Assimilation vs. Integration

[Leafless]

I'm trying to figure out your geography - the US is to the west of us? We are sandwiched between 2 oceans - which one are you discarding, the Atlantic, the Pacific, or the Arctic? And are you claiming that, because we are east (?) of the US, we need to mirror their culture - we can't carve out a culture all our own?

The post has been edited.

Relating to carving our own culture makes no sense as we always did have our own culture.

Don't ever try to say Canada has no culture as we are one of the most advanced primarily English speaking, Christian civilizations on earth.

Being proud of the history of our country doesn't mean clinging to the past.

Unfortunately, it does, as a land mass without a chronological record of important events, Canada would not qualify as a country, being just a space filled with people.

I realize this is your dream, Canada being a vast empty area, waiting to be taking over by homeless foreign immigrants, to establish their cultures and make it their newly discovered home.

Edited March 19, 2008 by Leafless

[Leafless]

You seem confused about what an anglophone is and what an anglo saxon is.

You just seem to be confused, period, you poor little troubled troll.

[guyser]

Don't ever try to say Canada has no culture as we are one of the most advanced primarily English speaking, Christian civilizations on earth.

Our culture is as a banana republic isnt it?

I realize this is your dream, Canada being a vast empty area, .

Not a dream, but the truth.

[Leafless]

Our culture is as a banana republic isnt it?

Relating to the dysfunctional nature of our federal government, a conditon the Liberal party of Canada has created and one outside of a revolution, the poor Conservatives have to tolerate, YES.

[jazzer]

Relating to the dysfunctional nature of our federal government, a conditon the Liberal party of Canada has created and one outside of a revolution, the poor Conservatives have to tolerate, YES.

Well, the cons are in power now, let them scrap Mulroney's muliticulturalism act.

[guyser]

Relating to the dysfunctional nature of our federal government, a conditon the Liberal party of Canada has created and one outside of a revolution, the poor Conservatives have to tolerate, YES.

Well , which is it then. Above or below...?

(Leafless @ Mar 19 2008, 09:09 AM)

Don't ever try to say Canada has no culture as we are one of the most advanced primarily English speaking, Christian civilizations on earth.

[Argus]

You're not realistic at all....

native genocide, with more than 50,000 dead missing children's blood on the hands of government and churches; Japanese internment during WWII, stealing their land and livelihood because of racial fear; stealing the Dionne quintuplets and putting them on public display for profit; land rape and pollutionthat makes the Love Canal look like a small oil spill compared to us; the boys of St John who became the sexual playthings of perverted priests....these are the historical legacy of Canada, the Canadian government and its people. And these not isolated either since they could as easily happen today as they did in the last 100 years IF the perpetrators believed they wouldn't be caught....

There are no nations or peoples without blemishes in their past. None. And almost all are worse than ours.

There are lots of reasons for not wanting to assimilate into Canadian society.

If you don't want to assimilate into Canadian society you should not be allowed to immigrate here. Period.

The first and most important is that there really is no such thing as "Canadian culture".

I've been here quite a while now, grew up here, in fact. There most certainly is a Canadian culture. Culture is the shared history and values of people who grew up together. To suggest Canada had no shared set of values and beliefs prior to massive, open-door immigration, is ludicrous. It might be heavily watered down now by the millions of foreigners squatting in our major cities, but it still exists.

Second is that Canadians are generally speaking very lazy and inept people.

Would you say the same of, say, Arabs. What have they built for themselves in their countries? Nothing. In fact, what other group has built more in their homelands than we have? And if they had actually managed to build a successful society why are they all trying to claw their way out of it and over to ours?

Third the country wasn't built by WASPs but it was uncovered, cleared and built by immigrants. The WASPs came along after and stole if from them by hook or by crook.

I doubt you even know what a "wasp" is. You clearly know zero about Canada's history. Which is unsurprising as you clearly don't have much liking for Canada or Canadians.

Which again, is not very surprising in the pro-immigrant crowd.

Most immigrant cultures are what make Canada unique and attractive.

And yet, what did those cultures produce in their homelands? Miserable, poverty stricken shitholes filled with desperate teaming masses of people eager to get out and come - uh, here, to this place built by those lazy "wasps" you dislike so much.

[Leafless]

Well , which is it then. Above or below...?

Canada WAS an advanced, civilized nation long before 1982 and components of Canadian culture have continued to advance, despite the Liberals socially destructive totalitarian stranglehold. This is relating to certain major aspects involving cultural advancement that has thrown us back to the Nazi era.

[M.Dancer]

Godwin's law now in effect....

[guyser]

Canada WAS an advanced, civilized nation long before 1982 and components of Canadian culture have continued to advance, despite the Liberals socially destructive totalitarian stranglehold. This is relating to certain major aspects involving cultural advancement that has thrown us back to the Nazi era.

Again, make up your mind....you say "WAS" above, but earlier you said...

Don't ever try to say Canada has no culture as we are one of the most advanced primarily English speaking, Christian civilizations on earth

I see you said "...culture as we are on of the most ......"

But then again, Dancer is right.

Godwins law. Thread closed. Nothing to see here anymore,move along.

[DangerMouse]

Canada WAS an advanced, civilized nation long before 1982 and components of Canadian culture have continued to advance, despite the Liberals socially destructive totalitarian stranglehold. This is relating to certain major aspects involving cultural advancement that has thrown us back to the Nazi era.

Advanced? Civilized? The last Residential Schools closed in the 1970s--the last of the cultural genocide...not very long ago. I find it interesting how some conveniently forget about all the atocities committed against aboriginal people in the building of this nation. How do you define Canadian Culture while factoring in aboriginal people, newfies, dutchmen, rednecks, Don Cherry, Hockey Night in Canada, or, is it singing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame?" Why is it when recreationalists throw spears or use bows and arrows, canoe, kayak etc it's called sports, and an aboriginal person who uses modern technology is called assimilated? I'd be curious to hear your definition? It wasn't very long ago since the first boats from Europe arrived here....were they autmotically Canadian as soon as they stepped off the boats or, were they assimilated Canadians from Britain or France?

[Leafless]

Again, make up your mind....you say "WAS" above, but earlier you said...

I see you said "...culture as we are on of the most ......"

Canada WAS an advanced, civilized nation long before 1982 and components of Canadian culture have continued to advance, despite the Liberals socially destructive totalitarian stranglehold.

'Was' referring to the past and 'ARE' referring to the present should not be difficult to understand unless your name happens to be 'guyser'.

But then again, Dancer is right.

Godwins law. Thread closed. Nothing to see here anymore,move along.

In this particular case Godwin's Law is not applicable, as the comparison is accurate and is within a reasonable historical time frame and even the U.N. agrees with it. There is nothing in modern times to compare it to other than the most recent oppressive style Nazi rule.

A single point in matter, what other government in a civilized society (in the world) allows language police to check out the lettering on commercial signs to ensure it is within the standards of that oppressive societies twisted legislation?

[Leafless]

Why is it when recreationalists throw spears or use bows and arrows, canoe, kayak etc it's called sports, and an aboriginal person who uses modern technology is called assimilated? I'd be curious to hear your definition?

Firstly, one must understand the definition of 'assimilate' before we can into specifics.

It wasn't very long ago since the first boats from Europe arrived here....were they autmotically Canadian as soon as they stepped off the boats or, were they assimilated Canadians from Britain or France?

They were simply explorers, representing their country of origin.

There was NO society with the mechanisms necessary to assimilate anyone.

[guyser]

'Was' referring to the past and 'ARE' referring to

Yes well, we have seen this mistake numerous times. I know I know it s a great country but a banana republic.

In this particular case Godwin's Law is not applicable, as the comparison is accurate and is within a reasonable historical time frame and even the U.N. agrees with it. There is nothing in modern times to compare it to other than the most recent oppressive style Nazi rule.

I am not so sure you get to make up the rules re: Godwin's Law. Well in fact you dont. Kaputski on that one too.

But it is a great country....but a great country with Nazi overtones. Wonderbar !

A single point in matter, what other government in a civilized society (in the world) allows language police to check out the lettering on commercial signs to ensure it is within the standards of that oppressive societies twisted legislation?

Sneaky bugger, I see what you did.

You left out a part. Let me rephrase it to narrowly define the question even further which will then render any answer wrong ..ok?

REVISED

What other government in a civilized society allows language police to check lettering on commercial signs whilst wearing purple velour track suits and standing on one leg while the other is dangling out front to ensure it is within the standards of that oppressive (snicker) societies twisted legislation?

Answer? None. They could not get purple velour track suits.

But are there other countries with language laws similar to Quebecs? Similar yes, Latvia and Estonia. Wales comes to mind too.

The Europeans signed one too, but it seems more limited .

Edited March 20, 2008 by guyser

[Leafless]

Yes well, we have seen this mistake numerous times. I know I know it s a great country but a banana republic.

Please post your reponse why you think the Liberal government is not a dictatorial government and why Canada can't be viewed as a banana republic.

'BANANA REPUBLIC'

In modern usage the term has come to be used to describe a generally unstable or "backward" dictatorial regime, especially one where elections are often fraudulent and corruption is rife. By extension, the word is occasionally applied to governments where a strong leader hands out appointments and advantages to friends and supporters, without much consideration for the law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic

I am not so sure you get to make up the rules re: Godwin's Law. Well in fact you dont. Kaputski on that one too.

I know what Godwin's Law is. But I don't think you do.

Please post your response why you think I don't know what godwin's law is?

But are there other countries with language laws similar to Quebecs? Similar yes, Latvia and Estonia. Wales comes to mind too.

Please post what these other countries language laws are compared to what language laws our federal government allows here in Canada.

The Europeans signed one too, but it seems more limited .

Please post what the Europeans signed and we will judge for ourselves just how oppressive these laws are compared to Canada.

[Melanie_]

The post has been edited.

Relating to carving our own culture makes no sense as we always did have our own culture.

Don't ever try to say Canada has no culture as we are one of the most advanced primarily English speaking, Christian civilizations on earth.

Unfortunately, it does, as a land mass without a chronological record of important events, Canada would not qualify as a country, being just a space filled with people.

I realize this is your dream, Canada being a vast empty area, waiting to be taking over by homeless foreign immigrants, to establish their cultures and make it their newly discovered home.

My post didn't say Canada doesn't have a culture, it said that Canada's culture does not have to mirror the US culture. We can make our own. Culture isn't static, it is constantly changing, which is why we can learn from history without clinging to it. I've never believed that traditions have to be preserved just for tradition's sake; culture is much more fluid than that. We can absorb immigrants and blend the good parts of the different cultures they bring with the good parts of the culture already in place. I know you don't believe this, but you don't have to be white to be Canadian.

[charter.rights]

My post didn't say Canada doesn't have a culture, it said that Canada's culture does not have to mirror the US culture. We can make our own. Culture isn't static, it is constantly changing, which is why we can learn from history without clinging to it. I've never believed that traditions have to be preserved just for tradition's sake; culture is much more fluid than that. We can absorb immigrants and blend the good parts of the different cultures they bring with the good parts of the culture already in place. I know you don't believe this, but you don't have to be white to be Canadian.

Wrong!

Culture is static. Traditions change but culture is the same.

There is no such thing as "Canadian culture" independent from adoptive cultures. There is Quebequois culture. A Native culture. Even a Metis culture. But there is no such thing as a distinct "Canadian culture.

And no you cannot take other cultures, blend them together and then call it Canadian culture. It is just that simple.

[guyser]

Please post your reponse why you think the Liberal government is not a dictatorial government and why Canada can't be viewed as a banana republic.

'BANANA REPUBLIC'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic

Sure why not ?

Heck lets use your definition that you supplied shall we. (dont know why you asked and then answered but why spoil the fun.) My answers in Italics.

Oh but before we get to it....Liberal government? Are they in power again? Anyhow, lets forget about that for a moment.........

QUOTE

In modern usage the term has come to be used to describe a generally unstable or "backward" dictatorial regime,Nope -not in Canada

-especially one where elections are often fraudulent and corruption is rife. Nope -not in Canada

By extension, the word is occasionally applied to governments where a strong leader hands out appointments and advantages to friends and supporters, without much consideration for the law.

Nope-not in Canada, they were all legal appointments

Damn, three out of three . I bat 1.000 .

So there it is. Not a Banana Republic. But I can tell you where to find one......coming soon to a mall nearest you. Pricey, but a nice selection. Get the cruise wear.

I know what Godwin's Law is. But I don't think you do.

This is like T ball. You set 'em up and I knock ;em out of the park. Ok , I am at bat again....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a caution against the use of inflammatory rhetoric or exaggerated comparisons, and is often conflated with fallacious arguments of the reductio ad Hitlerum form.

For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress

Damn, another home run. At least I am not making you run out fly balls. Saves your breath.

Please post your response why you think I don't know what godwin's law is?

Because you used it to describe Canada , or relating to Canadian governmental actions. IOW, not needed, fallacious use.....Need more?

Please post what these other countries language laws are compared to what language laws our federal government allows here in Canada.

Please post what the Europeans signed and we will judge for ourselves just how oppressive these laws are compared to Canada.

You asked a question without knowing the answer. You made the statement, not me.

Dont forget the velour tracksuit.

Edited March 21, 2008 by guyser

[Leafless]

My post didn't say Canada doesn't have a culture, it said that Canada's culture does not have to mirror the US culture. We can make our own. Culture isn't static, it is constantly changing, which is why we can learn from history without clinging to it. I've never believed that traditions have to be preserved just for tradition's sake; culture is much more fluid than that. We can absorb immigrants and blend the good parts of the different cultures they bring with the good parts of the culture already in place. I know you don't believe this, but you don't have to be white to be Canadian.

Both U.S. and Canadian cultures are basically derived from the same mother country Britain.

Our culture APPEARS to mirrors U.S. culture because both countries pursue the same interest that relate to being an advanced civilization.

Of course the U.S. leads as an advanced civilization due to their larger population and other resources.

The only immigrants that can help Canada IMO, are those from a similar advanced culture.

Why do we need other countries meaningless traditons here in Canada?

[Leafless]

You asked a question without knowing the answer. You made the statement, not me.

You made the reply citing several countries without the specifics.

Where are they?

BTW.. no doubt Godwin's Law was invented by an inferior socialist who did not appreciate his ideologies being compared to the Nazis.

And also relating to the Liberals....abusing legislative authority (LEGAL) is what makes this country a BANANA REPUBLIC.

[Rue]

Leafless you know I am on the other side of this debate. However I most certainly notice in this set of posts, you made a point to present your views without being disparaging to other cultures. In so doing I think it makes you credible. Just because I disgree with you does not mean I can not hear and respect your opinion and I can precisely because you chose this time to avoid anything disparaging.

I think whatever side of the arguement we are on, we all know, that for any nation including Canada to exist, we must have some sort of common unified vision. That I think we all agree on.

So just what is that common vision? Me personally I believe 1/4 of it is aboriginal, 1/4 Frenh, 1/4 Anglo-Saxon British, and the other 1/4 a mix of all kinds of things raning from Sikh, Chinese, Jewish, Irish, Italian, etc., etc.

I think the identity is emerging slowly. I think it is a mistake to think the Canadian identity is not already Aboriginal-English-French. The three may clash and collide, but they have managed to co-exist in our nation and willl be the backbone of our vision which then can enable that remaining 1/4 other ingredients to mix in.

Leafless I do not disagree with you in the sense that a country can't be build if people do not assimilate to some sort of degree. To think we can all come to a country and not be unified and remain islated from one another does not build a nation if that is your point.

All my point is assimilation can happen in a healthy, gradual manner although again I am sure we all agree no there are just certain values we can not compromise on, and either we all agree to follow them or being a citizen is not possible, i.e.., this notion you can be a Canadian citizen but ignore those laws you don't like, to me is bullshit. I also think this notion you are a Canadian citizen but are more loyal to another nation first, is also bullshit. That is just me personally.

If someone asks me as a Jew, would you choose Canada or Israel, the answer without hesitation is Canada. If I can't say that, then with due respect to me, I should not live here.

I would think most minorities like me feel the same way regardless of our other ethnic or cultural or religious beliefs. We put Canada first, and so in that respect, Leafless there is no disagreement.

Where the real discussion is-or debate, is in how we assimilate.

I for one believe the British parliamentary system is a necessary ingredient of this nation tokeep it glued together. I personally would not be interested in an American style democratic electoral process.

As for religions, I personally believe they should be seperated from the state apperatus or school apperatus.

I believe all social institutions should remain neutral to all religions.

However that said, on a purely one on one level, I think it is absurd trying to get rid of Christmas references or freaking out over the Lord's prayer or people who put mayonaisse on bagels.

I strongly believe however all Canadians should be taught Gary Gettman is evil and is a demon.

[Leafless]

Wrong!

Culture is static. Traditions change but culture is the same.

Traditions are a component of culture.

There is no such thing as "Canadian culture" independent from adoptive cultures. There is Quebequois culture. A Native culture. Even a Metis culture.

IOW Canadians are dummies.

It seems the dummies have advanced tremendously leaving behind the dormant Quebecois, Native and Metis culture.

Yup, rubbing two sticks of wood together to light a fire is a sure win formula for cultural advancement or poutine for inducing heart attacks.

And no you cannot take other cultures, blend them together and then call it Canadian culture. It is just that simple.

And why can't you?

Relating to a society, culture is derived COLLECTIVELY relating to human achievment and advancement.

It seems you want to divide on the basis of culture.

[Leafless]

So just what is that common vision? Me personally I believe 1/4 of it is aboriginal, 1/4 Frenh, 1/4 Anglo-Saxon British, and the other 1/4 a mix of all kinds of things raning from Sikh, Chinese, Jewish, Irish, Italian, etc., etc.

I think the identity is emerging slowly. I think it is a mistake to think the Canadian identity is not already Aboriginal-English-French. The three may clash and collide, but they have managed to co-exist in our nation and willl be the backbone of our vision which then can enable that remaining 1/4 other ingredients to mix in.

I agree with you Rue.

But then is it not the invention of equality rights, that that ignites racial/cultural fires and is the source of cultural animosity and divisiveness?

[charter.rights]

Traditions are a component of culture.

IOW Canadians are dummies.

It seems the dummies have advanced tremendously leaving behind the dormant Quebecois, Native and Metis culture.

Yup, rubbing two sticks of wood together to light a fire is a sure win formula for cultural advancement or poutine for inducing heart attacks.

And why can't you?

Relating to a society, culture is derived COLLECTIVELY relating to human achievment and advancement.

It seems you want to divide on the basis of culture.

Sure traditions are a component of culture. But traditions alone do not change culture and they evolve with the people while still remaining connected to the culture.

Human achievement and advancement are not the same thing as culture. Culture for the most part is intrinsically linked to language and region. It is often linked through regional world view. In order to distinguish culture from everything else there will be icons and rites that are associated with the culture. And language, historically supports those rites.

Trying to say that rubbing two sticks together or eating poutine define culture is like saying that European culture involves ritual shit-eating and piss drinking because they once used to throw their human waste into the streets and water sources... The point is that cultural identity has nothing to do with historical practices. Hence "traditions" evolve with those observing the cultural politic.

[HisSelf]

Trying to say that rubbing two sticks together or eating poutine define culture is like saying that European culture involves ritual shit-eating and piss drinking because they once used to throw their human waste into the streets and water sources...

The equation of poutine with feces is compelling on a physiological level but I think that the risk of eating the occasional poutine is nowhere near the risk of eating the occasional morsel of shit, no matter how much piss you manage to sprinkle it with. But good luck with that line of thought. No doubt if you advertise it enough, you'll be able to sell it to sometbody.