreign policy, but the geo-political continuum for over 100 years. Pretending that the "likes of me" would even want to make a difference (i.e. change anything) is wishful thinking at best. Perhaps this is the root of your misplaced dissatisfaction.

As it is the Bush admin does not even care about even what you say. But yet you keep feeling the need to voice your opinion.

As a Canadian I prefered Ron Paul.

I certainly hope not....what would be the point in caring what I say any more than you? The difference is that I sleep quite well each night while you're writhing in "dissatisfaction". Plus I can vote, drop a line to my congressman, or even donate campaign funds. In the big picture of things I don't care if you stay, lay, or pray, and surely don't expect anymore from someone else. There will be still more American presidents that do things you don't like but have absolutely no say in whatsoever. What will you do when Bush is gone?

Misery loves company..here is a link to Canadians for Ron Paul:

http://blog.canadiansforronpaul.com/

Edited April 24, 2008 by bush_cheney2004