Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian

[guyser]

but do not rule out the idea that we were created by aliens.

That would explain at least some things read around here......<cough cough>

[M.Dancer]

That would explain at least some things read around here......<cough cough>

Fruitbats...moon units and kooks

[guyser]

Fruitbats...moon units and kooks

Hey now, dont be dissing on my girl Moon Unit. RIP to her dad.

I prefer to call "it" moon pie.

[Drea]

That would explain at least some things read around here......<cough cough>

I repeat.... you are free to ignore my posts.

But you can't can you? You LOVE it.

Edited May 8, 2008 by Drea

[WIP]

WIP,

You're parents were just 2 lost people seeking...It's hard to personally disconnect though isn't it..

From my point of view, everybody is lost - if you want to define lack of knowledge in these terms. The difference is some of us know we are lost, but are satisfied with leaving the gaps in knowledge open until they can be filled in with plausible explanations - although it is fun to speculate on 11 dimensional multi-universes, or universes created by advanced civilizations!......................................but most people demand answers, and they don't care a great deal about how likely these answers are to being correct. The best example of how easy it is to start a religion and establish dogmas and rituals are the Cargo Cults of the South Pacific. The first were formed around the islanders' ignorance of the ships and technology of British and French mariners travelling through the islands. Their ignorance was replaced with religious dogma that took the place of real understanding.

The best one is probably a legacy of the War in the Pacific during WWII, when the John Frum Cult started in the New Hebrides islands. The Navy has no records of an American serviceman actually named "John Frum", and it is likely that the deity of John Frum was created as a composite character based on any number of American sailors or airmen who may have come in contact with the natives. Nevertheless, they created a set of dogmas, prophecies and rituals that included dress resembling military uniforms and marching with wooden rifles. They even created their own "radios" made of coconuts and scrap metal so that the priests could talk to John From and the other air-gods! And inspite of failed prophecies (John Frum was supposed to return to the islands with cargo and take the white missionaries away), the John Frum religion continues to this day. http://www.nthposition.com/thelastcargo.php

This is one of the few examples where anthropologists and sociologists have the opportunity to witness the process of establishing a religion, and its parallels with existing established religions make a skeptic question the reliability of the religious approach to understanding.

On the big questions, most of us just accept the answers we were given as children and inquire no further. So the fact that my father kept finding things he didn't like about the churches we were in and dragged us off to the next "true religion" was a blessing - if you can pardon the expression. Two of my brothers stayed with the last church they landed in, whereas myself and my eldest brother became skeptics and like the independent vantage-point, unconstrained by dogma.

I can't see myself ever jumping in feet first into another religion. Putting all of the different denominations aside, there are at least 1500 different faith-groupings in North America http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_deno.htm

These are divided on core doctrinal issues like authority and inerrancy of the Bible, interpretation of prophecy and Biblical history, and even on something as crucial as the doctrine of salvation: are you saved by faith alone, or by faith combined with good works, or faith accompanied by water baptism, or has your salvation along with the "elect" already been predetermined and out of your hands entirely?

The problem is that these divisions on something as crucial as how to get into heaven, means that not everyone who calls themself a Christian gets in. Many, if not the majority of Christians, will be in the same existential boat as everyone else in the world who has the wrong set of beliefs, from atheists and agnostics to all the people who belong to non-Christian religions. And that for me is the biggest stumbling block of religious dogma - reward for the correct belief and punishment for having the wrong belief!

[WIP]

This could also mean that god is an alien and as a space traveller, would be aware of many other "earths"...

We can disect this one sentence:

My father (a creator, not necessarily an invisible entity -- could be a technologically advanced extraterrestrial.)

my father's house (the universe)

has many mansions (there are many habitable planets)

Ignore the snickering from the peanut gallery; Arthur C. Clarke made this point a number of years ago, that a sufficiently advanced alien would seem like a god from our perspective! I think that's where the Star Trek writers got their idea for the character "Q", and those cargo cults that I just finished talking about are also proof that advanced technology is quickly interpreted as supernatural power! That Biocosm Model I mentioned previously is being developed just in case there are aliens "designing" new universes. Who knows how likely this hypothesis is, but the guys who are working out the math for it say that it is possible.

It's all in the interpretation. And saying that JW's interpret it "wrong" is wrong itself as no one knows anything for sure about the beginning (middle or end) of everything.

There are thousands of different religions, and that makes it pretty hard for one of them to say "we have the right doctrine and everybody else is wrong."

I lean toward evolution, but do not rule out the idea that we were created by aliens.

Most progressive religions were able to incorporate evolution with their relgious beliefs. DNA analysis of the human genome shows that our genetic code is just slightly at variance with chimpanzees and other primates, and comparison with other genomes that have been charted, follows the same phylogenetic tree of life predicted by paleontologists who studied the fossil record. In other words, there is no plausible scientific basis for trying to hold on to a belief that humans and other creatures were separate creations. This is why the hardline fundamentalists who are determined to hold on to a literal interpretation of Genesis, also want their followers to believe that scientists are evil and part of a satanic conspiracy lead believers away from Christ!

[michele]

WIP says:

but most people demand answers, and they don't care a great deal about how likely these answers are to being correct.

But who are they demanding answers from WIP? God? Or somebody else?

I saw this the other day and copied it to a file.

Hydrology

Hydrologic Cycle Ecclesiastes 1:7; Isaiah 55:10

Evaporation Psalms 135:7; Jeremiah 10:13

Condensation Nuclei Proverbs 8:26

Condensation Job 26:8; 37:11, 16

Precipitation Job 36:26-28

Run-off Job 28:10

Oceanic Reservoir Psalms 33:7

Snow Job 38:22; Psalms 147:16

Hydrologic Balance Job 28:24-26

Springs in the Sea Job 38:16

Geology

Principle of Isostasy Isaiah 40:12; Psalm 104:5-9

Shape of Earth Isaiah 40:22; Job 26:10; Psalm 103:12

Rotation of Earth Job 38:12,14

Gravitation Job 26:7; 38:6

Rock Erosion Job 14:18,19

Glacial Period Job 38:29,30

Uniformitarianism II Peter 3:4

Dinosaurs Job 40,41

Astronomy

Size of Universe Job 11:7-9; 22:12; Isaiah 55:9;Jeremiah 31:37

Number of Stars Genesis 22:17; Jeremiah 33:22

Uniqueness of Each Star I Corinthians 15:41

Precision of Orbits Jeremiah 31:35,36

Meteorology

Circulation of Atmosphere Ecclesiastes 1:6

Protective Effect of Atmosphere Isaiah 40:22

Oceanic Origin of Rain Ecclesiastes 1:7

Relation of Electricity to Rain Job 28:26; Jeremiah 10:13

Fluid Dynamics Job 28:25

Biology

Blood Circulation Leviticus 17:11

Psychotherapy Proverbs 16:24; 17:22

Biogenesis and Stability Genesis 1:11,21,25

Uniqueness of Man Genesis 1:26

Chemical Nature of Flesh Genesis 1:11,24-2:7;3:19

Cave-men Job 12:23-25; 30:3-8

Physics

Mass-Energy Colossians 1:17; Hebrews 1:3

Equivalence Psalms 19:6

Source of Energy for Earth II Peter 3:10

Atomic Disintegration Revelation 11:9-11

Electrical Transmission of Information

Television

Rapid Transportation Daniel 12:4

I've only studied some. The Bible is more than people think.

Wip says:

On the big questions, most of us just accept the answers we were given as children and inquire no further.

Not so for many. They have gone on to study and look for themselves.

WIP says:

I can't see myself ever jumping in feet first into another religion. Putting all of the different denominations aside, there are at least 1500 different faith-groupings in North America

but..there's only one Jesus...Who is he?

Wip says:

These are divided on core doctrinal issues like authority and inerrancy of the Bible, interpretation of prophecy and Biblical history, and even on something as crucial as the doctrine of salvation: are you saved by faith alone, or by faith combined with good works, or faith accompanied by water baptism, or has your salvation along with the "elect" already been predetermined and out of your hands entirely?

When you're really saved you want to do good works...You don't have to do good works. You know a man by his fruit..not by works or gifts..

Was the man next to Christ on the cross baptised?

God knows the beginning from the end. I see God as having a great big filmstrip stretched out from hand to hand...The beginning in his right the end in his left..It's all alive and moving.

[WIP]

WIP says:

But who are they demanding answers from WIP? God? Or somebody else?

The cargo cults provide a good illustration of how people make up answers to explain things they don't understand. How do you know you are getting your answers from the creator of the Universe, and everyone else with different gods and/or different dogmas is wrong?

I saw this the other day and copied it to a file.

Take it with a grain of salt! The authors are stretching to try to interpret the most obscure passages as scientific proofs for the authority of the Bible. If the Bible had useful scientific information that wasn't available at the time, such as the germ theory of disease, that would be significant. Instead, the bible writers understood less about medicine than the Ancient Greeks. And they thought disease is caused by sin and demons, not from infectious agents that we cannot see.

Even the health and dietary laws are nothing to brag about! Pigs are unclean according to Mosaic Law, and this is considered as wise advise from a divine authority even though no fowl are on the unclean list, even though the birds that are allowed are more dangerous sources of botulism than pigs are!

Now about the first group - can Bible verses be used to prove the writers understood the water cycle when the creation account denies it, saying that it didn't rain before the time of the Flood:

Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

GEOLOGY

They claim Isaiah 40:22 proves knowledge that the Earth is round:

40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Jehovah's Witnesses try to use this as proof also, even though it says "circle" not a ball or a sphere. Hebrew has different words for each, why would it use the word for circle unless it was referring to an ancient cosmology the Hebrews shared with the Babylonians and others, which featured a three level universe with heaven as a vaulted ceiling that had an ocean above it and lights suspended from its roof. It doesn't look much like the modern picture of the Cosmos and its foolish to try to stretch the meaning of other verses to make them fit the picture of the Universe we know today! http://www.aarweb.org/syllabus/syllabi/g/g...ommoncosmos.htm

And Astronomy! According to these people, these verses are supposed to prove the author of Job knew how big the Universe is! Funny, I don't see any mention of 13.7 billion lightyears in the following verses:

JOB 11:7 Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?

11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

11:9 The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

22:12 Is not God in the height of heaven? and behold the height of the stars, how high they are!

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

From what I've seen so far, I don't expect to find anything in the Bible predicting the invention of the television, or that they were aware of cavemen and dinosaurs.

[michele]

WIP says:

How do you know you are getting your answers from the creator of the Universe, and everyone else with different gods and/or different dogmas is wrong?

I don't know what everybody else gets unless the Lord shows me.

How do l know that what l'm getting is from God? It depends on what your talking about.

But l would say subjective witness via the Holy Spirit with signs following.

I haven't studied all those passages l quoted WIP...but l have studied other things that bring scientific evidence. But one thing in all my experience...and even with signs and wonders following...there is always the missing piece that only faith can fill. It's "impossible to please God without faith" I don't know about you but l like that prerequisite...There's a lot to be said about proof though. Especially the proof in fulfilled historical written prophecy. I think you know some of this but don't have order to it. This isn't my area of expertise...

[michele]

What l'm saying here is that if you're really trying to hear and are looking at the Bible, God isn't just going to leave you dangling. He will confirm his word with signs following. (Two or more witnesses) He will do it in a way that is designed just for you personally. He will do it for Susie in another way and Bob the mathmatician in another. The point is...God is awsome and can reveal himself to whoever he wants. You just can't fool him. "He's a rewarder of those who diligently seek him"

Edited May 10, 2008 by michele

[michele]

This forum won't let me post pictures but check this out;

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&...=1&ie=UTF-8

Have you ever heard of the cohesion protein molecule called 'laminin'? It is THE protein that holds us together. It is THE protein that creates the "basement" or foundational structures of our bodies! Each and every animal - beast and human alike - uses the protein laminin to hold itself together. The laminin molecule is very good at creating "sheets" of itself that bind cells together into various structures. Laminin is extremely important to making sure that your overall body structures hold together. If laminin isn't produced correctly, your muscles may form improperly, giving you a form of muscular dystrophy. Or you may just fall apart in a way similar to aging, a condition called "progeria".

"Lamb-in-in"

Imagine the name of the molecule giving glory to JESUS CHRIST!

1pe 1:17 If you call on him as Father, who without respect of persons judges according to each man`s work, pass the time of your living as strangers here in reverent fear:

1pe 1:18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers,

1pe 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without spot, the blood of Christ;

1pe 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of times for your sake,

1pe 1:21 who through him are believers in God, that raised him from the dead, and gave him glory; so that your faith and hope might be in God.

Ps 103:14 For he knows how we are made. He remembers that we are dust.

Ps 139:13 For you formed my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother`s womb.

Ps 139:14 I will give thanks to you, For I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful. My soul knows that very well.

Ps 139:15 My frame wasn`t hidden from you, When I was made in secret, Woven together in the depths of the earth.

Ps 139:16 Your eyes saw my body. In your book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there were none of them.

Col 1:16 For in him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and to him.

Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.”Col 1:18 He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Col 1:19 For all the fullness was pleased to dwell in him;

Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile all things to himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross. Through him, I say, whether things on the earth, or things in the heavens.

Col 1:21 You, being in past times alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil works,

Col 1:22 yet now he has reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and blameless before him,

Col 1:23 if it is so that you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; of which I, Paul, was made a servant.

[HisSelf]

Can we add this one to the top ten signs...

You are blonde, you have big bazoobs, and you write a book called "How to talk to a liberal if you must"

[jbg]

Can we add this one to the top ten signs...

You are blonde, you have big bazoobs, and you write a book called "How to talk to a liberal if you must"

And she believes that Jews are "unperfected Christians". Tell me about it. I don't need or want her "perfection".

[WIP]

WIP says:

I don't know what everybody else gets unless the Lord shows me.

How do l know that what l'm getting is from God? It depends on what your talking about.

But l would say subjective witness via the Holy Spirit with signs following.

The problem as I see it, is that you don't believe it is possible to misinterpret this subjective experience you identify as the Holy Spirit. You likely will agree that it is possible to make cognitive mistakes in studying a problem, or misinterpreting our perceptions, but a subjective experience that feels like it coming from within, is something that people feel they cannot be wrong about. I'll try to be as brief as possible, but I can't explain my take on how trustworthy this sort of evidence is without mentioning the conclusions I've come to about how to understand the mind and interpret personal identity.

A good place to start would be with the philosopher/mathematician Rene Descartes, who was troubled by his examination of how much our visual sense could be deceived, and decided that to find the path to real understanding, he would have to start from within, and gradually verify the external world. That's partly why he came up with the famous quote that translates to English as:"I think, therefore I am!" For Descartes, we exist in the manner that we think we exist, as a unified and continuous self.

But, in the modern era, the neuroscientists who are unlocking the secrets to how the brain functions, are casting grave doubts on the idea that we can perceive our consciousness any more accurately than we can perceive the outside world! When subjects are wired up with advanced EEG, MRI and new machines that monitor the minute bloodflows between neurons in the brain, they find that conscious experiences can be correlated with different areas of the Cerebral Cortex - the most highly developed area of the brain - but all sorts of different components within the cortex can be utilized, with none of them acting as a control center that would be expected if there was a unified source of personal identity.

The alternative to unity or ego theory, is referred to as bundle theory of mind - a series of mental states are gathered together through short-term memory to create a false sense of unity and continuous self identity. It's something of a disturbing picture, that the part of ourselves that seems most real, our feeling of continuous consciousness, may be generated by the brain for functional reasons. But this concept, which began with philosopher David Hume, has gained traction over the years because it can better explain the disorders of unity such as: apparent divided consciousness of patients who had operations to divide the two hemispheres of the cerebral cortex, dissociative disorders (formerly called multiple personality syndrome), and various forms of schizophrenia.

For further reading: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciou...nity/#DisUniCon http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/

Now that I've gotten through these questions, the problem I have with a feeling that the Holy Spirit might be talking to me, is one of reliability. The evidence from neuroscience favours the standpoint that there is no intrinsic conscious unity, and it is an internal perceptual illusion created by the brain! With that said, any inner voice or inner experience could be just as unreliable as a misinterpretation by the visual cortex could give us about the external world. Gaining reliable knowledge is going to be best established by the scientific method, which gathers observations, measurements, and empirical information to put together theories that can be refined or discarded if further research or experiments find errors, before arriving at something that's trusted as reliable.

There will always remain some subjectivity in the search for truth because human nature makes us prone to personal biases, cognitive errors, influence from trusted advisers and simply because of emotional interference causing us to stubbornly hang on to some improbably beliefs and reject others because of emotional reaction. So, there will never be one belief system that everyone agrees with. The world will continue on with thousands of different religious sects, and millions of different interpretations within them. The trick is to get most everyone to accept a situation where the majority of people have different beliefs. Tyranny, religious wars, genocides etc. often occur when some groups just can't accept living with others who have different sets of beliefs.

I haven't studied all those passages l quoted WIP...but l have studied other things that bring scientific evidence. But one thing in all my experience...and even with signs and wonders following...there is always the missing piece that only faith can fill. It's "impossible to please God without faith" I don't know about you but l like that prerequisite...There's a lot to be said about proof though. Especially the proof in fulfilled historical written prophecy. I think you know some of this but don't have order to it. This isn't my area of expertise...

I mentioned before that I see the requirement to have faith as a precondition to accept a belief before it is proven.

[michele]

WIP says:

The problem as I see it, is that you don't believe it is possible to misinterpret this subjective experience you identify as the Holy Spirit. You likely will agree that it is possible to make cognitive mistakes in studying a problem, or misinterpreting our perceptions, but a subjective experience that feels like it coming from within, is something that people feel they cannot be wrong about.

You're wrong WIP..I do think we can be wrong. Our seeing isn't perfect. Have you ever heard of preponderance of the evidence? If l have a 4 piece puzzle and one piece is missing is it possible to know what the picture is? Sure it is..."This is called seeing through a glass darkly"

Say I have an event connected to scripture or some other thing in my life that happens and l think the Lord wants to show me something...Two other unrelated things happen or two other persons bring witness. That's 3 pieces. The missing piece is faith..

Are you going to admit to yourself first that you're seeing the picture with 3 pieces only?

I've been wrong. I've also cluttered the issues with my own speculation. (many times) But l'm growing and so far God's grace is my covering. I try to keep my heart right..not allowing myself to be drawn into useless arguing. I bring a message only. It's not up to me to prove it but l do exhort you to keep your eyes and ears open. Pay attention to life for God is ever revealing himself.

Edited May 11, 2008 by michele

[michele]

As far as Descartes goes... Doubting Thomas is nothing knew. Lot's of people have to touch the scars. It's Ok...If our heart is right he lets us touch...He's not even closed to proof. Just get your motives right first. He'll do the rest.

[HisSelf]

And she believes that Jews are "unperfected Christians". Tell me about it. I don't need or want her "perfection".

I know. How did people like this wind up on centre stage? There is this thing about the American media. It seems to be attracted to loud and proud. I think it is the wellsource of their creativity, and bless them for this, but it is like standing in a cyclotron and wondering where the protons will hit....

[WIP]

This forum won't let me post pictures but check this out;

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&...=1&ie=UTF-8

Have you ever heard of the cohesion protein molecule called 'laminin'? It is THE protein that holds us together. It is THE protein that creates the "basement" or foundational structures of our bodies! Each and every animal - beast and human alike - uses the protein laminin to hold itself together. The laminin molecule is very good at creating "sheets" of itself that bind cells together into various structures. Laminin is extremely important to making sure that your overall body structures hold together. If laminin isn't produced correctly, your muscles may form improperly, giving you a form of muscular dystrophy. Or you may just fall apart in a way similar to aging, a condition called "progeria".

"Lamb-in-in"

Imagine the name of the molecule giving glory to JESUS CHRIST!

I want to go back to this, because I don't have a background in chemistry, and never read about laminin before. I'm watching a video of evangelist Louie Giglio making the claim that because the diagram of this binding molecule is shaped like a cross(the actual picture under an electron microscope shows less resemblance), and quotes the verse Colossians 1:17 “He (Christ) is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” So that means Jesus is a binding molecule in all organic compounds? Or maybe the cross is the binding molecule, because the diagram is not a picture of Jesus, it's the Roman device used to execute him and thousands of others during the days of the Empire.

The brief presentation doesn't explain to me why a molecule with a cross-like shape is more than coincidental. Is he saying that it is evidence for a supernatural lifeforce? If so, what is this molecule doing that separates it from all of the other natural processes going on in biochemistry? If it's just a resemblance to a cross, that's not really any more compelling than the appearance of a face on the Moon we can see on any clear night!

And this is the key problem I have been reading about "proofs" of intelligent design for the last few years. The proponents of creationism contend that all appearance of design has to come from an outside designing force because that is the natural way our brains are wired to interpret the world around us. The typhoon in Burma will be interpreted by many villagers as a divine judgement, just like the tsunami that hit Indonesia a couple of years ago. And modern, sophisticated people can be led to interpret complexity in nature as intelligent design also.

The problem is that as soon as one proof of design gets knocked down, another one rises up in its place! When I was young, and we were in the JW's, their creation books( which plagiarized Henry Moore) claimed that the eye could not have been put together through natural forces. But the scientists were not convinced to give up searching to unlock the mystery. Since eyes formed differently in different animals, natural processes were suspected to be at work. In recent years, the flagella (the motors) that propel bacteria, were claimed to be designed by Michael Behe and others, because the flagella is the only example of a device that rotates on an axle - almost similar to a car's axle. Right off the start there was a problem with using flagella as evidence of divine planning since if it was true that God gave bacteria the flagella motors because of their efficiency, why didn't he give larger animals like us the same means of propulsion? How much faster could we get around if we had wheels, instead of legs? But recently, we haven't heard as much about flagella because two separate teams of researchers have found evidence that it could have evolved as a combination of simpler components that had been used for other purposes..........so now it's on to laminin.

The real picture of how nature works and how we ended up with such a diversity of plant and animal life didn't start coming together until Charles Darwin published Origin of the Species. At the time, Darwin had no knowledge of genetics, but by keen observation of how much diversity of life was dependent on geography, he knew that there had to be natural forces at work that were making incremental changes in plant and animal life.

The greatest popularizer of evolutionary theory in this day and age is Richard Dawkins, who has written several books for the general audience which explain how a complex feature doesn't have to be made all at once, but can be accomplished in nature with gradual, incremental adaptations. Unlike an intelligent designer, the designer in nature cannot see and is not conscious of what he is working towards.

http://www.amazon.com/Blind-Watchmaker-Evi...e/dp/0393315703 http://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Mount-Impro...s/dp/0393316823

The strange irony for me is that many conservative Christians in the U.S. I've discussed this with, have no problem accepting the principle of emergence in economics, defined as the "invisible hand" that controls the markets, but they can't accept that the same process could operate in nature!

[WIP]

WIP says:

You're wrong WIP..I do think we can be wrong. Our seeing isn't perfect. Have you ever heard of preponderance of the evidence? If l have a 4 piece puzzle and one piece is missing is it possible to know what the picture is? Sure it is..."This is called seeing through a glass darkly"

Say I have an event connected to scripture or some other thing in my life that happens and l think the Lord wants to show me something...Two other unrelated things happen or two other persons bring witness. That's 3 pieces. The missing piece is faith..

Are you going to admit to yourself first that you're seeing the picture with 3 pieces only?

I've been wrong. I've also cluttered the issues with my own speculation. (many times) But l'm growing and so far God's grace is my covering. I try to keep my heart right..not allowing myself to be drawn into useless arguing. I bring a message only. It's not up to me to prove it but l do exhort you to keep your eyes and ears open. Pay attention to life for God is ever revealing himself.

What I was trying to get at is that in order to accept evidences like feeling the presence of the Holy Spirit, you have to be completely confident that inner subjective feelings and experiences cannot be misinterpreted. I spent a little time studying Buddhism, which puts most of its emphasis on the mystical path to knowledge. I still find Buddhist meditation practises of value, but I could not accept their way of viewing the outside world as an illusion of the senses and the inner meditative experience as the only thing that is real. It was based on the same mistake of assuming that we can go within and completely understand our inner nature. Modern neuroscience is showing that we can deceive ourselves just as convincingly about what's going on inside our heads as we can about the outside world.

In order to accept faith as evidence, it has to be based on an assumption that the subjective experience of having faith cannot be wrong. Otherwise, faith is taking a risk of forming a belief that might be wrong. Some Christian theologians use this as the definition of faith: that there has to be an element of uncertainty. If you had 100% solid evidence, then you wouldn't need faith.

And finally, I certainly have kept my eyes more open than most people during my life if the number of times I've changed my mind about all sorts of beliefs counts as evidence. If you believe you have exclusive truth that the rest of the world needs, there's no problem with presenting that view in a tactful manner. But the problem I have with all forms of exclusive truth is that it automatically puts everyone else in a lesser category. Throughout history, this has been one of the key features of wars, persecutions and genocides. The Inquisitors during the Spanish Inquisition did not see themselves as bad men - they believed all non-Catholics were doomed to hell, so all means were permissible to extract confessions and force conversions. The Jehovah's Witnesses that come to my door occasionally are no threat to myself or anyone in the neighbourhood, but the attitude of everyone outside of our church will be cast in the lake of fire, affects how they interact, and more importantly, how their children interact with others outside of the religion. A religion that teaches everyone goes to heaven regardless of what they believe in, would be ideal in the present situation of the world.

[michele]

WIP says:

What I was trying to get at is that in order to accept evidences like feeling the presence of the Holy Spirit, you have to be completely confident that inner subjective feelings and experiences cannot be misinterpreted.

You're right WIP...the inner subjective witness must have confirmation by two or more witnesses and must line up with the tangible word of God. Buddhism doesn't have anything tangible. Just statues of men with mystical experiences. I was deeply into meditation at one time in my life. (no pun intended) I understand it's point...but l choose another.

When l was into this train of thought l could watch the compass spin...I could occasionally see auras...So what...I choose Jesus instead because he did it for me. I got tired of doing it myself and trusting in nothing.

I understand to some extent the power in the religious philosophy behind the martial arts..I took Tai Chi long enough to experience the chi moving me places l didn't want to go. See it isn't that l deny the reality of all the other ways...i just choose Jesus. Why? Because l like what he teaches. The simple truth of love and service. What's not to want? You don't have to accept him. You can trust in yourself or other men.. Been there done that.

Laminin...It's just a sign WIP... There's lots of those general type witnesses. But you can miss the forest for the trees if you look to hard and long. There's a need to step back and get perspective...

[WIP]

WIP says:

You're right WIP...the inner subjective witness must have confirmation by two or more witnesses and must line up with the tangible word of God. Buddhism doesn't have anything tangible. Just statues of men with mystical experiences. I was deeply into meditation at one time in my life. (no pun intended) I understand it's point...but l choose another.

When l was into this train of thought l could watch the compass spin...I could occasionally see auras...So what...I choose Jesus instead because he did it for me. I got tired of doing it myself and trusting in nothing.

I'm not sure what kind of meditation you were doing, but I know I have never seen auras! The purpose of meditation techniques is one of using consentrative attention to discipline the mind and have greater control over our thoughts and experiences. Neuroscientists who've studied all sorts of different practitioners of advanced meditation techniques (from Buddhist monks to Carmelite Nuns) find hightened activity in the pre-frontal lobes of the cerebral cortex - the "executive" part of the brain where our higher thinking is done. The improved attitude and behaviour that many meditators claim to experience could be a result of developing that part which does our higher reasoning and makes us less susceptible to our emotional responses that come from the amygdala.

With that said, whether there is a physical benefit to meditation or not, I find it a little sad that religious doctrine forced you to stop your practise. To me, the major proselytizing religions of Islam and Christianity have destroyed indigenous religious cultures and traditions that have beneficial aspects, all in the name of religious purity.

I understand to some extent the power in the religious philosophy behind the martial arts..I took Tai Chi long enough to experience the chi moving me places l didn't want to go. See it isn't that l deny the reality of all the other ways...i just choose Jesus. Why? Because l like what he teaches. The simple truth of love and service. What's not to want? You don't have to accept him. You can trust in yourself or other men.. Been there done that.

Laminin...It's just a sign WIP... There's lots of those general type witnesses. But you can miss the forest for the trees if you look to hard and long. There's a need to step back and get perspective...

Okay! I step back every now and then, but now that I'm down the road I've been travelling on for awhile, it's going to take something really compelling to make me drop it all for something totally different; I've already had to do this too many times in my life.

[michele]

The kind of meditation l did took me beyond most teachers of the practice. It took me to places that were without controls. These dangerous places on the dark side of the DMZ gave me a wake up call out of those deep states of meditation.

There's a lot to be said about being still before the Lord...but we aren't to be blank receivers and prostitute our minds to any old radio station..(say yuk three times)

When l stopped my 'practice' l didn't know any religious doctrine. I only knew Sunday School stories..Noah's ark...Easter and Christmas...I didn't even know Jesus was suppose to come back... Never heard it once in my life until l was in my late twenties. Everything l stopped l stopped because my conscience showed me it went to far..not because of anything else. In fact it taught me to really believe...It drove me to Christ. Belief is generic. I knew l'd taken a wrong turn.

The really compelling thing is rest. The gospel is so simple and yet so complex. I had enough of the complex. I choose to rest in the simplistic part of Christianity. Jesus as Lord of all and his message of Loving God with all your heart etc. and your neighbor as yourself...not hard to understand unless one chooses to make it hard. I've been involved in social services in one way or another ever since then..It's what l do.

[WIP]

The kind of meditation l did took me beyond most teachers of the practice. It took me to places that were without controls. These dangerous places on the dark side of the DMZ gave me a wake up call out of those deep states of meditation.

There's a lot to be said about being still before the Lord...but we aren't to be blank receivers and prostitute our minds to any old radio station..(say yuk three times)

When l stopped my 'practice' l didn't know any religious doctrine. I only knew Sunday School stories..Noah's ark...Easter and Christmas...I didn't even know Jesus was suppose to come back... Never heard it once in my life until l was in my late twenties. Everything l stopped l stopped because my conscience showed me it went to far..not because of anything else. In fact it taught me to really believe...It drove me to Christ. Belief is generic. I knew l'd taken a wrong turn.

The really compelling thing is rest. The gospel is so simple and yet so complex. I had enough of the complex. I choose to rest in the simplistic part of Christianity. Jesus as Lord of all and his message of Loving God with all your heart etc. and your neighbor as yourself...not hard to understand unless one chooses to make it hard. I've been involved in social services in one way or another ever since then..It's what l do.

I'm still a little bewildered about what kind of meditation you were doing! I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but the basic mindfulness and concentrative meditation techniques that are taught to beginners don't create any kind of hallucinatory experiences. You might experience a sense of euphoria or a feeling of oneness if you practise every day, but what you're describing is something more akin to Buddhist monks who spend hours each day for years at a time in meditation. Most of us have busy lives and don't have time to devote even if we wanted to.

Meditation is a practise of mind-control, not losing control! To me, the "speaking in tongues" practise that many Pentacostals do is more of a risk of losing control since the person deliberately throws themself into a trance-like state.

[michele]

God has the real...the enemy has the counterfiet..There is no middle road...only dangerous deception.

The enemy bares much fruit in the church setting because of a lack of knowledge... (My people perish for a lack of knowledge)

It takes a good understanding of the word and the help of the Holy Spirit to not be fooled in todays church and world.

[Oleg Bach]

God has the real...the enemy has the counterfiet..There is no middle road...only dangerous deception.

The enemy bares much fruit in the church setting because of a lack of knowledge... (My people perish for a lack of knowledge)

It takes a good understanding of the word and the help of the Holy Spirit to not be fooled in todays church and world.

So you wanna know what a fundie is do you? There is one definition in my mind. That being someone who lacks the intellectual and spiritual capacity to understand what Christwas talking about. Second - a person that mistakes Paulism as devine word...and a person that believes emmaculate conception has some thing to do with Jesus---oops sorry that's a Catholic. Point being is that most do not give good and intense analysis of the word and most do not search for the truth..but accept things as blurted out by so-called followers who do the opposite to the doctrine of the Christ. Which makes them practicers of anti-christism...which are most Christians...odd..they wait for the anti-christ and in reality are waiting for themselves...back to the emmaculate conception..it is the perfect conception by the perfect loving woman---It was the conception of Mary -NOT Jesus..ask most Catholics and fundies and they don't know and the church does NOT correct them..so off they go being funamentally stupid..and stupidity and evil are brothers!