In Ontario hourly wage goes up

[Oleg Bach]

I was talking to a friend in Windsor On and she told me some of her friends went out to Alberta to work and they found that even though the wages are higher than other provinces, the cost of living is very high and so they came back to On. This is true?

There is no accomodations for imported workers in Alberta who are busy buildig accomodations (houses) for new arrivals usually from other nations. I worked in Alberta during the 80s boom..tons of money and no culture. Alberta's so-called boom is moving to fast to be truely viable and sustainable. Making money hand over fist is not a stable economy..it's a gold rush and all gold rushes leave ghost towns in their wake once the get rich quick folks leave..and it will come to an end..and the common guy will not benefit in the long run..half the workers spend their pay on booze and dope..so where is the future and were is the real boom to Canada.

[madmax]

Can't back up your assertions, so you get defensive and aggressive at the same time.....

Must be the way you read it.... how abou this symbol

Or this one

Typical.

There is undoubtedly a large underground economy in Alberta and many other places and always will be. It takes no effort to find people who will work for less if paid in cash, particluarly in trades and construction. Two different prices : cash or cheque.

Back that up . You say it takes no effort to find people who will work for less if paid in Cash. Particularly in Trades and Construction.

You and I know that it is true......

But they don't work for less than minimum wage-far from it, what would be the pint? They work for less than the big money charged in legal transactions, not for tiny amounts of money.

Try again, and work a little harder next time to coax some reality into your ideology..

People can and will work for less then the minimum wage, and it does happen. There is nothing ideological about this. The only thing in question, is whether Alberta is immune.

Just because you don't think it is possible and/or doesn't make sense to you, or it isn't a logical choice, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, or that people won't do it.

If you wish to suggest that there isn't a single person in all of Alberta working for less then the minimum wage. Feel free to do so.

I am sure they all have a SIN # too.

[madmax]

I was talking to a friend in Windsor On and she told me some of her friends went out to Alberta to work and they found that even though the wages are higher than other provinces, the cost of living is very high and so they came back to On. This is true?

I know of companies with Ontario/Alberta operations, flying people in back and forth every two weeks to meet the Labour demands, and deal with the shortage of housing. Ironically one company being a supplier to the housing construction industry.

Edited May 20, 2008 by madmax

[StephieSalmons]

When I originally started working I was making $6.85/hr and I was happy with it. I understood minimum wage was intended for students and not for someone who actually wanted to make a living. On 6.85 I worked and managed to pay for rent, hydro, cable, internet, car insurance, groceries, etc all without having to goto the food bank. $10/hr used to seem like a lot now, but since the raise of minimum wage it seems insignificant.

Raising minimum wage is the biggest mistake we could ever do in ontario. We fail to see that with each hike in wage comes a hike in our grocery bills, our rent, etc while everyone else's salary remains the same. Hiking minimum wage also takes away the one thing we need - motivation. Motivation to actually work hard to get an education to get a better job. Why even try to educate yourself when college graduates make little more than you?

In regards to the black market, I can see why it exists. We get taxed ridiculously high and our government, in its glorious socialistic nature, wants to make everyone on the same level. Low income earners need to shut up and stop whining because guess what? We pay an arm and a leg to fund social services that give them food, money, shelter... things I am not entitled to because my husband makes too much money but he still gets taxed at around 40% even though I am a dependent (income splitting for everyone please). We pay out way too much, our government gives out way too much and now no one wants to actually work. So a black market would be great... I would enjoy not paying 40% tax on income.

[jdobbin]

When I originally started working I was making $6.85/hr and I was happy with it. I understood minimum wage was intended for students and not for someone who actually wanted to make a living. On 6.85 I worked and managed to pay for rent, hydro, cable, internet, car insurance, groceries, etc all without having to goto the food bank. $10/hr used to seem like a lot now, but since the raise of minimum wage it seems insignificant.

So you think minimum wage should be axed?

[StephieSalmons]

So you think minimum wage should be axed?

By axed you mean no minimum wage? No. But there is no need for minimum wage to keep rising the way it is. 6.85 was a good wage for people to start out at and good employers generally gave raises based on performance then. Now minimum wage is approaching the part/time salary cap at an employer I recently worked for. Its just sad that because people dont try and get job's outside of the walmarts and the mc donalds of the world consumers will have to pay $7 for a big mac and higher prices across the board at so called discount chains. I can only imagine how hard it is for people who run mom and pop shops now - if they werent out of business then, they are going to be soon.

[jdobbin]

By axed you mean no minimum wage? No. But there is no need for minimum wage to keep rising the way it is. 6.85 was a good wage for people to start out at and good employers generally gave raises based on performance then. Now minimum wage is approaching the part/time salary cap at an employer I recently worked for. Its just sad that because people dont try and get job's outside of the walmarts and the mc donalds of the world consumers will have to pay $7 for a big mac and higher prices across the board at so called discount chains. I can only imagine how hard it is for people who run mom and pop shops now - if they werent out of business then, they are going to be soon.

So if inflation continues to rise 1.7% annually, you think it would be good to reduce costs for people who pay a payroll 1.7% a year for how long?

Tipped labour in the U.S. has a minimum wage of $2.13 while the normal rate is $5.85.

In Canada, the highest rate is $8.75.

There is no agreement on the part of economists on minimum wage. Some say drop it, some say raise. There is very little middle ground.

[StephieSalmons]

So if inflation continues to rise 1.7% annually, you think it would be good to reduce costs for people who pay a payroll 1.7% a year for how long?

Tipped labour in the U.S. has a minimum wage of $2.13 while the normal rate is $5.85.

In Canada, the highest rate is $8.75.

There is no agreement on the part of economists on minimum wage. Some say drop it, some say raise. There is very little middle ground.

All I'm saying is that minimum wage will have increased 43.5% since 2003 in 2010. It will have surpassed inflation by 33.85%. Every year minimum wage increases at approximately 8% but wages of other earners, the white collar and such do not receive this. Why do we reward people for being uneducated and punish those who actually try and do something with their lives?

[jdobbin]

Why do we reward people for being uneducated and punish those who actually try and do something with their lives?

Seems to me that anyone trying to work is trying to do something with their lives.

As I said, there is vast disagreement amongst economists on this subject.

I could approve dropping the minimum wage altogether if Canada had a much more efficient and expanded earned income tax credit. It does more for the working poor than any other program.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/agency/budget/2007/witb-e.html

Edited May 23, 2008 by jdobbin

[madmax]

But they don't work for less than minimum wage-far from it, what would be the pint? They work for less than the big money charged in legal transactions, not for tiny amounts of money.

Try again, and work a little harder next time to coax some reality into your ideology..

I have been following a story in Alberta (Fort McMurray) where the Electrician and the Engineer where making $2.47/ Hour.

I have stated in the past that you can get an engineer in China for $300 a month. So getting between $400 and $600 month may seem like a good deal.

With the deaths of these two Gentlemen in the Labour Camp, the cat is out of the bag about what is happening with alot of the immigrants coming in from offshore. Now it is clear why many are "dissappearing" and working as illegals elsewhere, with no documentation. I highly doubt that they are making the minimum wage if they are illegals.

Just about anything is an increase from the wage above.

The Alberta Government has acknowledged they let these people down. It would be wise to have a good look at where all these immigrants are finding themselves.

Does Alberta have a "Don't ask, Don't Tell" policy with regards to illegal immigrants?

[Bryan]

Yes I think there is a qualifier....while black market could also be underground....

....there was an instance east of Toronto where a restauranteur was hiring waitresses as contract workers...he paid them nothing (zilch, diddly squat..) and they were supposed to work for tips AND...pay him a percentage. I believe he operate dthat way for about a month before it came out and he was put in order....

I think this is perfectly legitimate business model. It's up to those contractors to decide if it's worth their time. In some restaurants, the tip money far exceeds the wages anyway.

With a few tweaks in the policy (like perhaps a commission on the value of the meals ordered), the owner should be able to go right back to doing this. Hairdressers and salesmen often have similar arrangements.

On the otherhand, there is a huge percentage of people who work under the table...I knew a cook who made a decent wage and was always grabbinbg extra shifts for the overtime and then grumbling about the taxes he lost ....so he worked out an arrangement with the owner, he worked x many hours a week overtime under the table ...but instead of time and a half (22.50)he got about 2 dollars more an hour

That's what confuses me about some of the other posters claims of underground economy paying LESS. People don't go underground to make less, they do it to make more.

Edited June 20, 2008 by Bryan

[M.Dancer]

With a few tweaks in the policy (like perhaps a commission on the value of the meals ordered), the owner should be able to go right back to doing this. Hairdressers and salesmen often have similar arrangements.

Not always. In another example I gave the fellow made less. Normally an employer will pay the underground because he is avoiding things like having a safe working environment, paying taxes, EI, workers comp...

...A haidresser normally rents his chair and keeps 90% of what they make....But resetaruant staff often have duties where they make no tips..cleaning, bussing, etc etc...these girls were in the end working for minimum wage and that's why te fellow got exposed. He got fined on a few counts too if I remember....

[madmax]

That's what confuses me about some of the other posters claims of underground economy paying LESS. People don't go underground to make less, they do it to make more.

The Underground Economy services both.

[roof_top_eagle]

You'd think Minimum wage equals minimum work but that's not how it is, I do security and guard buildings where guys spend more time on break than they do working, get a gas card, company car and all that plus a nice 90K+ salary, minimum wage going up is a good thing because if you make minimum wage you deal with more BS and work allot harder to make that piss poor wage. With prices increasing and community colleges taking on more foreign students than local ones how are people to go to school to get a better career? People in the security industry get paid MW even if they have experience and a college Police foundation education. How are they to pay for a car, gas and their student loans?

Maybe this is because I live in a town with 3 colleges or universities and it's also a tourist town, (Niagara Falls) all you can find is MW work out here, you are lucky if you can get good wages. I'd bet it's because employers see us all as students. Well after being denied to Niagara College twice while I see a zillion foreign students how does one do what I keep being told to do? get an education when schools wont accept you and make no money if you do because of a MW environment.

I think many people are stuck in MW jobs because they have rent to pay and high gas and food prices so college is almost impossible. You can't save for college while making no money.

I must admit it is frustrating as hell! What do you take in school? More and more good paying jobs are being lost in Ontario and Canada. In Niagara, they are filling the void with a mountain of call centers.

[whowhere]

Well after being denied to Niagara College twice while I see a zillion foreign students how does one do what I keep being told to do?

This is shocking? After nineteen you are considered a mature student. Most colleges will bend over backwards to get you enrolled. You must be trying for a high demand program like a commercial pilot or something. Pick something more realistic.

[roof_top_eagle]

This is shocking? After nineteen you are considered a mature student. Most colleges will bend over backwards to get you enrolled. You must be trying for a high demand program like a commercial pilot or something. Pick something more realistic.

Actually I was going for the space program.....I might want to look closer at that "mature student" stuff.

[madmax]

You'd think Minimum wage equals minimum work but that's not how it is, I do security and guard buildings where guys spend more time on break than they do working, get a gas card, company car and all that plus a nice 90K+ salary, minimum wage going up is a good thing because if you make minimum wage you deal with more BS and work allot harder to make that piss poor wage. With prices increasing and community colleges taking on more foreign students than local ones how are people to go to school to get a better career? People in the security industry get paid MW even if they have experience and a college Police foundation education. How are they to pay for a car, gas and their student loans?

Maybe this is because I live in a town with 3 colleges or universities and it's also a tourist town, (Niagara Falls) all you can find is MW work out here, you are lucky if you can get good wages. I'd bet it's because employers see us all as students. Well after being denied to Niagara College twice while I see a zillion foreign students how does one do what I keep being told to do? get an education when schools wont accept you and make no money if you do because of a MW environment.

I think many people are stuck in MW jobs because they have rent to pay and high gas and food prices so college is almost impossible. You can't save for college while making no money.

I must admit it is frustrating as hell! What do you take in school? More and more good paying jobs are being lost in Ontario and Canada. In Niagara, they are filling the void with a mountain of call centers.

Seriously, I would get out of Niagara falls and go to Sask or ALberta and get a General Labour job that pays good money. Industries/Services pay alot more there and I have some guys telling me the work is easy, and people quit regularly, to go to even easier jobs with more pay.

Or I would look for what is in demand in the business sector in the West. I receive calls regularly for accountants and book keepers. Contact a firm, find out what they want and get training for that ASAP.

Meanwhile here...

The MW & Temp thing has become a cancer in Ontario, and it will take a paradigm shift to change it. People settling for the 60 hour work work is becoming the standard, so you may as well go out west where there is Overtime pay and better labour standards.

More and more I am seeing people put in 80 hrs followed by 40 hours the next week and get the 60 hour regular pay from averaging. It still is barely above minimum wage at the end of the day for alot of these jobs.

Luckily...

Not all places use the 60 hour work week, many stay to the 44hours, but they are the smaller operations.

Either way, get your skills or your butt out west. You be able to put either to work if you can hustle, and the pay rewards are there.

No excuses, just results.

[madmax]

This is shocking? After nineteen you are considered a mature student. Most colleges will bend over backwards to get you enrolled. You must be trying for a high demand program like a commercial pilot or something. Pick something more realistic.

I can use Welders. Lots of Welders. I have commercial pilots looking for work, btw, if anyone has a job lead.