$1 billion Federal Aid Package & Employment - Why?

[August1991]

Why am I reading about a federal aid package when Canada's unemployment is the lowest in over 30 years?

Canada's unemployment rate fell to a 33-year low of 5.8 per cent in January from six per cent in the previous month as 46,000 jobs were added to the economy, four times more than expected.

Statistics Canada said Friday that all the net total of new jobs were full-time positions in the private sector.

...

While the job picture was strong across Canada, the agency said Alberta, British Columbia, and Newfoundland and Labrador all saw record employment rates in January.

Meanwhile, wage growth remained strong last month, with a year-over-year increase in average hourly wages of 4.9 per cent for the second consecutive month. "This was well above the most recent increase of 2.4 per cent in consumer prices," Statistics Canada said.

"January also marked the sixth consecutive month with a year-over-year increase in hourly wages at or above four per cent."

CanWest

Most provinces saw their unemployment rate fall in January, with Quebec setting a 33-year low with a jobless rate of 6.8 per cent. Ontario's jobless rate fell to 6.3 per cent, although Canada's most populous province remains a weak point on the job creation front, rising only 1.5 per cent over the past year.

CP

These are well-paid, full time jobs, in the private sector, all across Canada - even Quebec.

Funds from a $1-billion federal relief package for laid-off forestry and manufacturing workers across Canada could begin flowing within weeks following all-party agreement in the Commons on Tuesday to fast-track legislation creating the fund.

Despite some last-minute haggling, opposition MPs gave unanimous consent to the Conservative government’s motion to approve in one fell swoop legislation creating the $1-billion community trust fund.

...

New Democrat MP Thomas Mulcair of Quebec said the government was forced to change course because linking the aid to budget approval was indefensible.

“They realized that they were in an untenable position. How can you continue to justify blackmail when it’s families, regions and localities that are suffering the most because of their wrong-headed policies?” he told reporters.

Bloc Quebecois Leader Gilles Duceppe dismissed the package as inadequate, and urged the government to broaden and deepen the assistance. The Liberals echoed the sentiment.

“We don’t think it is adequate, but at least it is something,” Liberal House leader Ralph Goodale told the Commons.

CanWest

Those terrible, stingy Tories - starving widows and orphans.

You have to admire this kind of journalism though:

Two rusted logging trailers sit abandoned in front of the Bellerive Kanenda sawmill in Mont- Laurier, Quebec. Snow rises four feet deep on the loading docks. A gate blows in the wind.

The impact of the U.S. housing slump is spreading in western Quebec's sparsely populated Antoine-Labelle county, where 17 plants have closed since residential construction began to plummet two years ago. The region has lost more than 10 percent of its 18,000 jobs, prompting Kanenda's former workers to buy the bankrupt facility and try to reopen it.

``We're now at a really critical juncture.'' said Yvon Cormier, head of a development agency for the region. ``When something goes wrong with the U.S. market, we feel it immediately.''

Bloomberg

Who said anecdote is not the plural of data?

The average journalist wants a heartbreak story - if it bleeds, it leads - but the truth is something else again. I think there is also a slight bias in the media to stories that make the Tories look bad. Similarly, I guess the Tories had to dole out this cash for political reasons, to buy votes in some areas and placate the opposition. And it appears too that the Tories wisely limited the damage to $1 billion.

The point is that economy's change. Some things go up, other things go down. Technology and trade mean that we change the way we do things. Some jobs become obsolete or unnecessary while other new tasks suddenly appear. It is an illusion to believe in permanence or stability.

The other point is that some people will always manage to get money out of the government.

[jdobbin]

The other point is that some people will always manage to get money out of the government.

What you didn't mention here is that the U.S. forestry industry might protest this aid package as a unfair subsidy to the the trade panel.

All of this is just part of the Conservative spending spree which the Opposition in this case is all too willing to support.

[White Doors]

I think the majority of this one billion was to aid one industry towns make the transition away from these dying areas. If the liberals were in power, they would be trying to re-open them.

An important distinction.

[Keepitsimple]

What you didn't mention here is that the U.S. forestry industry might protest this aid package as a unfair subsidy to the the trade panel.

All of this is just part of the Conservative spending spree which the Opposition in this case is all too willing to support.

Actually Dobber, that's not totally accurate. They will support it but at the same time, the NDP and Bloc say it's not nearly enough. As usual, we're not quite sure where the Liberals stand - except that they would do things differently - which probably means more of the same old Corporate Welfare - dollar-for-dollar matching with the provinces where the money is eventually handed over to Companies - either directly or as interest-free "loans" that never seem to get re-paid. That's been done for years with the Auto companies and as a result, they never really changed the way that they did business - and look at them now. As long as Union dominated industries can count on government handouts, they will do nothing but tinker with the status-quo. But hey - it buys votes and keeps the Unions onside.

[blueblood]

Why wouldn't the feds just do what they did with the grain industry, give tax breaks to ethanol companies and burn all of that excess wood. Wood is dirt cheap right now and oil is still pricy. It creates jobs and gets a return. This would work well in the forestry sector as there is few inputs to take away from the returns.

So some trees get ground into sawdust, who cares?

[jdobbin]

They will support it but at the same time, the NDP and Bloc say it's not nearly enough. As usual, we're not quite sure where the Liberals stand - except that they would do things differently - which probably means more of the same old Corporate Welfare - dollar-for-dollar matching with the provinces where the money is eventually handed over to Companies - either directly or as interest-free "loans" that never seem to get re-paid. That's been done for years with the Auto companies and as a result, they never really changed the way that they did business - and look at them now. As long as Union dominated industries can count on government handouts, they will do nothing but tinker with the status-quo. But hey - it buys votes and keeps the Unions onside.

The Liberals supported the bill. I believe it will result in a trade compliant from the U.S.

Corporate welfare is what the Tories do for the oil industry.

[jdobbin]

Why wouldn't the feds just do what they did with the grain industry, give tax breaks to ethanol companies and burn all of that excess wood. Wood is dirt cheap right now and oil is still pricy. It creates jobs and gets a return. This would work well in the forestry sector as there is few inputs to take away from the returns.

So some trees get ground into sawdust, who cares?

It is a waste of money. There are plenty of jobs now. The economy is on fire.

[August1991]

It is a waste of money. There are plenty of jobs now. The economy is on fire.

I don't mean to be partisan but that's not what the past (Liberal) finance minister is saying:

We don’t think it is adequate, but at least it is something,” Liberal House leader Ralph Goodale told the Commons.

Link

Goodale wants to tax-and-spend. If I were a Conservative, I'd provoke an election on such terms. Why?

Even poor people know that tax money doesn't go anywhere. Higher taxes just mean more money for bureaucrats.

[jdobbin]

I don't mean to be partisan but that's not what the past (Liberal) finance minister is saying.

Goodale wants to tax-and-spend. If I were a Conservative, I'd provoke an election on such terms. Why?

Even poor people know that tax money doesn't go anywhere. Higher taxes just mean more money for bureaucrats.

I happen to disagree with Goodale and all of Parliament on this bill. It is a waste of money given the job opportunities out there. I'd be surprised if there is any benefit to this type of spending.

[August1991]

I happen to disagree with Goodale and all of Parliament on this bill. It is a waste of money given the job opportunities out there.

Dobbin, you're a credit to the Liberal Party.

I'll go further. You defend (federal) Liberals on this forum when most posters here don't like Liberals. My hat is off because you do it intelligently.

Chapeau !

Edited February 9, 2008 by August1991

[msj]

Who said anecdote is not the plural of data?

Kettle meet pot, pot meet kettle.

For a guy who starts an entire thread about the alleged poverty of Canada based on your own, and extremely limited, driving experience in the US this is a rather strange statement.

Not that anecdotal evidence can't be useful - of course it is only useful when it can demonstrate a point that is backed up with further, and more reliable, evidence.

Goodale wants to tax-and-spend. If I were a Conservative, I'd provoke an election on such terms.

Have you even bothered to look at what the CPC has done with their budgets for 2006 and 2007? Spending continues to increase at a rate faster than inflation + population growth.

[blueblood]

It is a waste of money. There are plenty of jobs now. The economy is on fire.

Pardon the pun, but why not throw gas on this fire?

a tax break to a business is not a waste of money, the revenue generated and the boost to the economy offsets the costs.

Quebec needs to get its economy in order. It is a huge deadweight, why would you want this to continue? Taxing the crap out of businesses is a poor way of doing things. Must I bring up Ireland again? Why are the Liberals content with mediocrity?

[msj]

Pardon the pun, but why not throw gas on this fire?

a tax break to a business is not a waste of money, the revenue generated and the boost to the economy offsets the costs.

Quebec needs to get its economy in order. It is a huge deadweight, why would you want this to continue? Taxing the crap out of businesses is a poor way of doing things. Must I bring up Ireland again? Why are the Liberals content with mediocrity?

The reason you don't throw gas onto a fire (in economic terms) is because you end up with inflation.

But, given the problems in the US and there likely effect on Canada, who knows whether or not we should be considering throwing some gas onto the fire to try and keep it going.

As for business tax breaks - they have been implemented and continue to be implemented until about 2012. Corporate tax rates continue to (finally) go down.

The real problem, however, is if the US takes us down with them. If that happens then the CPC has wasted its wad on a GST tax cut when they would have been better off given us income tax cuts. After all, what good is a decrease in consumption tax when people are consuming less and need money to reduce debt loads? Not that Canada is as bad as the US but if a recession comes here too then we will retrench.

If Canada comes close to, or enters, a recession then the CPC is at least partly responsible with their irresponsible and ad hoc tax policies.

[jdobbin]

Pardon the pun, but why not throw gas on this fire?

a tax break to a business is not a waste of money, the revenue generated and the boost to the economy offsets the costs.

Quebec needs to get its economy in order. It is a huge deadweight, why would you want this to continue? Taxing the crap out of businesses is a poor way of doing things. Must I bring up Ireland again? Why are the Liberals content with mediocrity?

Throwing gas on the fire is inflationary and inflation can hurt everyone.

Why are the Tories trying to stoke inflation. We are already seeing cost overruns for business expansion because of inflation in the cost of goods and services.

[jdobbin]

Dobbin, you're a credit to the Liberal Party.

I'll go further. You defend (federal) Liberals on this forum when most posters here don't like Liberals. My hat is off because you do it intelligently.

Thank you. This aid project that all the parties support stoking inflation. We already have supports in place for businesses that lay of workers. It is called Employment Insurance. The government also has several business development banks and grants and loans that innovative people can take advantage of.

What the government should not be doing is tossing even more money into one industry towns and risk stoking inflation and a NAFTA or WTO challenge from forestry industry types south of the border.

[blueblood]

Throwing gas on the fire is inflationary and inflation can hurt everyone.

Why are the Tories trying to stoke inflation. We are already seeing cost overruns for business expansion because of inflation in the cost of goods and services.

nice spin. Why should we contribute to these people being unemployed and lazy? Why shouldn't Quebecer's be allowed to work? It's funny how you try and bring down having a good economy with inflation. The more wealth generated is good for the country.

Deflation is a much worse problem than inflation. If inflation is such a problem in Quebec, that half assed gov't can lower taxes and their minimum wage/labor laws so people can keep more of what they earn. The americans do this and they have lower gas prices and cheaper goods.

[jdobbin]

nice spin. Why should we contribute to these people being unemployed and lazy? Why shouldn't Quebecer's be allowed to work? It's funny how you try and bring down having a good economy with inflation. The more wealth generated is good for the country.

Deflation is a much worse problem than inflation. If inflation is such a problem in Quebec, that half assed gov't can lower taxes and their minimum wage/labor laws so people can keep more of what they earn. The americans do this and they have lower gas prices and cheaper goods.

Inflation is no spin. It is a threat to the economy and throwing gas on it will contribute to the problem. There is no evidence of deflation in Quebec or anywhere else in Canada. The employment figures released this week show that the entire country is doing well. What you think generates more wealth actually makes goods and services more expensive. The cost of construction is causing some businesses to think about delaying their expansion plans because they keep rising. One example: Plans for dam projects in Quebec keep changing because the costs of construction workers has been rising due to shortages as a result of a hot economy.

Employment insurance is not for lazy people. It is for people who have lost their jobs through shutdowns and other circumstances not of their own fault. This is a good program to help families adjust to the loss of a job but if government swoops in to bail out the industry, it results in waste and often failure in the end. Think about how the Manitoba government thought they could run bus manufacturing.

I think you forget that Quebec did lower their taxes in the last budget. Their economy is doing well. They are having problems not because of a slowdown in U.S. demand but overall Quebec is still clicking along.

This bail out is for single industry towns. American forestry companies have already said they are thinking of challenging the bail-out if it looks like it is subsidizing industry. The government can help by trying to make sure trade barriers come down but throwing money into the region is not likely to forestall failure.

[blueblood]

Inflation is no spin. It is a threat to the economy and throwing gas on it will contribute to the problem. There is no evidence of deflation in Quebec or anywhere else in Canada. The employment figures released this week show that the entire country is doing well. What you think generates more wealth actually makes goods and services more expensive. The cost of construction is causing some businesses to think about delaying their expansion plans because they keep rising. One example: Plans for dam projects in Quebec keep changing because the costs of construction workers has been rising due to shortages as a result of a hot economy.

Employment insurance is not for lazy people. It is for people who have lost their jobs through shutdowns and other circumstances not of their own fault. This is a good program to help families adjust to the loss of a job but if government swoops in to bail out the industry, it results in waste and often failure in the end. Think about how the Manitoba government thought they could run bus manufacturing.

I think you forget that Quebec did lower their taxes in the last budget. Their economy is doing well. They are having problems not because of a slowdown in U.S. demand but overall Quebec is still clicking along.

This bail out is for single industry towns. American forestry companies have already said they are thinking of challenging the bail-out if it looks like it is subsidizing industry. The government can help by trying to make sure trade barriers come down but throwing money into the region is not likely to forestall failure.

I'm not supporting a billion dollar cheque, I think that's nuts as well. I think the better way of helping out is to find another use for that excess wood which can be achieved by tax cuts for R&D and for start up companies using the wood, if that means burning the wood than so be it. Quebec gets richer and has another product for export.

Remember costs are not the only thing that goes up with inflation, our dollar rises, and our wages rise as well.

[jdobbin]

I'm not supporting a billion dollar cheque, I think that's nuts as well. I think the better way of helping out is to find another use for that excess wood which can be achieved by tax cuts for R&D and for start up companies using the wood, if that means burning the wood than so be it. Quebec gets richer and has another product for export.

Remember costs are not the only thing that goes up with inflation, our dollar rises, and our wages rise as well.

Ethanol causes more greenhouse gases than oil. Latest study came out last Thursday.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/st...p-4716644c.html

CANADA and many other countries tout biofuels as a way to cut greenhouse gas emissions, but new research says energy crops can greatly increase the amount of carbon dioxide entering the atmosphere.

Two studies published Thursday say that far from reducing emissions, vast amounts of carbon are released as grasslands, wetlands and forests are cleared to plant corn and other crops used to feed the growing global appetite for biofuels.

The problem, say the researchers, is that large amounts of carbon dioxide waft into the atmosphere as native vegetation that was on the land either decays or burns.

"The overwhelming bulk of biofuels we've produced have increased global warming," says Timothy Searchinger, an environmental lawyer and visiting scholar at Princeton University and lead author of one of the reports in the journal Science.

[margrace]

Why wouldn't the feds just do what they did with the grain industry, give tax breaks to ethanol companies and burn all of that excess wood. Wood is dirt cheap right now and oil is still pricy. It creates jobs and gets a return. This would work well in the forestry sector as there is few inputs to take away from the returns.

So some trees get ground into sawdust, who cares?

At $80 a single cord for wood I wouldn't consider it dirt cheap.

[margrace]

It is a waste of money. There are plenty of jobs now. The economy is on fire.

On the news tonight a company just announced that it will be moving out of the country with the lose of 1200 jobs, they made bumbers for ford, Another in Barrie that makes car parts is also moving out, lose of $300 jobs.

There are lots of people looking for work right now, there is something funny going on in the figures we are getting. Does Harper have his hand in this too?

[jdobbin]

On the news tonight a company just announced that it will be moving out of the country with the lose of 1200 jobs, they made bumbers for ford, Another in Barrie that makes car parts is also moving out, lose of $300 jobs.

There are lots of people looking for work right now, there is something funny going on in the figures we are getting. Does Harper have his hand in this too?

Manufacturing is indeed suffering due to the economic problems south of the border and competition from Asian and European makes of cars. The government can help somewhat with Employment Insurance, re-training and research and development. They can lower corporate taxes.

What the government can't do in make North American car makers better manufacturers. Ford, GM and Chrysler went after the big truck and SUV market and ignored the car market. High oil prices means people will buy cars others than the North American makers.

[August1991]

Kettle meet pot, pot meet kettle.

For a guy who starts an entire thread about the alleged poverty of Canada based on your own, and extremely limited, driving experience in the US this is a rather strange statement.

Not that anecdotal evidence can't be useful - of course it is only useful when it can demonstrate a point that is backed up with further, and more reliable, evidence.

Have you even bothered to look at what the CPC has done with their budgets for 2006 and 2007? Spending continues to increase at a rate faster than inflation + population growth.

Touché.

Anyway, for all I know, the unemployment rate in China is very low but that doesn't make China a rich society.

Or considering your idea at face value, I wonder how taking $1 billion from one group of people and giving it to another group of people really makes a country overall better off?

There's the administrative costs of moving the money around, and surely the group who loses the money will find ways to avoid handing over the cash. I'm sure too that the group of potential recipients will jockey to get a bigger share. As they say, it's costly to hand out money for free and a government that indulges in this too often just seems to impoverish everyone.

[blueblood]

Ethanol causes more greenhouse gases than oil. Latest study came out last Thursday.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/st...p-4716644c.html

Who cares? We're supposed to piss away rural economic growth because of your ego??

15 dollars/ bushell wheat and 13.25 canola. And some extra oil for export.

Do that for the trees and we get even more oil for export.

So people are supposed to go unemployed and live off of social services because some people say that job is wrong?

[jdobbin]

Who cares? We're supposed to piss away rural economic growth because of your ego??

15 dollars/ bushell wheat and 13.25 canola. And some extra oil for export.

Do that for the trees and we get even more oil for export.

So people are supposed to go unemployed and live off of social services because some people say that job is wrong?

I don't know that greenhouse gases have anything to do with my ego.

Ethanol has been sold as a green energy. It isn't. It is doing more damage than oil is doing now.

Unemployment is at historic lows. If there is to be rural development, it shouldn't come by investing in an energy scheme that is worse than what we have presently. It shouldn't be done if are going to face retaliation from NAFTA and the WTO.