Dion inciting Ontario Revolution?

[Slim MacSquinty]

Today's Toronto Star Article: http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/326411

"The finance minister is in a vendetta against a province (that) represents 40 per cent of the Canadian population and economy," Dion told the Star. "If it was happening in Quebec, we would have a revolution in Quebec against this government. The reaction would be everywhere."

Harper, who was in Toronto yesterday to give a speech to the Economic Club, continued to criticize the economic policies of the provincial Liberal government without ever mentioning Ontario or Premier Dalton McGuinty.

Harper blasted his political rivals for suggesting "that every problem demands an immediate response, an immediate, short-term, high-cost intervention or subsidization."

That was a veiled swipe at McGuinty's call for Ottawa to match the province's $1.15 Next Generation of Jobs Fund to encourage manufacturers to keep and create work in Ontario.

Harper urged provincial governments to eliminate capital taxes, lower corporate taxes and harmonize their sales taxes with the GST and singled out British Columbia, Manitoba and Prince Edward Island for praise, pointedly leaving out Ontario.

What a stupid thing for the guy who wants to be Prime Minister to say, and left media keeps reporting on how smart he is and how he isn't partisan, what BS.

First this article demonstrates extreme partisanship, he has to know that Harper and Flaherty are right on this one, however being a Liberal he has to a) support McGuinty (who is dead wrong) and advocate giving away my tax dollars to uncompetitive industries to gain votes.

This is the perfect example of why this guy should never be Prime Minister, someone should tell him that Ontario, at one time, was the economic engine of the Country, but a lack of progress in productivity and a lack of capital investment is driving business away. Throwing money at unproductive business is not the long term answer, encouraging investment in greater productivity is the solution, unless we all want to work a Tim Horton's eventually.

This guy is dangerous, he is arrogant, lacks a comprehensive understanding of the economy and perhaps the country itself and the more he talks the more I fear his socialist hidden agenda.

[MontyBurns]

Screw you Dion! No way are we going back to being the gayest country in the universe next to Sweden.

[Leafless]

This guy is dangerous, he is arrogant, lacks a comprehensive understanding of the economy and perhaps the country itself and the more he talks the more I fear his socialist hidden agenda.

This is one area Dion knows what he is talking about.

Quebec was built by fear mongering and he is simply advocating Ontario do the same.

And the left says Harper is scary.

Edited March 8, 2008 by Leafless

[eyeball]

Actually the left says Harper and Dion are both scary. Canada is obviously being ruled by a right-wing coalition. Conservative ideals are being advanced on just about every front now that the Liberals have decided to enable them.

Recall that the Liberals campiagn like the NDP but rule like Conservatives.

The right-wing isn't a place, its a direction on a journey that is forever just getting underway.

[kengs333]

Actually the left says Harper and Dion are both scary. Canada is obviously being ruled by a right-wing coalition. Conservative ideals are being advanced on just about every front now that the Liberals have decided to enable them.

Recall that the Liberals campiagn like the NDP but rule like Conservatives.

The right-wing isn't a place, its a direction on a journey that is forever just getting underway.

The country is always governed by the "right-wing" because the "left-wing" is hopelessly detached from reality and incapable of governing properly. True governance requires a government to realistically address the issues that are important to the country's citizens, and so far "the left" has only managed to do so on occasion on the provincial level, and not with much success. When one looks at the ideological quagmire that the federal NDP has become, and the fact that the Greens are starting to go down the same road now that they are gaining prominance, it looks as though the "right-wing" status quo is basically going to be the reality ad infinitum.

[Leafless]

Actually the left says Harper and Dion are both scary. Canada is obviously being ruled by a right-wing coalition. Conservative ideals are being advanced on just about every front now that the Liberals have decided to enable them.

Recall that the Liberals campiagn like the NDP but rule like Conservatives.

So, official multiculturalism and official bilingualism are Conservative ideologies?

Harper is no longer scary since he promotes Liberal sentiments and programs especially relating to Quebec.

If moving to the left is considered right, then this reinforces my notion that Canadian politics is hopelessly dysfunctional.

[eyeball]

As the media tilt rightward, so will the country

LAWRENCE MARTIN

It's not often you'll find Prime Minister Stephen Harper at a media bash. But there he was the other night pumping hands at an Ottawa fete celebrating the expansion of the CanWest Global news organization. CanWest, the conservative news chain (and the country's largest media company) was officially launching a national news service to compete with Canadian Press and inaugurating its Global National newscasts out of the capital.

I don't know if you saw this op-ed but Martin has written a few lately along the same lines that describe one aspect of Canada's increasing rightwardness. I realize most people around here probably still think the media is dominated by the left but...follow the money. Follow the money that also funds the several conservative think-tanks that have sprung up in Canada. The country is being pushed rightward as much as its being led there.

So, official multiculturalism and official bilingualism are Conservative ideologies?

Nope, the first is a Canadian value and the second is mostly a political expediancy which you seem to recognize.

Harper is no longer scary since he promotes Liberal sentiments and programs especially relating to Quebec.

If moving to the left is considered right, then this reinforces my notion that Canadian politics is hopelessly dysfunctional.

Canadian politics are dysfunctional because they're hopelessly corrupt. Movement one way or another has more to do with the direction the wind is said to be blowing that day, usually by the media and think-tanks and so on.

[normanchateau]

Harper is no longer scary since he promotes Liberal sentiments and programs...

Yes, he promotes some of them but on others, he takes a socially conservative position resembling the failed policies of George Bush. For example, while the Paul Martin government introduced a bill to decriminalize possession of small quantities of marijuana, Harper has now introduced legislation resulting in MANDATORY jail terms of six months for growing as little as a one marijuana plant and selling it. Harper has also promised not to reintroduce the Liberal legislation even though it results in potential jail time and permanent criminal records for young people possessing as little as one gram of marijuana. The NDP has advocated outright legalization but Harper finds even decriminalization totally unacceptable.

Per capita, the US jails more people for drug-related crimes than any country in the world yet their drug problem remains far greater than Canada's. Why is Harper following the discredited Bush policies? And if he's following these policies now, how extreme would they be if he ever obtained a majority?

How many Canadians share Harper's view, and that of his socon supporters, that jail time is an appropriate penalty for possession of a small quantity of marijuana? Those that do share his views of course don't find him scary.

[eyeball]

the Paul Martin government introduced a bill to decriminalize possession of small quantities of marijuana

Did they actually introduce it? I thought they only talked about it, like just about everything else they promised us.

What really makes the Liberals so scary is how expedient it was for them to roll over and expose millions of Canadians to the vindictive rightousness of the Conservatives.

The Liberals deserve nothing but our contempt.

[JaysFan]

What a stupid thing for the guy who wants to be Prime Minister to say, and left media keeps reporting on how smart he is and how he isn't partisan, what BS.

I wouldn't call it stupid at all. What Dion said is exactly how a large number of Ontarians feel about the way this province is being treated by Harper's government.

I'd say he was smart enough to recognise that there is a very real, honest and rapidly increasing hatred towards the Harper government for their catering to Alberta and Quebec's whims while doing their best to screw Ontario over.

Leftist media?

You mean like the right leaning, Conservative supporting Toronto Sun's Christina Blizzard who essentially said the very same thing.

First this article demonstrates extreme partisanship, he has to know that Harper and Flaherty are right on this one, however being a Liberal he has to a) support McGuinty (who is dead wrong) and advocate giving away my tax dollars to uncompetitive industries to gain votes.

Right because handing out my tax dollars to monopolies like the oil patch is so much different. Or handing out my tax dollars to buy votes in Quebec like Harper has quietly been doing.

Tory ridings in Quebec getting more handouts

Andrew Mayeda , Canwest News Service

Published: Sunday, March 09, 2008

OTTAWA -- The Harper government has been channelling a disproportionate amount of economic development money in Quebec into Conservative-held ridings, a Canwest News Service analysis has found.

Canada Economic Development for Quebec Regions has a mandate to promote "long-term economic development" in Quebec by issuing grants and loans to businesses, non-profit organizations and communities. According to the agency's governing legislation, it is supposed to give special attention to regions where "slow economic growth is prevalent or where opportunities for productive employment are inadequate."

Since Feb. 6, 2006, when the minority Conservative government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper took power, through the end of September 2007, the agency has funded more than 1,200 projects worth nearly half a billion dollars.

Damn those leftist media types at the Conservative supporting Canwest media group eh?

Flaherty's quickly becoming public enemy number one around Ontario. I mean it's not bad enough that he left Ontario's provincial coffers $5.6 billion in defecit and lied about it when he held that Finance minister posting provincially, no, no, now he's doing his best to drive business out of the province too.

This is the perfect example of why this guy should never be Prime Minister, someone should tell him that Ontario, at one time, was the economic engine of the Country, but a lack of progress in productivity and a lack of capital investment is driving business away. Throwing money at unproductive business is not the long term answer, encouraging investment in greater productivity is the solution, unless we all want to work a Tim Horton's eventually.

Actually, if you'd been paying attention the past year or 2 you'd know that the main reason is that the rise of the petro-charged loonie against the U.S. greenback is the reason why.

Alberta is the only province benefiting from that and Harper's loving it. It meets his firewall'd idea of what Canada should look like perfectly.

This guy is dangerous, he is arrogant, lacks a comprehensive understanding of the economy and perhaps the country itself and the more he talks the more I fear his socialist fascist hidden agenda.

Amazing how if you replace one word, your comments describe Harper to a tee.

Oh, greetings all.

[Argus]

I wouldn't call it stupid at all. What Dion said is exactly how a large number of Ontarians feel about the way this province is being treated by Harper's government.

I'd say he was smart enough to recognise that there is a very real, honest and rapidly increasing hatred towards the Harper government for their catering to Alberta and Quebec's whims while doing their best to screw Ontario over

So what? Ontario has always been everyone's bitch. When the Liberals were in power they spit on Ontario, kicked it in the ass, gave everything to Quebec, and come every election Ontarians would crawl frantically over each other to vote Liberal. Harper is not treating Ontario nearly as badly, btw, and this "catering to Alberta" bullshit has nothing behind it but attempts to divide the country for political purposes. The rubes eat it up because it appeals to their narrow-minded jealousy, and the need to blame others for their problems.

Ontario's problems, btw, is an incompetent, dishonest, high-tax loving provincial government and a high dollar brought about by a corrupt, incompetent administration in the US.

Ontario isn't responsible for the latter, but they have only themselves to blame for the former.

[JaysFan]

So what? Ontario has always been everyone's bitch. When the Liberals were in power they spit on Ontario, kicked it in the ass, gave everything to Quebec, and come every election Ontarians would crawl frantically over each other to vote Liberal.

Spoken like something I'd expect from the mouth of an Albertan.

You're not an Albertan are you Argus?

Harper is not treating Ontario nearly as badly, btw, and this "catering to Alberta" bullshit has nothing behind it but attempts to divide the country for political purposes. The rubes eat it up because it appeals to their narrow-minded jealousy, and the need to blame others for their problems.

What a crock!

Alberta, specifically the oil patch is Canada's largest polluter but who did Harper target primarily with his environmental policies? The auto manufacturing sector of Ontario.

And if you want to discuss dividing the country for political purposes, let's talk about about Harper's divide and conquer modus operandi when it came to disucssing equalization...

Or should we remind people of how Harper is moving to fulfill his promise to better reflect the growing might of Western Canada at the federal level. He proposes to raise the representation of Alberta and British Columbia in the Commons on par with their populations as of the 2011 census.

Ontario, with six new seats, would continue to be under-represented.

And given that Albertans to use your own words "would crawl frantically over each other to vote" and in the past 40 years have voted nothing but Conservative, that's another case of favouritism to the west.

What's the first thing you hear from Albertans when the topic of a NEP (something this country desperately needs) is raised? The threats from them of seperation if it were to proceed...

Of course, with Harper at the helm, that'll never happen. He'll make good and sure Alberta's protected with his firewall.

Ontario's problems, btw, is an incompetent, dishonest, high-tax loving provincial government and a high dollar brought about by a corrupt, incompetent administration in the US.

No, Ontario got rid of the incompetent bunch of liars when it turfed Harris, Eves and Flaherty's worthless carcasses to the curb 2 elections ago. As for the high dollar well on that note we're in agreement as to what the cause for it is and thank you for supporting my case of what the main reason is for Ontario's manufacturing sector struggling.

Ontario isn't responsible for the latter, but they have only themselves to blame for the former.

I'm no fan of Dalton's but I'll take him over the useless twits that came before and ran this province into a $5.6 billion defecit while selling everything off.

[Leafless]

Canadian politics are dysfunctional because they're hopelessly corrupt. Movement one way or another has more to do with the direction the wind is said to be blowing that day, usually by the media and think-tanks and so on.

Canadian politics is hopelessly corrupt and has little to do with the way the wind is blowing or by the think tanks but has to do with conflicting political ideologies focused on the corrupt desires of a minority French culture.

It seems from some of your other posts, you want to further complicate dysfunctional Canadian politics with the addition of conflicting Muslim ideologies.

[jbg]

Screw you Dion! No way are we going back to being the gayest country in the universe next to Sweden.

If he thinks Canada should do that, he should take the government down rather than engaging in what must be a record number of abstentions and absenteeism.

[Topaz]

Harper should look in his own backyard before going into others. IF Harper wanted to help the auto sector, which I don't think he does, he would bring back the Auto Pact and make selling of foreign autos done only if you make them here creating more jobs for Canadians. IF the unemployement stays or gets worse then when the elections comes Harper won't have much support from Ontario EAST to Nfld. IF anyone is trying to divide the country, its Harper.

[Wild Bill]

This is one area Dion knows what he is talking about.

Quebec was built by fear mongering and he is simply advocating Ontario do the same.

And the left says Harper is scary.

Well, I'd agree with you that much of Dion's talk is fear mongering, trying to keep Ontario turned against the Tories. Still, things are rarely black and white. There IS something there for Dion to work on!

I was one of the first Reform members in Ontario. I vividly remember banging my head against the wall over the actions of the Calgary HQ in running campaigns in Ontario. They simply didn't get it! They wanted to run the show from Calgary and seemed to truly believe they understood Ontarioans on a nuts and bolts level. Local people were often pushed aside or ignored.

The best example was the Sheila Copps byelection over her resignation vis the GST. Her riding was right beside mine and I watched virtually ALL the local riding people pushed aside by folks from the West, who were salivating at the thought of defeating "the loud one".

They proceeded to run a national issues campaign in a riding where perhaps a third of the voters were immigrant mamas who couldn't read English newspapers. A riding where local presence was everything and Sheila had been doorknocking for years, speaking French, Italian and a bit of other languages. She was the local girl and Calgary had thrown all their local presence away.

Reform went down in flames, of course. They actually lost much ground from the previous election.

Now most of Harper's movers and shakers are from the West. Sure, they have Clement and Flaherty but their voices seem to be fainter than the others.

Every region is different. Ontario is so large with such a huge population that it actually is made up of several very different regions, those being Northern Ontario. the South West, the 905 area code and Toronto proper. Toronto's demographics are so very different that calls to make the city an actual province are actually understatements. Toronto should be its own planet!

When the writ is dropped Ontario will suddenly receive a great deal of attention, of course. However, it might be too little too late. Ontario is having its economic troubles and we have a federal government that doesn't have much regional perspective. The decision makers look out their kitchen window in the morning and they see the oil patch. Ontario is just a few articles in their morning paper. Their concept of Ontario is to take its manufacturing wealth for granted, a 1980's vision that is not as accurate today. Witness the fall of Northern Telecom and Celestica.

Flaherty's shots at McGuinty seem pointless. He's right that Dalton hasn't been doing the right things. So what? The issue is not why Ontario voted for Dalton. Ask that of John Tory's advisers who were arrogant and ignorant enough to make religious school funding an election issue. To have been unaware of how this issue still resonated amongst Ontario voters after the actions of Bill Davis was a blight on their resumes as fierce as that on those NBC executives in the 60's who cancelled Star Trek. Brainless, simply brainless.

No, the real issue is why should Ontario voters vote for Flaherty's party! Will a Tory vote likely improve the lot of the average Ontario citizen? What is Flaherty's point? We should first dump McGuinty before we have any hope?

With an election apparently so close Harper would do well to get some real "feet on the ground" advice from Ontario. And LISTEN to it! Otherwise he may find himself bragging about getting 5 more seats in Quebec while losing 10 others in Ontario.

[Sean Hayward]

What does Flaherty think he's doing? Do the Conservatives think labelling Ontario as the "last place in Canada to do business" is going to help them win a majority government? They better be getting enough seats in Quebec in the next election to offset the ones they're going to lose in Ontario. Maybe Jim Flaherty thinks he can insult Ontario because he is from Ontario and so its "not as bad" as if he were from somewhere else. Too bad most Ontarians probably don't know that Flaherty is from Ontario.

First of all, it is not the responsibility of the federal government to be dealing with issues such as the decline of local industries. That is, in my opinion, clearly a provincial responsibility. The responsibility of the federal government on the economy is to enforce the economic union, run economic programs that operate uniformly throughout all of Canada (such as employment insurance), and to undertake and co-ordinate economic tasks that would be impossible for any single province to do so alone.

Therefore, acknowledging that these issues are provincial issues, what business has the federal government in interfering with provincial policies in these areas. Respect for the jurisdictions of the constitutional orders of government is a two-way street, and if the Conservatives really mean what they say about allowing the provinces to conduct their own affairs, then what are they doing telling Ontario what to do. Just as the government of Ontario has no business bullying the government of Canada into following certain policies under its jurisdiction, the opposite is also true.

And as for Dion, is he upset that Ontario does not have the same "Canada owes us everything" attitude that Quebec has? Dion seems disappointed that Ontarians are not as petty as Quebeckers. Not that all Quebeckers share that attitude, but I am certain that some do.

[Wild Bill]

What does Flaherty think he's doing? Do the Conservatives think labelling Ontario as the "last place in Canada to do business" is going to help them win a majority government? They better be getting enough seats in Quebec in the next election to offset the ones they're going to lose in Ontario. Maybe Jim Flaherty thinks he can insult Ontario because he is from Ontario and so its "not as bad" as if he were from somewhere else. Too bad most Ontarians probably don't know that Flaherty is from Ontario.

First of all, it is not the responsibility of the federal government to be dealing with issues such as the decline of local industries. That is, in my opinion, clearly a provincial responsibility. The responsibility of the federal government on the economy is to enforce the economic union, run economic programs that operate uniformly throughout all of Canada (such as employment insurance), and to undertake and co-ordinate economic tasks that would be impossible for any single province to do so alone.

Therefore, acknowledging that these issues are provincial issues, what business has the federal government in interfering with provincial policies in these areas. Respect for the jurisdictions of the constitutional orders of government is a two-way street, and if the Conservatives really mean what they say about allowing the provinces to conduct their own affairs, then what are they doing telling Ontario what to do. Just as the government of Ontario has no business bullying the government of Canada into following certain policies under its jurisdiction, the opposite is also true.

And as for Dion, is he upset that Ontario does not have the same "Canada owes us everything" attitude that Quebec has? Dion seems disappointed that Ontarians are not as petty as Quebeckers. Not that all Quebeckers share that attitude, but I am certain that some do.

Ah, but you should consider that while it is true that Dalton is responsible for his province's economy when he does all the wrong things he will never take the blame. If you listen to what he's been saying these past few months Dalton has been blaming the Feds! Dalton is saying our troubles are not from having the highest business taxes anywhere in Canada OR the USA but from contributing too much to Ottawa!

Flaherty has no choice but to challenge Dalton. He's just being very clumsy about it! Dalton's support comes from the big city Toronto-type cities. These areas have had a huge decline in business and jobs for a reason! They've forgotten that money must be created. They believe that if you need more money the next higher level of government is supposed to just give it to them.

It's no use for Flaherty to scold them! That only works when you're preaching to those areas that aren't the problem! He should find a way to influence the 416 voter, not the 905.

If Flaherty does NOT challenge Dalton he loses, plain and simple. The voters will be left with the impression that our troubles come from Flaherty being too cheap with the pork, not that Dalton is a poor pig farmer.

Dalton's supporters are the type of people who think that if you don't have enough power then you should just put more outlets in your house. Or if you don't have enough bread you should open more variety stores.

As I said, Flaherty must deal with them. He needs their support. He's just very clumsy about how he's doing it.

[Topaz]

I think Harper is behind the Finance minister coming out to Ontario as he has. When election time comes, Harper then says, I told Ontario what to do but they didn't listen. Why don't we all wait until the Ontario budget comes down and see what the Libs are going to do.

[Wild Bill]

I think Harper is behind the Finance minister coming out to Ontario as he has. When election time comes, Harper then says, I told Ontario what to do but they didn't listen. Why don't we all wait until the Ontario budget comes down and see what the Libs are going to do.

You say that as if all Dalton's previous budgets didn't indicate anything!

[Sean Hayward]

I agree with you on most points, Wild Bill. One thing I was trying to get across with that last post but maybe didn't emphasize enough was that both of them (Flaherty and McGuinty) should stop trying to tell each other what to do. McGuinty says: "The federal government should provide support (through transfers and direct aid) to Ontario to help us with our economic issues". Flaherty says: "The provincial government should reduce taxes and become more competitive to resolve these issues". They both need to accept that this is a provincial problem with a provincial solution, stop blaming each other, and get on with it. Sure the federal government can help, by reducing its own corporate tax rates and making Canada more competitive, but the primary efforts must come from the provincial government.

On the issue of Ontario voters, this is no way for the Conservatives to go about expanding their support. They should consider sending messages such as: "All governments across Canada, federal, provincial and local, should aim to make Canada more competitive in the globalized economy, and some provincial governments (not naming any) should consider reducing business taxes to that end", rather than singling out Ontario and saying very publicly that Ontario's newly elected government doesn't know what it's doing. The way to bring people over to your side is through co-operation and negotiation, not insult and confrontation.

[normanchateau]

Did they actually introduce it? I thought they only talked about it, like just about everything else they promised us.

http://canadaonline.about.com/od/bills/p/mjreform.htm

[Slim MacSquinty]

By my reckoning Dalton has been whining for two years or more about how all that's wrong with Ontario is because of Harper, forgetting of course that it was the Libs who made deep cuts to transfers. The most comical of which when he began lecturing the eager media about his superior knowledge of the economy forgetting of course that Harper is actually an economist.

All the while John Tory, who claims to be a conservative, sounds more like Maude Barlow, so what's Flaherty to do, sure he's a pugnatious Irish boy, but someone has to point out the obvious to pink bellied Ontarioans.

The real evil deal here is Dion piping in with his divisive comments, hardly constructive and well outside his purvue, wouldn't you say?

[jbg]

Flaherty has no choice but to challenge Dalton. He's just being very clumsy about it! Dalton's support comes from the big city Toronto-type cities. These areas have had a huge decline in business and jobs for a reason! They've forgotten that money must be created. They believe that if you need more money the next higher level of government is supposed to just give it to them.

I'm surprised since Ontario's been blessed with the cream of the crop in Premiers: Rae, Eves, McGuinty.

[Keepitsimple]

Flaherty's approach may not be working in the short term but as McGuinty puts Ontario deeper in the hole, voters will remember what he said. Greg Sorbara did not step aside to spend more time with family. He knew that the tax-and-spend philosophy that he initiated could not be sustained - doubly true with the economic storm clouds bearing down on him. John Tory has belatedly picked up the gauntlet and is starting to hammer that point home - although it's harder when you're not in the House.