Dion wants NATO to invade Pakistan!

[weaponeer]

There is no doubt that Dion has no idea what the hell is going on at the best of times. I am no great fan of the Libs, but even they deserve better than him, he is useless.

Pakistan is the problem, the 700 lbs gorilla in the room nobody wants to talk about. We (NATO) have spent far too long kissing their asses with regards to Afghanistan, trying not to offend them. Canadians are getting killed over there, our government needs to start hammering Pakistan on the diplomatic front as well as in the media. We need to either embarass them into action, or do it ourselves. Mackay cannot really say to much himself, it has to be a coordinated effort with all the NATO allies.

Our government should be pushing for more NATO troops, and for NATO to start pressing Pakistan for serious action.

[M.Dancer]

They certainly get misinterpreted by the right wing in Canada. I think I heard hysterical claims on invading Pakistan.

I surprised you would call Dion hysterical. Not that I doubt he doesn't have the potential. i saw him last night struggling to exract his foot from his mouth....him and gate have something the could share ..foot in mouth disease...while curable in an appointed US department head, fatal in a leader of the Liberals

[Shakeyhands]

Our government should be pushing for more NATO troops, and for NATO to start pressing Pakistan for serious action.

Then I take it you must agree with Dion on what he purportedly said...... kind of.

[jdobbin]

I surprised you would call Dion hysterical. Not that I doubt he doesn't have the potential. i saw him last night struggling to exract his foot from his mouth....him and gate have something the could share ..foot in mouth disease...while curable in an appointed US department head, fatal in a leader of the Liberals

His communication skills are still very poor. He sounds defensive a lot of the time. However, I still never saw any indication that he called for an invasion of Pakistan despite the claims of the Tories and Pakistan.

[jdobbin]

Our government should be pushing for more NATO troops, and for NATO to start pressing Pakistan for serious action.

I totally agree. I think that the government is attempting to do that but until recently, the call for more troops have fallen on deaf ears.

The issue of Pakistan could explode in 2008 and the very things Dion is talking about now will probably have to be considered.

[M.Dancer]

I totally agree. I think that the government is attempting to do that but until recently, the call for more troops have fallen on deaf ears.

So the extra US marines and others are what then?

[Keepitsimple]

Jdobbin...once again, I admire your tenacity as the resident Liberal defender/apologist.....but would it hurt to simply say that Dion made a dumb comment and leave it at that? Everyone knows that the US and NATO have been using their best diplomatic efforts to get Pakistan to take more action for a long time. Dion's clumsy attempts to "get into the game" are simply naive, Johnny-come-Lately musings that undermine any real strategic diplomacy. An unstable Islamist country that has 150 million people is not that is to be treated with "musings".

Edited January 18, 2008 by Keepitsimple

[M.Dancer]

"One day, we are going to have to act because our soldiers are cleaning out some areas, but in fact very often they are only clean in principle. The insurgents go take refuge in Pakistan and they are going to come back (to Afghanistan) at the earliest opportunity. This could last very long if we don't tackle the problems that often originate from Pakistan,"

oUR sOLDIERS.......REFUGE IN PAKISTAN, Tackle, problem, pAKISTAN....

When I look at in again I see clearly he was talking about CIDA

[jdobbin]

Jdobbin...once again, I admire your tenacity as the resident Liberal defender/apologist.....but would it hurt to simply say that Dion made a dumb comment and leave it at that? Everyone knows that the US and NATO have been using their best diplomatic efforts to get Pakistan to take more action for a long time. Dion's clumsy attempts to "get into the game" are simply naive, Johnny-come-Lately musings that undermine any real strategic diplomacy.

I think right wing attempts to make this about an invasion of Pakistan are dumb but that's just me.

[jdobbin]

So the extra US marines and others are what then?

I said until recently that our constant refrain of more troops have fallen on deaf ears. Sad to say but it looks like Bush was only motivated after Democrat and Republican candidates called for more troops. Likewise, more troops from Australia only seemed to be forthcoming when the conservative government there was defeated.

[Keepitsimple]

I think right wing attempts to make this about an invasion of Pakistan are dumb but that's just me.

I agree with that statement - I wish you'd agree that he made ill-advised comments.

[Army Guy]

Two years is not short term. Entire wars have been fought and won in less time.

Name one, UN or Canadian military mission that has been resolved in less than 2 years....

The Tories extended the mission another two years and want to extend it another two. We set no benchmarks and have no real offer of help where we are.

Those sound like bench marks to me, every 2 years forces the government to have a look at the mission from top to bottom.

Martin was right about one thing: As long as our forces are engaged in Afghanistan, we are limited to any other action in the world including Canada no matter how serious. We can't even adequately train new people because Forces are either in Afghanistan, getting read to deploy to Afghanistan or just got back from there

You have a piont, we are not able to help anyone else....Do to our current size...a chioce made by previous governments , a choice a might add that most Canadians where fine with...so which one is it to big or to small...

As for domestic ops, with only one battle group deployed at a time and one in training in Canada that still leaves you with 2 full brigades plus countless navy and airforce pers to deal with anything that comes our way....

DND's response to the ICE storm was not effected by our deployment to Afgan....and Bosina at the time....

As for training new people Yes i'll agree with you we are having problems, because of commitments...but don't think for a second that Mr dion is going to solve that by pulling us out of afgan....his plans include sending us back into the fire to some shit hole like Dafur....so how is our withdrawal going to help that problem....

It seems that Canada setting a firm deadline but remaining committed to other deployments in Afghanistan shows our committment to NATO

Does it really, kind of like getting pulled from the ice and sent to the dressing room...while listening to the game on the radio...while someone else finishes the game...We put our hands up and volunteered for this mission....we should honor that commitment regardless if no one else is willing to take over for us...or put more troops in the line....And when this whole thing comes to an end...then we should take a look at NATO's existing membership and revamp it...

Where is NATO's committment to rotate forces in and out of the hot spots?

NATO consists right now of the US, Briton, Dutch and us when it comes down to the south and doing the lifting....even then our deployment is marginal, besides who cares what the rest of NATO is doing ,we should be worried about our commitmnet and our reputation....

[blueblood]

I saw Dion's interview on TV, and all I interpreted it as was that he figured that we can go into Pakistan chasing after insurgents that were just flushed out of Afghanistan. Dion wants to get the job done and done right, i'll give him that.

Don't worry there isn't enough tea in China to make me vote Liberal.

[jdobbin]

Name one, UN or Canadian military mission that has been resolved in less than 2 years....

Just off the top of my head:

Operation Eclipse in Eritrea lasted less than a year from 2000 to 2001. 450 Canadian soldiers.

Operation Echo in Kosovo was 1998-2000

Operation Forage was 2001-2002

A little over three years:

Operation Quadrant in Kosovo.

Operation Toucan in East Timor.

I could go on.

Those sound like bench marks to me, every 2 years forces the government to have a look at the mission from top to bottom.

You have a piont, we are not able to help anyone else....Do to our current size...a chioce made by previous governments , a choice a might add that most Canadians where fine with...so which one is it to big or to small...

Before you say Harper has done better, he is still only 1% of GDP for military in the budget. That is the same figure Martin had.

As for domestic ops, with only one battle group deployed at a time and one in training in Canada that still leaves you with 2 full brigades plus countless navy and airforce pers to deal with anything that comes our way....

The military themselves say they are stretched thin and it is hard to train as many people as they need given the non-stop deployments.

DND's response to the ICE storm was not effected by our deployment to Afgan....and Bosina at the time....

As for training new people Yes i'll agree with you we are having problems, because of commitments...but don't think for a second that Mr dion is going to solve that by pulling us out of afgan....his plans include sending us back into the fire to some shit hole like Dafur....so how is our withdrawal going to help that problem....

I have no heard of a policy of sending troops to Darfur. I believe you are referring to the NDP.

I don't believe that the military would not be prepared to deal with a problem at home so long as it wasn't a sustained disaster situation. I do believe that if we are committed to combat in Afghanistan until 2012 that we can pretty much be ruled out of any other mission around the world.

Does it really, kind of like getting pulled from the ice and sent to the dressing room...while listening to the game on the radio...while someone else finishes the game...We put our hands up and volunteered for this mission....we should honor that commitment regardless if no one else is willing to take over for us...or put more troops in the line....And when this whole thing comes to an end...then we should take a look at NATO's existing membership and revamp it...

We didn't stay in Cyprus mainly because we didn't get nearly enough support or money from the people who wanted us to stay there.

If we don't push NATO to have a better system of deployment, we will be stuck where we are because we are too meek to tell our allies to put up or shut up.

NATO consists right now of the US, Briton, Dutch and us when it comes down to the south and doing the lifting....even then our deployment is marginal, besides who cares what the rest of NATO is doing ,we should be worried about our commitmnet and our reputation....

Our reputation is not what I'm questioning. I am questioning the rest of our allies.

Edited January 18, 2008 by jdobbin

[blueblood]

Just off the top of my head:

Operation Eclipse in Eritrea lasted less than a year from 2000 to 2001. 450 Canadian soldiers.

Operation Echo in Kosovo was 1998-2000

Operation Forage was 2001-20020

A little over three years:

Operation Quadrant in Kosovo.

Operation Toucan in East Timor.

I could go on.

Before you say Harper has done better, he is still only 1% of GDP for military in the budget. That is the same figure Martin had.

The military themselves say they are stretched thin and it is hard to train as many people as they need given the non-stop deployments.

I have no heard of a policy of sending troops to Darfur. I believe you are referring to the NDP.

I don't believe that the military would not be prepared to deal with a problem at home so long as it wasn't a sustained disaster situation. I do believe that if we are committed to combat in Afghanistan until 2012 that we can pretty much be ruled out of any other mission around the world.

We didn't stay in Cyprus mainly because we didn't get nearly enough support or money from the people who wanted us to stay there.

If we don't push NATO to have a better system of deployment, we will be stuck where we are because we are too meek to tell our allies to put up or shut up.

Our reputation is not what I'm questioning. I am questioning the rest of our allies.

So I take it you are in agreement with U.S. Secretary of Defense Gates then?

[M.Dancer]

Just off the top of my head:

Operation Eclipse in Eritrea lasted less than a year from 2000 to 2001. 450 Canadian soldiers.

So everything is fine there now?

Operation Echo in Kosovo was 1998-2000

Strectching things aren't we?

Operation Forage was 2001-20020

And you complain about Afghan being too long?

And where was that again? Near Kosovo?

A little over three years:

Operation Quadrant in Kosovo.

Hey, weren't we there already? How many years in total is that, now?

Operation Toucan in East Timor.

So there are no Australians there any more?

[weaponeer]

Then I take it you must agree with Dion on what he purportedly said...... kind of.

For the record, I am no Dion fan but I have done two tours over there, and the issue of Pakistan and their "tribal areas" has to be dealt with. Afghanistan, even Pakistan itself will not be stable & normal until it is dealt with. Bhutto even knew that. There is no democracy, no stability if you allow an area, no matter how small, to be lawless and out of control.

I believe that it is time to turn up the heat of Pakistan, "they are with us or the terrorists". NATO has to let them know that they will pursure talibs into the tribal areas.... If NATO is serious about winning, it has to be done. I am a Canadian soldiers fan, I don't give a crap who says it but it has to be said.

Dions problem is he wants Canada to be there in a non combat role. He is stupid on that point. You cannot send our troops there without tanks, arty and all the war fighting equipment, you leave them at the mercy of the enemy. That is criminal. Dion wants NATO to go into Pakistan, but without Canadians in a combat role, DUMB!!!!

Edited January 18, 2008 by weaponeer

[Army Guy]

Nice list but i did say resolved in less than 2 years, handing over to someone else to finish the job is not what i called resolved....but rather handing over the problem....

Operation Eclipse in Eritrea lasted less than a year from 2000 to 2001. 450 Canadian soldiers

Handed over to the indian BN to complete.

Operation Echo in Kosovo was 1998-2000

nice try, but there are 3 missions in kosvo...the last one operation Quadrant ended in Sept 2002 So resolution took 4 years...

Operation Forage was 2001-20020

This was a 30 day commitment, to do a a small job....OK i'll give you this one....

I guess my diffinition of resolved is different than yours so i'll explain " resolution means the problem has been resolved and peace is broken out and peace keepers are not really required...., "some place you would think about bringing the family for vacation...

The piont i was trying to make is 90 % of the UN or NATO missions we take on are long term over 10 to 25 years long....making a 2 year mission a short one....

Before you say Harper has done better, he is still only 1% of GDP for military in the budget. That is the same figure Martin had

Then why is the liberals making so much fuss over the bils being spent on military contracts....

I have no heard of a policy of sending troops to Darfur. I believe you are referring to the NDP.

Actually quoting MR Dion, recently he said that Canada could take on other missions such as Dafur or haiti....

I don't believe that the military would not be prepared to deal with a problem at home so long as it wasn't a sustained disaster situation. I do believe that if we are committed to combat in Afghanistan until 2012 that we can pretty much be ruled out of any other mission around the world.

Is that what this is about, getting in as many missions as possiable....or is it getting the job right the first time...

if that was the case why not take this circus on the road....we could do dozens of nations in no time....

We didn't stay in Cyprus mainly because we didn't get nearly enough support or money from the people who wanted us to stay there

Cyprus....how many Canadians even knew we were there, or where is it on the map, or the fact we actually did carry out our last combat airbourne jump there.....

[M.Dancer]

Cyprus....how many Canadians even knew we were there, or where is it on the map, or the fact we actually did carry out our last combat airbourne jump there.....

I have an old friend who at the time had earned the distinction of being one of the few CDN soldiers to be shot at....back in the early 80s in Cyprus.

[jdobbin]

So I take it you are in agreement with U.S. Secretary of Defense Gates then?

I question the U.S. and their committment to Afghanistan as well. If they had been as committed to getting things done there before moving on to Iraq, there may have been a greater chance of capturing or killing those actually responsible for September 11.

Edited January 18, 2008 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

So everything is fine there now?

I was asked to name one mission that ended in less than two years. That mission did.

Strectching things aren't we?

That is the official start and end date to that mission. Do you dispute that?

And you complain about Afghan being too long?

And where was that again? Near Kosovo?

It was a 30 day mission in Kosovo.

Hey, weren't we there already? How many years in total is that, now?

When one mission ended, Canadians were assigned to another.

So there are no Australians there any more?

They are there under Operation Astute and have been there since 2006. The previous mission ended in 2005 and soldiers left the country.

Edited January 18, 2008 by jdobbin

[M.Dancer]

I was asked to name one mission that ended in less than two years. It did.

you weren't and you didn't. You were asked to name one that ended and was resolved within 2 years.

[M.Dancer]

They are there under Operation Astute and have been there since 2006. The previous mission ended in 2005 and soldiers left the country.

So it hadn't been resolved?

Sort of disingenuous ain't it....?

[jdobbin]

So it hadn't been resolved?

Sort of disingenuous ain't it....?

Once again I was asked about missions resolved. The previous East Timor mission was resolved in 2005. There was no Australian troops present there until the latest crisis.

[jdobbin]

you weren't and you didn't. You were asked to name one that ended and was resolved within 2 years.

Operation Forage was resolved in 30 days.