A conservative vs. a socialist (NDP) government

March 23, 2008

With the recent rise of the NDP (popularity now near 20%) and Harper's total disregard of good governance, do you think the NDP would form a good government? Would you have more faith in a Conservative government or an NDP government if you compare the two federal parties?

Keepitsimple · March 23, 2008

With the recent rise of the NDP (popularity now near 20%) and Harper's total disregard of good governance, do you think the NDP would form a good government? Would you have more faith in a Conservative government or an NDP government if you compare the two federal parties?

Your question may have been valid two years ago but I'm afraid it looks like the NDP is going the way of the dinasaur and will have to fight it out with the Greens for any political relevance. I'm not really sure how they can turn their fortunes around but as an Ontario resident, but the Jack Layton/Olivia Chow combo comes across as Toronto centric - and although it has some play in Vancouver, I think it tunes much of the rest of the country out.

Sean Hayward · March 23, 2008

I think your question is not valid at this time. Have you seen the recent byelection results? NDP roughly tied with Green Party in 3 of the 4. It would appear to me that the NDP may be on the brink of a meltdown similar to the one in the 1993 election, where they went from about 40 seats to less than 10.

jbg · March 24, 2008

With the recent rise of the NDP (popularity now near 20%) and Harper's total disregard of good governance, do you think the NDP would form a good government? Would you have more faith in a Conservative government or an NDP government if you compare the two federal parties?

After nearly spitting out my grapefruit soda all over the computer screen on reading the opening post name and poll,my response to your first phrase, about "Harper's total disregard of good governance" is "when did you stop beating your wife"?¹

¹See "Presuppositions" near bottom of LING 101: Semantics (link).

Edited March 24, 2008 by jbg

Borg · March 24, 2008

With the recent rise of the NDP (popularity now near 20%) and Harper's total disregard of good governance, do you think the NDP would form a good government? Would you have more faith in a Conservative government or an NDP government if you compare the two federal parties?

I believe those who would take without thought - the ndp - from those who build and produce - could stand to spend a few days thinking about how this country was built.

The sweat of those who wanted to create and construct for themselves, their families, their friends and their country usually came from the brow of honourable men and women who despised the socialist concept.

NDP are those who believe they can steal from the "rich" ignoring the fact that it was those very same "rich" people who made this country.

As far as I am concerned only those who would destroy by robbery would vote for NDP. NDP and hyenas go hand in hand - yipping and yapping and stealing - surviving off the efforts of others.

Bring on the conservatives - we need more of them.

The lion hates the hyena to the point of hunting them. We need a few more lions in this country.

Borg

White Doors · March 24, 2008

The lion hates the hyena to the point of hunting them. We need a few more lions in this country.

Amen!! Can I get an Amen brother?!

Peter F · March 24, 2008

Take ur f'ing money and shove it up ur arse. Niether you nor I have 'made' a dime. Every penny you or I have we took from someone else.

Walmart doesn't make money - it takes money just like every other business in the world.

As a socialist I have no interest in your house, your car, your HDTV or your cable or anything else you've collected over the years - and that includes you swiss bank accounts. So stop being so damned paranoid.

Borg · March 24, 2008

Take ur f'ing money and shove it up ur arse. Niether you nor I have 'made' a dime. Every penny you or I have we took from someone else.
Walmart doesn't make money - it takes money just like every other business in the world.

As a socialist I have no interest in your house, your car, your HDTV or your cable or anything else you've collected over the years - and that includes you swiss bank accounts. So stop being so damned paranoid.

Sensitive aren't we?

You will take my money and my hard earned assets through taxation and equalization.

If you are a socialist you are a thief - a hyena not worth a pound of flesh or a penny of hard earned money - simply a blood sucking leech.

We may have taken it - but it was given freely in commerce - a socialist will DEMAND it. That is the difference.

Borg

M.Dancer · March 24, 2008

With the recent rise of the NDP (popularity now near 20%) and Harper's total disregard of good governance, do you think the NDP would form a good government? Would you have more faith in a Conservative government or an NDP government if you compare the two federal parties?

The by elections showed that the NDP is in trouble....which is afterall a very good thing. With Castro gone they should take the hint...

M.Dancer · March 24, 2008

As a socialist I have no interest in your house, your car, your HDTV or your cable or anything else you've collected over the years - and that includes you swiss bank accounts. So stop being so damned paranoid.

But as a socialist you have a great interest in my taxable income and the legacies of my parents and grand parents....and if I have any left after the tax man takes it......you will want a pice of that too...

M.Dancer · March 24, 2008

Take ur f'ing money and shove it up ur arse. Niether you nor I have 'made' a dime. Every penny you or I have we took from someone else.
Walmart doesn't make money - it takes money just like every other business in the world.

In a nutshell and example of why socialists ruin economies....they see economy as a closed environment, they don't believe wealth is created, only redistributed.

I make money by creating things that didn't exist before.....I create wealth.

Pliny · March 24, 2008

Take ur f'ing money and shove it up ur arse. Niether you nor I have 'made' a dime. Every penny you or I have we took from someone else.
Walmart doesn't make money - it takes money just like every other business in the world.

If you consult the English dictionary you will find a definition of "make" that means "to earn". This is the concept that is being expressed when someone says they "made some money". They are saying they "earned" some money. Hope that clears up the confusion.

The concept you express is that there is no exchange or trade made in "earning" money. Stating everyone just "takes" money implies no one earned it. Do people where you live just "take" money?

One must also further clarify "take". If something is given you may "take" it. It is a gift. If it is not offered you may not "take" it, that is theft.

As a socialist I have no interest in your house, your car, your HDTV or your cable or anything else you've collected over the years - and that includes you swiss bank accounts. So stop being so damned paranoid.

Yeah...that's what socialists generally say, Peter. It reminds me of the the shoplifter who said, "It wasn't me! My hand did it."

Blur · March 24, 2008

Take ur f'ing money and shove it up ur arse. Niether you nor I have 'made' a dime. Every penny you or I have we took from someone else.
Walmart doesn't make money - it takes money just like every other business in the world.

Pliny,

Would you say our world is wealthier than it was 1000 years ago?

If so, where did this additional wealth come from?

bye

M.Dancer · March 24, 2008

Pliny,
Would you say our world is wealthier than it was 1000 years ago?

If so, where did this additional wealth come from?

bye

It was created with items like electricity, aluminium, chemical fertilizer, penicillian and indoor plumbing.

eyeball · March 24, 2008

I make money by creating things that didn't exist before.....I create wealth.

Just like those hard working folks at Bear Stearns? No doubt you do have to create your own wealth though, you're probably to far up the food chain to benefit or need any socialist-like bail-out from that direction. That said you're also likely to far down the chain for a seat on the lifeboats that Nanny has for the high-end losers who can't swim on their own.

Conservative vs socialist? Its all pretty relative I think. Ideology is like curved space, go far enough to the right and eventually you come back full circle to the left.

normanchateau · March 24, 2008

Take ur f'ing money and shove it up ur arse. Niether you nor I have 'made' a dime. Every penny you or I have we took from someone else.
Walmart doesn't make money - it takes money just like every other business in the world.

As a socialist I have no interest in your house, your car, your HDTV or your cable or anything else you've collected over the years - and that includes you swiss bank accounts. So stop being so damned paranoid.

Your arguments are probably not the best way to convert others to socialism and make about as much sense as social conservative Stephen Harper professing financial conservatism while increasing spending by more money than any government in the history of Canada:

http://andrewcoyne.com/columns/2007/03/fla...ig-spenders.php

Conclusion: For a free-spending government to squander billions of tax dollars on new programs and get away with it, that government must be viewed as "conservative".

jbg · March 24, 2008

The lion hates the hyena to the point of hunting them. We need a few more lions in this country.

Good post but for the zoological references. It may well be that the lion hunts the hyena, but hyenas are actually quite active as hunters. They are not mere scavengers by any means.

Take ur f'ing money and shove it up ur arse. Niether you nor I have 'made' a dime. Every penny you or I have we took from someone else****As a socialist I have no interest in your house, your car, your HDTV or your cable or anything else you've collected over the years - and that includes you swiss bank accounts. So stop being so damned paranoid.

At least you feel strongly enough to curse. That adds an element of conviction to the argument.

Walmart doesn't make money - it takes money just like every other business in the world.

Walmart adds value inasmuch as the Chinese laborer making the goods has no way to deliver them to store shelves in the US or Canada. Without the delivery chain the worker doesn't get paid. While we may have certain feelings about the export of jobs the same would apply to domestically manufactured goods. The workers simply cannot organize themselves efficiently to ensure the prompt delivery of merchandise directly to distant customers.

Peter F · March 24, 2008

Sensitive aren't we?
You will take my money and my hard earned assets through taxation and equalization.

If you are a socialist you are a thief - a hyena not worth a pound of flesh or a penny of hard earned money - simply a blood sucking leech.

We may have taken it - but it was given freely in commerce - a socialist will DEMAND it. That is the difference.

Borg

Lets see .... we elect governments .... such governments determine how much tax is to be paid. The present Conservative government doesn't DEMAND you pay taxes? But an NDP government will?

It is to laugh

Peter F · March 24, 2008

In a nutshell and example of why socialists ruin economies....they see economy as a closed environment, they don't believe wealth is created, only redistributed.
I make money by creating things that didn't exist before.....I create wealth.

The 'wealth' you create is called 'Mark-up' or 'profit' and is entirely dependant upon how much money your market possesses.

normanchateau · March 24, 2008

Would you have more faith in a Conservative government or an NDP government if you compare the two federal parties?

What we have now is a Conservative government which spends like a NDP government but promotes bilingualism and social policies closer to those of a Liberal government.

Of course supporters of this whacko, free-spending government would claim, if they were more forthcoming, that's only because they are a minority government. They're in a catch-22 situation. If they claim that a Conservative majority government would act differently, they'd lose the middle-of-the-road voter that they're desparate to attract.

Peter F · March 24, 2008

But as a socialist you have a great interest in my taxable income and the legacies of my parents and grand parents....and if I have any left after the tax man takes it......you will want a pice of that too...

Will I? Past actions of NDP governments wherein they stole every dime anyone ever had?

Were the members of ABBA not wealthy? Were the French enslaved?

Shall we speak of realities here or shall we continue to call all NDP supporters thieves and jackals?

Does anyone actualy wanna debate anything?

Peter F · March 24, 2008

If you consult the English dictionary you will find a definition of "make" that means "to earn". This is the concept that is being expressed when someone says they "made some money". They are saying they "earned" some money. Hope that clears up the confusion.
The concept you express is that there is no exchange or trade made in "earning" money. Stating everyone just "takes" money implies no one earned it. Do people where you live just "take" money?

One must also further clarify "take". If something is given you may "take" it. It is a gift. If it is not offered you may not "take" it, that is theft.

Yeah...that's what socialists generally say, Peter. It reminds me of the the shoplifter who said, "It wasn't me! My hand did it."

Sure. A bank robber 'earns' his money - no question. So doe's a priest and a drug dealer and banks and Nigerian functionaries and even Taliban footsloggers. Everyone earns thier income. I understand that concept - Borg doesn't, talk to him.

edited to add: y'see Borg thinks he earns his money but 'Socialists' don't earn thiers. Socialists, according to Borg et al, steal other peoples money. But Borg doesn't steal anyones money.

So, since Borg can call me a thief and a jackal I think its just fine that I call him a Liar and a fraud.

Edited March 24, 2008 by Peter F

normanchateau · March 24, 2008

Does anyone actualy wanna debate anything?

Yes, but we await a meeting of the minds on exactly what we want to debate. For example, you might have noticed that none of the Conservative supporters want to debate that their beloved government, while professing fiscal conservatism, has in fact increased spending by more than any government in the history of Canada:

http://andrewcoyne.com/columns/2007/03/fla...ig-spenders.php

Yet paradoxically, some Conservative supporters are happy to attack the NDP for being a big-spending political party. Perhaps the paradox can be explained by what the money is spent on. It appears that the NDP wants to spend money on those it perceives as being in need. The Conservative government wants to transfer billions from the rest of Canada to Quebec, as they did in the 2007 budget, in order to win a majority. Squandering billions on Quebec to buy votes is considered good government. Squandering money on those in need is socialism and therefore bad government.

eyeball · March 24, 2008

Squandering money on those in need is socialism and therefore bad government.

Unless its squandered on someone like Bear Stearns, then its called sound public policy.

M.Dancer · March 24, 2008

Unless its squandered on someone like Bear Stearns, then its called sound public policy.

You would prefer the market collapse or an investment that will pay back?

JPMorgan now will bear the risk of the first $1 billion of losses if Bear Stearns' assets go bad. The Federal Reserve Bank of New York will cover the risk for the remaining $29 billion, instead of being on the hook for all of the first $30 billion in losses, as was originally announced March 16.
To do this, the New York Fed will take control of $30 billion of Bear Stearns' assets through a newly-formed limited liability company managed by BlackRock Financial Management. The assets would serve as collateral for $29 billion in financing from the New York Fed at a 2.5% rate. JPMorgan Chase will be responsible for the first $1 billion of losses in the portfolio, while the New York Fed would keep any gains.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/24/news/compa...sion=2008032414