Who owns a Christian Church?

[charter.rights]

Where I live, in the last 20 or so years there have been 3 or 4 priests as I recall who were accused of abusing children or in one case seducing the wives of the parishioners and having daytime trysts under the guise of bible study.

Everyone of the them was relocated to another diocese. No charges were laid, nor were the police involved UNTIL the mother of one of the kids went to the newspaper to complain how she was being "handled" by the Church when she was promised they would follow up with discipline and charges if they believed they were warranted. The perpetrator had been sent to a posh Toronto Church and is almost seemed he had been given a promotion for being caught.

These are not just isolated cases. They are rampant in the Catholic Church and less so (at least publicly) in the other churches. The Catholic Church not only protects pedophiles but I also know for a fact it hides and protects homosexuals, alcoholics and adulterers.

[Mr.Canada]

Where I live, in the last 20 or so years there have been 3 or 4 priests as I recall who were accused of abusing children or in one case seducing the wives of the parishioners and having daytime trysts under the guise of bible study.

Everyone of the them was relocated to another diocese. No charges were laid, nor were the police involved UNTIL the mother of one of the kids went to the newspaper to complain how she was being "handled" by the Church when she was promised they would follow up with discipline and charges if they believed they were warranted. The perpetrator had been sent to a posh Toronto Church and is almost seemed he had been given a promotion for being caught.

These are not just isolated cases. They are rampant in the Catholic Church and less so (at least publicly) in the other churches. The Catholic Church not only protects pedophiles but I also know for a fact it hides and protects homosexuals, alcoholics and adulterers.

We'll be needing some proof, otherwise your entire post is just hyperbole and needs to be ignored as usual.

[charter.rights]

We'll be needing some proof, otherwise your entire post is just hyperbole and needs to be ignored as usual.

Do as M.Dancer suggested and type in "catholic priest abuse" in google news...

My information comes from confessions of Priests in 12 step program that I have attended. There are lots of them with lots of different problems but all of them as still heading up their Churches.

[ToadBrother]

LOL, this is just absurd an untrue. The Catholic Church has purged itself from the abuse of certain Clergy and have changed the practice of admitting most homosexuals from joining the seminary.

Homosexuality and pedophilia are two different things. HOmosexuals are no more likely to molest children than heterosexuals.

There have no new cases in quite some time.There is much much more abuse at public schools yet I hear no attacks on them to close.

Public schools are run by people who are elected and accountable. The Church is run by a monarch-for-life who is accountable to no one.

But the Church has paid a heavy price, not the least of which is the absolute devestation of any notion that it is a moral authority.

[ToadBrother]

We'll be needing some proof, otherwise your entire post is just hyperbole and needs to be ignored as usual.

The fact that the Church has had to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to settle numerous abuse cases in North America and elsewhere ought to be sufficient.

Not even the Pope is in denial any longer about the evil the Church perpetrated on young children, so why are you?

[WIP]

The fact that the Church has had to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to settle numerous abuse cases in North America and elsewhere ought to be sufficient.

Not even the Pope is in denial any longer about the evil the Church perpetrated on young children, so why are you?

I just hope that the time has past when the Catholic Church hierarchy can play their shell game with priests accused of sexual misconduct. When I was living in Welland 30 years ago, there was a notorious case of a priest who was hustled off to the Yukon by the local diocese when the police came to arrest him. The Ontario Government went to the trouble of trying to extradite him, and when the R.C.M.P. was sent to arrest him in Whitehorse, they were informed by the Church, that the priest had been reassigned to a country in Central America( I can't recall which one now). No church officials were charged with obstruction of justice, and ofcourse, no action was taken against the Mother Church....hopefully, they will never be allowed to flagrantly ignore society's laws again in the future!

[Mr.Canada]

I just hope that the time has past when the Catholic Church hierarchy can play their shell game with priests accused of sexual misconduct. When I was living in Welland 30 years ago, there was a notorious case of a priest who was hustled off to the Yukon by the local diocese when the police came to arrest him. The Ontario Government went to the trouble of trying to extradite him, and when the R.C.M.P. was sent to arrest him in Whitehorse, they were informed by the Church, that the priest had been reassigned to a country in Central America( I can't recall which one now). No church officials were charged with obstruction of justice, and ofcourse, no action was taken against the Mother Church....hopefully, they will never be allowed to flagrantly ignore society's laws again in the future!

I fully agree. As soon as a priest exhibits any abusive behavior he needs to be permanently removed and the complaints need to be treated seriously. Thankfully this is now happening which wasn't the case 30 years ago. The Church isn't clairvoyant it doesn't know who will abuse before it happens, just like the public schools can't know in advance of a teacher who abuses until a teacher abuses and a complaint is filed.

[guyser]

I fully agree.

Now you dont, you support the church. See next paragraph.

As soon as a priest exhibits any abusive behavior he needs to be permanently removed and the complaints need to be treated seriously.

The church sent out a communique that said the diocese' are not to go to the police but to refer it to the church to investigate, and for 10 years they are to shut up.

So no, you do not support outing priests.

[ToadBrother]

I fully agree. As soon as a priest exhibits any abusive behavior he needs to be permanently removed and the complaints need to be treated seriously. Thankfully this is now happening which wasn't the case 30 years ago. The Church isn't clairvoyant it doesn't know who will abuse before it happens, just like the public schools can't know in advance of a teacher who abuses until a teacher abuses and a complaint is filed.

No one is asking any institution or organization to tell the future. What is required is that when a pedophile is discovered (whether it's a priest, a teacher, a cop or whatever), the first thought should not be "How can we prevent a scandal" and the first move should not be "Let's get the guy the hell out of here", it should be "I'm phoning the cops".

If the Church, and every organization that protected pedophiles had done that, then there wouldn't be all these churches and other groups being forced to pay out huge sums of money to victims. It's not about predicting behavior, it's about basic morality.

[Mr.Canada]

No one is asking any institution or organization to tell the future. What is required is that when a pedophile is discovered (whether it's a priest, a teacher, a cop or whatever), the first thought should not be "How can we prevent a scandal" and the first move should not be "Let's get the guy the hell out of here", it should be "I'm phoning the cops".

If the Church, and every organization that protected pedophiles had done that, then there wouldn't be all these churches and other groups being forced to pay out huge sums of money to victims. It's not about predicting behavior, it's about basic morality.

The RCC isn't perfect and has made mistakes. The important thing is that they've learned and are taking measures to protect children. Such as barring blatant homosexuals from becoming priests as the majority of victims were pubescent males.

[ToadBrother]

The RCC isn't perfect and has made mistakes. The important thing is that they've learned and are taking measures to protect children. Such as barring blatant homosexuals from becoming priests as the majority of victims were pubescent males.

Except that homosexuals are not more likely to molest children. In other words, such a move would not make children less likely to be molested by priests. It does, of course, allow the church to further demonstrate how much hatred it still possesses.

[Mr.Canada]

Except that homosexuals are not more likely to molest children. In other words, such a move would not make children less likely to be molested by priests. It does, of course, allow the church to further demonstrate how much hatred it still possesses.

You didn't read what I said. The vast majority of victims are pubescent males 14-17 not exactly children, so the barring of blatant homosexuals is prudent in this sense. The RCC also does intensive psych evaluations to seminary students to screen out any potential offenders that may have slipped through. It isn't perfect but it shows serious steps at the protection of children are happening. Nothing is 100% foolproof. You aren't a member of the RCC so I wouldn't worry too much about it Toad, we'll sort out our own problems without you, somehow we'll make it.

[WIP]

The RCC isn't perfect and has made mistakes. The important thing is that they've learned and are taking measures to protect children. Such as barring blatant homosexuals from becoming priests as the majority of victims were pubescent males.

That will never work unless a special scanning device is invented to discover who is gay and who isn't. The problem with the priests is not that they are gay -- it's that they had to keep their sexual orientation secret all their lives, and the twisted theology that they internalized, did not make them heterosexuals, it only filled them with self-loathing (just like that Ted Haggard guy). Many analysts of religion have noted that role of the priest or minister is mostly that of a social worker, aside from giving weekly sermons. In secular society, these jobs are often filled by women and gay men, since they are viewed as nurturing, feminine roles, when performed by government employees or volunteers. So, when choosing the community social worker for the church community, Catholics and fundamentalist Protestants and Evangelicals, are automatically excluding the very groups in society that they should be recruiting from -- anyone can give the Sunday lecture, it's what the priests or ministers do during the rest of the week that is most important!

Also, the celibacy rule is a loaded gun, and sorry, but I just cannot accept the claim that normal, sexually functioning men can just shut it down and do nothing (not even masturbation) when they enter the seminary.

Real reform would be to open the priesthood to women and men or women regardless of their sexual orientation plus end this ridiculous requirement of celibacy! This idea of denying the flesh drifted into Judea during the time of Jesus from the Buddhist practice of celibacy among their monks and nuns. They have their own sex scandals in places like Thailand and Burma, even though celibacy for most is only seen as a temporary committment, while they are devoted to the monastery. Nevertheless, this attitude that sex is bad, and all fleshly desires have to be overcome to attain spirituality, is something that your church fathers borrowed from the East. This was never an historic value in Israel, and the opposite requirement was demanded of the Temple Priests - they had to be married, family men.

So, we have sexual denial, contempt for the abilities of women, condemnation of the minority attracted to members of their own sex, all rolled into one package, and people are asking why there are so many problems with the priesthood!

[Mr.Canada]

So what's the solution WIP? Banning all religion? Is that the answer?

Yes a religion must be perfect and all its followers must also be perfect or it's a failed religion. This is WIP's position because religion hurt him at some point in his life so all religion is bad.

[ToadBrother]

So what's the solution WIP? Banning all religion? Is that the answer?

Yes a religion must be perfect and all its followers must also be perfect or it's a failed religion. This is WIP's position because religion hurt him at some point in his life so all religion is bad.

Well, I personally don't think all religion is bad. Religion is a human institution like government or mud wrestling. There are good governments and bad governments, and good mud wrestling (involving lightly-clad women) and bad mud wrestling (involving lightly-clad men).

What the Catholic molestation scandal reveals is that the Church, like any organization, frequently puts its own needs above the victims of the conduct of some of its members. It also reveals as a lie the notion that religion creates morality.

Edited January 28, 2009 by ToadBrother

[Mr.Canada]

Well, I personally don't think all religion is bad. Religion is a human institution like government or mud wrestling. There are good governments and bad governments, and good mud wrestling (involving lightly-clad women) and bad mud wrestling (involving lightly-clad men).

What the Catholic molestation scandal reveals is that the Church, like any organization, frequently puts its own needs above the victims of the conduct of some of its members. It also reveals as a lie the notion that religion creates morality.

So all Catholics are immoral because some priests did this? This is what you're insinuating Toad and that just isn't fair. Trust me, if a priest I knew ever did this I would beat them close to death. The only thing I hate more than a rapist is anyone who would hurt a child.

[ToadBrother]

So all Catholics are immoral because some priests did this?

Nope, but the leadership, including the Vatican, sure the hell were. And then when someone tries to throw in my face this concept of what a sacred, moral institution the Church is, I think of all those bishops and arch-bishops covering up the misdeeds of those priests, and how ugly and ultimately human and cowardly it was, and for me, it dispenses with any notion of the Church representing anything divine.

This is what you're insinuating Toad and that just isn't fair. Trust me, if a priest I knew ever did this I would beat them close to death. The only thing I hate more than a rapist is anyone who would hurt a child.

I'd be happy if you just phoned the cops.

[WIP]

So what's the solution WIP? Banning all religion? Is that the answer?

Yes a religion must be perfect and all its followers must also be perfect or it's a failed religion. This is WIP's position because religion hurt him at some point in his life so all religion is bad.

Did I say "ban religion?" I was just offering my view that your Church's priesthood is set up to be dysfunctional. The all male, celibate priesthood has always attracted a fair share of gay men -- many of whom were honest in their intentions, but because of the teachings they believed about their sexual desires, they became ashamed and filled with self-loathing. I've heard of some failed priests declare that they were hoping that the priesthood would remove all their sexual desires, and they wouldn't have to worry about being gay any more. I wonder how many of the sexual offenders started out by trying to live in denial about their sexual orientation to start with.

Allowing priests to get married, and allowing women into the priesthood might not eliminate all chances of impropriety, but it would improve the odds of attracting normal people.

[Chris in KW]

Allowing priests to get married, and allowing women into the priesthood might not eliminate all chances of impropriety, but it would improve the odds of attracting normal people.

Wow, yes. Other than tradition, is there any particular reason why catholic priests have to be celibate? I don't recall seeing anything to that effect in the New Testament...

[Mr.Canada]

Wow, yes. Other than tradition, is there any particular reason why catholic priests have to be celibate? I don't recall seeing anything to that effect in the New Testament...

Priests have to give last rights 4 or 5 times a week and often in the middle of the night...this doesn't fit well with marriage. Priests don't sit around until Sat. and Sunday eating chips. They are often teachers etc.

[Chris in KW]

Priests have to give last rights 4 or 5 times a week and often in the middle of the night...this doesn't fit well with marriage. Priests don't sit around until Sat. and Sunday eating chips. They are often teachers etc.

So anyone who works night shift can't be married? That seems odd.. Also, I know that many teachers are also married.

Any real reasons?

[Smallc]

Wow, yes. Other than tradition, is there any particular reason why catholic priests have to be celibate? I don't recall seeing anything to that effect in the New Testament...

I think it has something to do with devoting your life to God and nothing else.....

[Chris in KW]

I think it has something to do with devoting your life to God and nothing else.....

Yep, that sounds more like a catholic answer.

My point is, I don't remember Jesus saying "and on this rock I will build my church. Oh, and by the way Peter, you can't get married. Sucker!!!"

[WIP]

Priests have to give last rights 4 or 5 times a week and often in the middle of the night...this doesn't fit well with marriage. Priests don't sit around until Sat. and Sunday eating chips. They are often teachers etc.

And that's why I contend that most of the priest's duties are what we generally consider feminine, nurturing roles in society. That may be another reason why a number of gay men are attracted to the priesthood. The same thing happens in Protestant and evangelical churches; how many televangelists have been outed over the years, and how many are constantly the subject of gay rumours?

It's not that straight men can't fill these roles, but on a numbers basis, I would argue that more women than men can effectively fill that role of ministering to the dying and bereaved families left behind.

[Mr.Canada]

And that's why I contend that most of the priest's duties are what we generally consider feminine, nurturing roles in society. That may be another reason why a number of gay men are attracted to the priesthood. The same thing happens in Protestant and evangelical churches; how many televangelists have been outed over the years, and how many are constantly the subject of gay rumours?

It's not that straight men can't fill these roles, but on a numbers basis, I would argue that more women than men can effectively fill that role of ministering to the dying and bereaved families left behind.

Says the atheist.