The truth about School violence

[Muddy]

http://www.torontosun.com/Comment/2008/01/...782988-sun.html

So much truth to digest in one column.

[M.Dancer]

http://www.torontosun.com/Comment/2008/01/...782988-sun.html

So much truth to digest in one column.

And absolutely no indication why I should read it.

[Muddy]

And absolutely no indication why I should read it.

Then by all means don`t. Especially if it offends you. Are you a teacher perhaps?

[Moxie]

Thankyou Muddy, he/she's bang on, lack of discipline is the problem in our schools. Society handed the rearing of their children over to teachers and when things get rough they demand these children get a free pass from violent behavior. Parents need to step up to the plate and stop blaming everyone but them for their lack of parental concern regarding discipline.

[Kitchener]

An article by John Snobelen, the school dropout named Education Minister by failed teacher Mike Harris, in order to display his contempt for the portfolio? The John Snobelen caught on tape proposing to sabotage education in Ontario, while he was Minister? And who then actually lived in the USA while supposedly serving as an Ontario MPP?

It is extraordinarily hard to fathom why any thinking person would take Snobelen's word for anything, and in particular anything to do with education in Ontario.

But the Sun chain known its audience, I guess.

[Leafless]

http://www.torontosun.com/Comment/2008/01/...782988-sun.html

So much truth to digest in one column.

That is only one part of the problem.

IMO, the main problem is the acceptance of corrupt values by parents who instill these values into the minds of their children.

The other part of this problem is the importation of races and different cultures that do not share the same values and morals as those Canadians who's values and morals are still important.

[margrace]

That is only one part of the problem.

IMO, the main problem is the acceptance of corrupt values by parents who instill these values into the minds of their children.

The other part of this problem is the importation of races and different cultures that do not share the same values and morals as those Canadians who's values and morals are still important.

A friend of mine taught school in a small northern city in Ontario in the 50s and 60s. This was a Kindergarden to grade 8 school. The teachers never walked in the halls alone because it wasn't safe. When my daughter went to a high school in the south in the early 60S the school was locked down from the time school started until dismissl time.

There were hardly any racial minorities at that time in either schools.

One of the worst school systems in the US was the Oaklahoma system. Parents had to actually raise money to pay teachers. I have a friend who lived there and it was a disaster. This is where Snobelen got his ideas.

[M.Dancer]

Then by all means don`t. Especially if it offends you. Are you a teacher perhaps?

No but I believe this isn't the place to simply post a news link. How about posting a pull quote of a paragraph that strikes you as adroit. Or at least a comment from your self that is something more than Hooray?

[JB Globe]

Society handed the rearing of their children over to teachers and when things get rough they demand these children get a free pass from violent behavior. Parents need to step up to the plate and stop blaming everyone but them for their lack of parental concern regarding discipline.

Did you even read the article? What he's saying is that the entire purpose of education for kids from families with inattentive, or straight up bad parents, is that it should fill the void. Education in his words, is supposed to be a safety net for kids from bad families. It's supposed to be the one thing that breaks the cycle (ie - these kids grow up and pass on the bad traits they learned from their parents onto their kids).

Frankly, if a parent doesn't care about their kid to the point of neglect, they're not going to care when a bunch of people start chastising them, either. They simply don't care.

[Wild Bill]

An article by John Snobelen, the school dropout named Education Minister by failed teacher Mike Harris, in order to display his contempt for the portfolio? The John Snobelen caught on tape proposing to sabotage education in Ontario, while he was Minister? And who then actually lived in the USA while supposedly serving as an Ontario MPP?

It is extraordinarily hard to fathom why any thinking person would take Snobelen's word for anything, and in particular anything to do with education in Ontario.

But the Sun chain known its audience, I guess.

Geez, talk about elitism! Just because you obviously don't like the man doesn't automatically make anything he says wrong. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day!

But then, since I've read a few copies of the Sun I guess my brain must be fried and I can't have an informed opinion, as you said.

Don't you think you're being just a teensy bit arrogant? Heck, I'm perfectly willing to admit that Dalton is not a complete dolt. Or even Bob Rae, for that matter, although I will never believe that his stupid song "We're in the Same Boat Now" is any better than that irritating Barney the Dinosaur theme song...

Can you say "Ad hominem"?

[Kitchener]

Geez, talk about elitism! Just because you obviously don't like the man doesn't automatically make anything he says wrong. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day!

What's elitist about pointing out that your source is a self-confessed saboteur or deceiver about educational matters? If you want to trust him anyhow, well, that's your lookout. You could also get your palm read for $100, and all I would do is point out that palm-reading is, like John Snobelen's statements on education, utterly unreliable.

Can you say "Ad hominem"?

Indeed I can. Better yet: I understand it. Ad hominem is non-fallacious when it bears on the reliability of someone's testimony. Since Snobelen has a track record of lying about education in Ontario, and damaging it through his policies, it is not a fallacy to point this out when evaluating his proffered opinions and statements of alleged fact.

[margrace]

Geez, talk about elitism! Just because you obviously don't like the man doesn't automatically make anything he says wrong. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day!

But then, since I've read a few copies of the Sun I guess my brain must be fried and I can't have an informed opinion, as you said.

Don't you think you're being just a teensy bit arrogant? Heck, I'm perfectly willing to admit that Dalton is not a complete dolt. Or even Bob Rae, for that matter, although I will never believe that his stupid song "We're in the Same Boat Now" is any better than that irritating Barney the Dinosaur theme song...

Can you say "Ad hominem"?

If he was such a good guy consider that his electors kicked him out the first chance they got. They evidently weren't impressed by him.

[Muddy]

You can dislike the man if you wish but he is right about discipline. After a very long and somewhat successful life it has been my observation that you can`t teach anything unless you have the attention of your pupil.

With disorder in the class ,those children with a thirst for knowledge are the ones who suffer.

[Keepitsimple]

An article by John Snobelen, the school dropout named Education Minister by failed teacher Mike Harris, in order to display his contempt for the portfolio? The John Snobelen caught on tape proposing to sabotage education in Ontario, while he was Minister? And who then actually lived in the USA while supposedly serving as an Ontario MPP?

It is extraordinarily hard to fathom why any thinking person would take Snobelen's word for anything, and in particular anything to do with education in Ontario.

But the Sun chain known its audience, I guess.

How quickly we forget! The reason Harris came to power was because the province was mired in debt and companies and jobs were fleeing Ontario. With regards to Education, the Teacher's Union was in control of everything - from the quality of the carriculum to the quality of the teachers - and of course, teacher salaries and benefits. The de-centralized school boards were a perfect target for Union bargaining. They would pick on the weakest board they could find, hammer out a settlement - and then demand the same from all the other boards. It amounted to blackmail. That's exactly what got Ford, GM, and Chrysler into the mess they have today. As an employer of supposedly highly-skilled technology people, it was frustrating and dis-heartening to see students come from colleges and Universities and not be able to properly express themselves in writing - many couldn't spell, let alone create coherent sentences. It's almost impossible to fight the Unions because they know nothing other than traditional bargaining - you really want to go from point A to point Z but the bargaining process only takes you to point B. Unions protect jobs and that means the status quo. Incremental baby steps were not what our Education system needed. It was in crisis.....but Snobelon knew that to get the movement that was required, that crisis had to be visible. The basic changes that were made by Harris/Snobelen have proven to be sound - the carriculum has been updated and student testing is showing improvement. The centralizing of bargaining has removed the debilitating board-by-board union blackmail. The funding formula is a challenge but the problem is that it has not been refined or adjusted as Snobelen knew that it would have to be. I am in favour of letting local municipalities add a maximum 10% top-up through an education levy if they so choose. The proof that these basic structural changes have worked is that the current Liberal government - in power with a majority for more than 5 years - have chosen not to make any changes.

Edited February 6, 2008 by Keepitsimple

[Rue]

You can dislike the man if you wish but he is right about discipline. After a very long and somewhat successful life it has been my observation that you can`t teach anything unless you have the attention of your pupil.

With disorder in the class ,those children with a thirst for knowledge are the ones who suffer.

Would you please stop talking common sense. It ruins everything. Say something illogical and emotional. I can't handle this. You keep writing in common sense posts. Its going to set a precedent.

[myata]

This is what I got from following the link:

"The story you are searching for is available in its entirety via email, fax or mail for $12.00 (plus GST), payable with credit card (include expiry date).

"

P.S the subtitle to the report reads: "The slow, systemic abandonment of any effort to instil discipline brought us to this point". No indication of which "point" and how it compares to the earlier "points", to make such very long reaching conclusions. I'm sure it's self evident to some, but to the rest, providing some logical and factual argumentation would be the place to start.