Ontario Seeks "More Diverse" Prayer

kengs333 · February 19, 2008

The word "ALL"....
Should that have not given you a clue? ALL meaning every single religion that vilifies others... that'd be pretty much ALL of them.

Do I need to link a definition of "ALL" for you?

No, I'm asking you what your opinions are about Judaism, meaning that I would be interested in hearing what issues you specifically have with Judaism. You're posting as though I had asked "what about Judaism?" which is not what I did at ALL. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Drea · February 19, 2008

My opinion of Judaism is the same as my opinion of Christianity which is the same as my opinion of Islam which is the same as my opinion of Hinduism which is the same as my opinion of Sihkism which is the same as my opinion on Scientology.

ALL of them are unproveable to the point of absurdity.

But you just want to whine that your specific absurdity is under attack.

And what MDancer said...

Yes I will continue to "attack", as you put it, your religion.

Anything that touts itself as invisible, allknowing, allpowerful, omnipotent SHOULD be scrutinized IMO.

By the way, I can prove gravity exists even though we cannot see it... Duh -- now that's a silly argument -- "but you can't see gravity!". You can see what gravity does -- that is you can see it's effect every time you pour a glass of water.

You can't see air either but you can see what it's effect when it moves (wind bending trees, etc).

Edited February 19, 2008 by Drea

Melanie_ · February 20, 2008

Actually, God sent Jesus to clarify this issue. God is the one true God because God is the only god out there, so it's not arrogance, rather simply a statement of fact.
What God expects of us is outlined in the New Testament. So again, it's not arrogance, rather simply the reality of the situation.

:rolleyes: Oh, Jesus clarified the issue. Right. .... tell that to all the different factions of Christianity, each with their own interpretation of the New Testament, each seeing the Old Testament in a different light.

Look, if you want to believe in Jesus, God, etc, feel free. I have no desire to interfere with your freedom of religion (although I reserve the right to point out it's inconsistencies, contradictions, and illogic when you insist on bringing it up). But I object strongly to you interfering with my freedom of religion, or rather my freedom from religion. Religion has no place in the secular institutions of our society.

Borg · February 20, 2008

My opinion of Judaism is the same as my opinion of Christianity which is the same as my opinion of Islam which is the same as my opinion of Hinduism which is the same as my opinion of Sihkism which is the same as my opinion on Scientology.
ALL of them are unproveable to the point of absurdity.

But you just want to whine that your specific absurdity is under attack.

And what MDancer said...

Yes I will continue to "attack", as you put it, your religion.

Anything that touts itself as invisible, allknowing, allpowerful, omnipotent SHOULD be scrutinized IMO.

By the way, I can prove gravity exists even though we cannot see it... Duh -- now that's a silly argument -- "but you can't see gravity!". You can see what gravity does -- that is you can see it's effect every time you pour a glass of water.

You can't see air either but you can see what it's effect when it moves (wind bending trees, etc).

This man deserved far more bit of respect than you do.

He never once trashed MY belief.

He never pushed his upon me.

He would never have considered it.

You make every effort to do so - at all cost - no matter the religion or belief. You yourself have stated this to be so.

You would do this despite the fact that millions find comfort in their beliefs? Why would you do this?

Is it your purpose in life to cause them pain?

Do you find pleasure in this?

You talk of gravity and the fact we can prove it through its affects.

I certainly have never and would never consider your thoughts and beliefs absurd.

However ......

I can see the EFFECT your belief has had upon you.

You can prove gravity - I can prove Drea has hatred in her heart.

It fills you with hatred - you believe you must attack - at all cost.

You do this and lessen it by calling it scrutiny - yet you mock anyone who believes - simply because they have no proof.

No matter your belief - I feel sorry for you. Pity in fact. You are hard.

You believe you have to attack anyone who does not think or believe as you.

In fact that scares me as it would any person who is sane.

There have been people in history that were like you - only they had more power - perhaps it is good that you do not.

It must be a lonely life.

To wake up knowing you MUST distrust and at the same time fear and hate anyone who finds comfort in their religion or belief.

Ever thought of counselling?

Have you ever thought that it may be you who is evil and untrustworthy?

A long think and a look in the mirror might provide you with some startling insight to what type of person you might really be.

I will find that Tara statue tonight and say a prayer for you. I think you need a blessing. I think that Tibetan would be glad I used it in this manner.

Borg

Edited February 20, 2008 by Borg

Oleg Bach · February 20, 2008

This man deserved far more bit of respect than you do.
He never once trashed MY belief.

He never pushed his upon me.

He would never have considered it.

You make every effort to do so - at all cost - no matter the religion or belief. You yourself have stated this to be so.

You would do this despite the fact that millions find comfort in their beliefs? Why would you do this?

Is it your purpose in life to cause them pain?

Do you find pleasure in this?

You talk of gravity and the fact we can prove it through its affects.

I certainly have never and would never consider your thoughts and beliefs absurd.

However ......

I can see the EFFECT your belief has had upon you.

You can prove gravity - I can prove Drea has hatred in her heart.

It fills you with hatred - you believe you must attack - at all cost.

You do this and lessen it by calling it scrutiny - yet you mock anyone who believes - simply because they have no proof.

No matter your belief - I feel sorry for you. Pity in fact. You are hard.

You believe you have to attack anyone who does not think or believe as you.

In fact that scares me as it would any person who is sane.

There have been people in history that were like you - only they had more power - perhaps it is good that you do not.

It must be a lonely life.

To wake up knowing you MUST distrust and at the same time fear and hate anyone who finds comfort in their religion or belief.

Ever thought of counselling?

Have you ever thought that it may be you who is evil and untrustworthy?

A long think and a look in the mirror might provide you with some startling insight to what type of person you might really be.

I will find that Tara statue tonight and say a prayer for you. I think you need a blessing. I think that Tibetan would be glad I used it in this manner.

Borg

"It must be a lonely life" ? Borg - we are born alone and die alone. Perhaps instead of saying lonely life - it would have been more accurate to say one can live a more independent life from the collective and thus have authorship over ones life through a deep belief system based on principle. The subject of a "more diverse" prayer is a dictitorial approach to so called religion. Christ said and and it seems that most Christians practice anti-christism..He said when you pray do it in absolute private and that it is no ones buisness other than your own and the infinite consciousness we call God. - I have repeatedly said that all religion is evil as is base nature...it is a human construct - where as God and Goodnesss are the devine...I have seen evidence of those that resent the fact that the word GOOD and GOD are from the same root..some enterprising evil twerps do not like this concept because they are rats.

Drea · February 20, 2008

This man deserved far more bit of respect than you do.
He never once trashed MY belief.

you believe the same as he does, so bashing you would be bashing himself, no?

He never pushed his upon me.

Daily religion is "pushed" upon folks. I don't get through one single day without seeing some reference to the invisible entity.

He would never have considered it.
You make every effort to do so - at all cost - no matter the religion or belief. You yourself have stated this to be so.

Religion is based on absurdity. The absurdity that there is an entity judging our every move. Think about, no really THINK about how silly this is.

You would do this despite the fact that millions find comfort in their beliefs? Why would you do this?
Is it your purpose in life to cause them pain?

Do you find pleasure in this?

While you may feel comforted by the thought of an invisible friend, the fact remains that the invisible friend is not real, he exists only in your head. Just like a four year old who has an invisible friend... we as parents know it's not real but will generally humour the child.

You talk of gravity and the fact we can prove it through its affects.
I certainly have never and would never consider your thoughts and beliefs absurd.

Is it absurd to watch a leaf fall off a tree and think "gravity in action"? Or do you believe the invisible entity personally plucks each leaf off of every tree? Which is it god or gravity?

I can see the EFFECT your belief has had upon you.
You can prove gravity - I can prove Drea has hatred in her heart.

One cannot "prove" an emotion, such as angry, love, joy... these things cannot be "proven".

No I hate no one. The religious always think people who critisize their beliefs actually hate them but this is not the case.

In my world I have no one preaching to me every Sunday (or whatever day you've chosen as "sacred") that others are sinful or evil. No one tells me I am better than the next person because I believe a particular story about an invisible entity. Critisism is not hatred.

It fills you with hatred - you believe you must attack - at all cost.
You do this and lessen it by calling it scrutiny - yet you mock anyone who believes - simply because they have no proof.

That is correct. When people run around telling me their invisible friend is judging me, I laugh. Mr. Invisible friend ought to show himself, no? LOL

No matter your belief - I feel sorry for you. Pity in fact. You are hard.
You believe you have to attack anyone who does not think or believe as you.

In fact that scares me as it would any person who is sane.

Don't pity me. Save your pity.

What scares you about my non belief? Why would my non belief scare you anyway? I don't have an invisible friend waiting to strike you down or anything.

I can say what I want, I have no invisible friend telling me what I can and cannot do.

There have been people in history that were like you - only they had more power - perhaps it is good that you do not.
It must be a lonely life.

To wake up knowing you MUST distrust and at the same time fear and hate anyone who finds comfort in their religion or belief.

I don't "distrust" believers, I just think they have been sucked into the most absurd notion that the human race ever came up with, but I don't "distrust" them.

Most of the time I don't think about invisible entities etc. The only time in my life it ever comes up is here on MLW.

Ever thought of counselling?
Have you ever thought that it may be you who is evil and untrustworthy?

Evil is a word created by the religious. There is no such thing as "evil" there is no such thing as a "devil" there is no such thing as a "god" so your point is moot.

I live in this life. This life is the only guarantee we have. If there shall be a "next" life -- great! But I am not going to live my real life expecting something unproven (no one has ever come back and told us about heaven -- even my mother who promised she would contact me from the beyond if she could).

Counselling? Why pray tell? (LOL). Should it not be the other way around? People who believe in invisible entities need psychiatric help. The friend is in your head...

A long think and a look in the mirror might provide you with some startling insight to what type of person you might really be.

I look every day and like who I see. The same cannot be said for the religious who have been told they are born "sinners", born "evil" and that they must look forward to the next life because in this one they are really really bad -- so bad that the entity apparently killed it's own son... sick man sick.

I will find that Tara statue tonight and say a prayer for you. I think you need a blessing. I think that Tibetan would be glad I used it in this manner.
Borg

A statue is going to "save" me? LOL I am sorry but really, really think about how absurd that sounds.

Edited February 20, 2008 by Drea

DogOnPorch · February 21, 2008

Actually we were founded by a much more tangible tradtition, mercantilism. I don't even think the catch all prase, "Judaeo-Christian" was even used in the 18th and 19th century. The founders were probably more concerned with the conflicts between antidisestablishmentarianism and presbytarianism/rome that any notion of a shared ethos.
The legal heritage we share that came from the colonials is the common law, which has more pagan saxon roots than anything given post hoc from Jerusalem.

You're probably right re: the usage of "Judaeo-Christian". However it can be argued that even mercantilism is part of that tradition...be it unnamed at the time or not. I know there's criticism of the term for being too catch-all as you mention. But what else can we call it? Western Civilization, I suppose. Now there's 'catch-all'.

:lol:

----------------------------------------

Old: Humankind is inherently evil and a worm of the dust.

New: Humankind is inherently good and has infinite possibilities.

---Charles Francis Potter

M.Dancer · February 21, 2008

You're probably right re: the usage of "Judaeo-Christian". However it can be argued that even mercantilism is part of that tradition...be it unnamed at the time or not. I know there's criticism of the term for being too catch-all as you mention. But what else can we call it? Western Civilization, I suppose. Now there's 'catch-all'.

----------------------------------------

Old: Humankind is inherently evil and a worm of the dust.

New: Humankind is inherently good and has infinite possibilities.

---Charles Francis Potter

Growing up I never heard the term judaeo-christian. In schools we were taught we stemmed from the tradion of the greco roman civilization, which considering out legal groundings, literature and art is far more likely than coming from a tradition of desert nomads and aestetic hermits.

DogOnPorch · February 21, 2008

Growing up I never heard the term judaeo-christian. In schools we were taught we stemmed from the tradion of the greco roman civilization, which considering out legal groundings, literature and art is far more likely than coming from a tradition of desert nomads and aestetic hermits.

Now I did grow-up hearing it in school...and Greco-Roman culture was thrown in as part and parcel. But, I think we're still on the same page in the end.

---------------------------------------------

I don't want to go on a lynching party against Michelle Obama.

---Bill O'Reilly

freakinbox · March 18, 2008

NOTHING BEATS..

we want to change Christmas day to WINTER FESTIVAL... WTF if you don't like our ways and want to cry and whine about it DON'T COME HERE! lol We did it to ourselves though, for so long we have been push overs letting others change our ways and add their own. Has it come to a point where we can't stop it now?

MontyBurns · March 18, 2008

NOTHING BEATS..
we want to change Christmas day to WINTER FESTIVAL... WTF if you don't like our ways and want to cry and whine about it DON'T COME HERE! lol We did it to ourselves though, for so long we have been push overs letting others change our ways and add their own. Has it come to a point where we can't stop it now?

Unfortunately I don't think it can be stopped. :angry:

We can only hope...

freakinbox · March 18, 2008

like I've said, if we were to go to their countries we would be lucky if someone didn't try to kill us.I understand they want their stuff to but they moved here. If you didn't like our traditions why did you come here?

jefferiah · March 18, 2008

I am mocked daily, called a fanatic etc, because I am an atheist. So too bad if you are offended by one little post in a whole sea of threads.

You know Drea, I always hear you saying this, but I have a hard time believing it. Actually, in observing your interactions with people on this forum, it would appear to me that mockery is something that naturally flows from your own person, and I see very little indication of you getting any in return.

So I mean how does this mockery take place. I mean what exactly happens daily in your life that is so horrible. Are you walking down the street while people hurl rocks at you chanting "Fanatic Fanatic!!"?

Rue · March 18, 2008

It never ceases to amaze me that people can make such a statement. Do you have any understanding of Canadian history whatsoever?

And you never cease to amaze me how you accuse other people of the very thing you do,

Aboriginal peoples and their nations and their collective faith clearly preceded and were established in Canada and have always been part of Canada as much as you would like to deny them or ignire them. Your comments are also completely ignorant of the fact that we have laws that make it clear our laws and governments and government services are no more Christian then they are anything else, so that they are accessible and neutral for all and for that matter so that people like you can not have their way and act intolerantly and discriminatorily against those you do not agree with in the name of your alleged religious beliefs.

Before you adapt an arrogant tone with anyone take a good look in the mirror. The brown shirt and black boots are unoriginal.

Rue · March 18, 2008

Whether people like it or not, this country is founded on Judeo Christian beliefs - the preamble to the constitution includes: "Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law." There was never any intent that Judeo-Christian values could not impact government policy.
If you doubt me, just go stand in front of the Peace Tower and read the Old Testament Scriptures that are carved into the stone above the three arches, or for that matter sing the national anthem.... "God keep our land glorious and free as we stand on guard for Thee".

The above-referenced verses read as follows:

1. He shall have dominion from sea to sea [who do you all think that He is referring to?

With due respect Scrib and you know I respect you and its a minor disagreement because I know what you meant, in my opinion Canada was not founded on any Judeo values at all. In fact the Canada you refer to of 1867 was founded on Anglican and Catholic traditions which I believe then discriminated against the founding peoples of Canada and their faith-the aboriginal peoples and for many years discriminated against non Christians other then aboriginals as well as gays, atheists and agnostics.

Judaism's mystic traditions in the Kabal are very similiar to many of the belief systems of the aboriginal collective. We certainly do not believe in conversion nor would we consider aboriginals or non Jews heathen.

If anything pure Jewish tradition would consider the aboriginal peoples to be spiritual elders to look to for understanding of the creation and creator. A shayman and a mystical Jew would have much in common.

This country was for many years one of institutionalized discrimination and prejudice done in the name of Jesus Christ and its precisely the kind of world Keng wants back and that was simply the purpose of his original post and what Drea responded to.

That said Scrib, It was because of enlightened Christians as well as non Christians we are now able to change tintolerance. Many Christians taught me to be tolerant precisely because they rejected the intolerance in their own religion as not being Christian.

What I know about Drea is he may not believe in religion as many define it but he is as spiritual and tolerant as they come. People mistake believing in God with automatically being spiritual or tolerant.

All you have to do is read Keng's posts to know believing in God and professing you are righteous doesn't make it so and in fact often establishes the opposite as is the case with Keng who time and time again shows disrespect to anyone for having views he does not agree with. Drea's posts time and time again have shown tolerance and an open mind to those he disagrees with. I have no idea how we get to the point where someone as tolerant as Drea has to justify himself for his comment.

Thanks but if I have a choice its Drea living next door. At least when he has a bonfire, he won't burn a cross and will share his marshmellows which may not be kosher but what the hell.

Edited March 18, 2008 by Rue

kengs333 · March 19, 2008

like I've said, if we were to go to their countries we would be lucky if someone didn't try to kill us.I understand they want their stuff to but they moved here. If you didn't like our traditions why did you come here?

Money, and because their own countries are stink-holes that have corrupt tyrannical governments; but it mostly has to do with money. They want jobs that pay well, the government wants their money to enter the Canadian economy so that there will always be "economic growth". Economic statistics is what motivates the government of this country; history, culture, traditions, arts, all that intrinsic stuff that can't be converted to a dollar figure has little or no meaning.

Rue · March 20, 2008

Once again Keng engages in sweeping negative generalized slurs this time, "because their own countries are stink-holes that have corrupt tyrannical governments..."

As far as I am concerned anyone who has to go through life engaging in the above has zero I repeat zero credibility. Not only has Keng professed he is capable of defining all individuals as inferior who do not follow his personal beliefs, but now he writes off entire nations-stink holes...so which one of you would like to tell me he is a good Christian again? Sound like someone about to become a missionary and travel to a "stink hole" to save the smelly from the corupt tyrants? Or does it sound simply like someone who hates and likes to throw out insults to make himself feel superior to others?

Edited March 20, 2008 by Rue

Qwerty · April 15, 2008

There was a time when no building anywhere was allowed to be taller then the tallest churches steeple.

If this isn't a respect to Christian values I don't know what is.

The Ontario flag and the flag of many provinces as well as the Red Ensign all have the St. George cross in them. That is a Christian symbol without doubt.

I will bet money that those who are arguing here are under the age of 20 and were most likely raised by absent parents...just a guess.

How else could such a lack of tradition and moral values come from?

If tradition, morals and ethics mean nothing in the new Canada, I'll take the old one any day of the week. Bring back the Red Ensign please, Canada's true flag.

Edited April 15, 2008 by Qwerty

M.Dancer · April 15, 2008

There was a time when no building anywhere was allowed to be taller then the tallest churches steeple.
If this isn't a respect to Christian values I don't know what is.

And that time....was it 1432?

More likely respect for medieval engineering limitations...

Qwerty · April 15, 2008

And that time....was it 1432?
More likely respect for medieval engineering limitations...

It would serve kids today well if they were to read once in awhile and draw their own conclusions rather than to regurgitate what is told them on the CBC.

Read some history of the original laws and torts of this country.

1800's and into the early part of the 1900's.

What do they teach kids in public school these days?

I am happy mine are not part of the public system.

M.Dancer · April 15, 2008

It would serve kids today well if they were to read once in awhile and draw their own conclusions rather than to regurgitate what is told them on the CBC.
Read some history of the original laws and torts of this country.

1800's and into the early part of the 1900's.

What do they teach kids in public school these days?

I am happy mine are not part of the public system.

fine...then a citation would be appreciated.

M.Dancer · April 15, 2008

Not withsatnding any urban myths....the reason buildings did not compete with churches prior to the 1900s has much more to do with engineering and the lack of elevators than anything else.

Once the elevator and steel were employed, engineers raced to new heights.

By 1900 skyscrappers in north amerca were reaching 400ft tall, taller than any church in North America ...

Edited April 15, 2008 by M.Dancer

Drea · April 15, 2008

It would serve kids today well if they were to read once in awhile and draw their own conclusions rather than to regurgitate what is told them on the CBC.
Read some history of the original laws and torts of this country.

1800's and into the early part of the 1900's.

What do they teach kids in public school these days?

I am happy mine are not part of the public system.

Gawd and Jebus help us -- another one... *sigh*

1. Young people don't watch the CBC. My grandfather used to watch -- I always considered it an "old" person's station. :lol:

2. Old laws out -- new laws in... and your problem with that is what exactly? Which laws that have been shelved would you like put back on the table?

3. My son is currently learing algebra, biology (the study of DNA) and Shakespeare...

4... and your kids are learning that the earth was "created" in six days... of course you did mean that they go to private religious school yes? Or do you have momma stay home and teach them how to bake cookies?

welcome to the forum Qwerty. .. you may or may not like it here.

Cheers!

Drea -- the resident atheist, feminist, teen girl defender!

guyser · April 15, 2008

Drea -- the resident atheist, feminist, teen girl defender!

You forgot "conjecturer par extraordinaire"

WIP · April 15, 2008

Yet another attack against Christianity in this country is taking place in Ontario where Premier McGuinty is seeking to have the Lord's Prayer that is recited each morning before legislature commences replaced with something "more diverse". History, tradition, and faith seem to have little significance in Canada, although Ontario always seems to have managed to hold on for just a little longer--out flag still bears the Union Jack (how long will that be the case)--and I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise that this is now happening. It's interesting how keen Canadians are in respecting other people's traditions, and have no problem in accepting that other countries and cultures can stubbornly hold on to "archaic" institutions (we even spend billions of dollars traveling to these places to experience these hallmarks of intolerance). Canada has it's own culture and heritage: Canada is a Christian country, founded by Europeans, with institutions based on European models; there is no reason why people who come to this country--regardless of where they come from--can't function and participate in our society without our traditions being constantly trashed or revised.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/National/

I want to revisit the thread opener about what kind of prayer to have in the Provincial Parliament because it started before I came here and it's moved off to other issues lately. My first question is why does the legislature need a prayer to begin with? Judging from the scandals out of Queens Park during my lifetime, I can't see any evidence that invoking God and religion makes politicians more honest or better people than they would otherwise be!

The simple fact is that regardless of whether or not Ontario started as a Christian colony that set up an uneasy alliance between Protestants and Catholics, the province is a much different place today! The founders also intended it to stay a Loyalist mirror of England, so they tried to make sure that Protestantism would always have the upper hand.

Today, we have immigrants who come from non-Christian countries, and the Muslim immigrants in particular, will use all laws and rules that give religion special status as an opportunity to push their religion into the public square. Get rid of the prayers and you won't have to worry about hearing prayers to other gods that you don't like!