Drug Testing in Schools - Thoughts?

[BubberMiley]

Finally figured out the quote boxes.

Next lesson: the delete button. Just include the relevant quote and not the whole thing. We don't need a scrollercoaster ride.

Edited January 25, 2008 by BubberMiley

[DrGreenthumb]

Our school gives the student the option. If you're not high, suck on this swab and proove it. I you're not willing, we think you're high, so bye bye.

The student has the choice to leave, or proove his innocence.

BTW, this doesn't happen with every student on the administrator's whim. They first notice that the student is high, and see through it. They have trained addiction counsellors. So, if a student is offered to proove his sobriety with a swab, he is already suspected of being high due to his behaviours at school. Most of the time, in fact, I believe in almost all cases, they are known drug users. Same vein as the thread on drug testing employees, the kids know that drugs are not allowed at the school and students must arrive without being stoned. They agree to this in signature upon registration at the school.

Right.... so the long haired boys who like to wear Nickleback, or bob marley T-shirts get tested for not conforming to however the community advocates think they should look...think....feel. This kind of mentality is why we have way more dark skinned people in jail than white skinned folk even though both groups use drugs at an equal rate. It is just a way for racists to be racist and pretend the persecution is about something else. Conform!! don't you dare to stand out from the crowd, don't you dare to oppose us, don't you dare question us, we can collect your pee and know your sins., lol We will take your job, your home, your wife and kids, your very freedom to walk around, we have power over YOUR life. WE OWN YOU....SLAVES!

You really frustrate me. I do not believe that you have even ever smoked weed like you say or you would not be so bloody ignorant about it. The very fact that politicians, cops, and even community advocates will "admit" past pot use to appear more human in the eyes of others shows that they know that pot use is a NON-CRIME. You don't see anybody coming out during an election and saying, yeah well i killed a guy once when I was younger.....or yeah we robbed a few gas stations when we were kids but.....or I tried stealing cars when i was about 14 but i didn't like the way......none of that. But even community advocates WANT people to believe that they've tried potsmoking.

If you believe the kind of crap in you supposed pot addict's story you really have problems understanding human psychology. A person like you buying into that crap is exactly what a person like that does not need. They need a swift kick in the ass, and someone to tell them to friggin stop whining and take some personal responsibility. The worst thing for them is someone like you sucking up to them and enabling them to put the blame on anything but themselves. That's exactly the kind of asshole that steals a few dozen cars then gets caught and whines about what a tough childhood they had. I would slap the shit out of a loser like that and tell them to grow the f%ck up, and that would benefit them a hell of a lot more than feeding into their crap by mollycoddling them. People like that are looking for any excuse, any explanation as to why they are such losers, if he had never smoked a joint he'd be blaming something else for his shitty life, that is if he even exists beyond the imagination of some author who writes anti-pot propaganda.

Edited January 28, 2008 by DrGreenthumb

[Pliny]

Originally posted by community advocate: The issue of responsibility is certainly huge. How would you address that issue?

So teachers and school counsellors already know who the drug users are? It seems whenever I hear of a shooting or robbery or stolen car the perpetrator if caught or injured or killed is known to police as well. I find that odd!

So why do we need drug testing in schools? Is it to give the administration some teeth so they can do something about drugs in school?

I will tell you what will happen.

The known drug users will be tested. Their parents contacted. Their lives investigated and victimhood established.

The drug user will be a victim of society whether it is bad parenting, poverty, learning disabilities, chemical imabalances of the brain, genetics, peer pressure, television or violent video games, it will never be anything regarding a decision he made in his life. He is left both exonerated and a "VICTIM". He will know deep down that "Hey, I got away with it and all I have to do is go along with the pretense." From that point on he realizes that adults interfering with his life is all a pretense and they have no clue.

The unfortunate part is that busy bodies and do-gooders now control his life and he hasn't realized he has signed it away. He is no longer responsible, it is society or circumstance that is to blame. Losing control of your life to these "well-intentioned" do-gooders is as bad as losing control of your life to drugs or the street and often ends up that way not inspite of intervention but because of it. These interfering nannies are especially nasty today with their advocacy of damaging prescription drugs as a solution to behavioural "problems".

If someone wishes to smoke pot and can function in society to the level they wish to function, and I am not talking children under 18, then I don't really care. The one thing I ask them to do is to admit responsibility for their actions. Don't blame the pot or the alcohol. They decided to do the pot or take that drink. They thus decided to live the lifestyle they chose. The problem with drugs is that an addiction will never be admitted by the addict. "Help" with addiction when the addict wants it is also a problem because the medical establishment has more interest in managing disease and addiction than treating it effectively. It is a make work project.

...and have a glorious day!

Edited January 28, 2008 by Pliny

[DrGreenthumb]

The problem with drugs is that an addiction will never be admitted by the addict.

The only problem with this part of your post is that addicts DO admit their addictions and when they WANT to quit they take steps to help themselves. If addicts " never" admit their addictions then alcoholics anonymous wouldn't exist. I believe admitting your addiction is pre-requisite.

[Pliny]

The only problem with this part of your post is that addicts DO admit their addictions and when they WANT to quit they take steps to help themselves. If addicts " never" admit their addictions then alcoholics anonymous wouldn't exist. I believe admitting your addiction is pre-requisite.

You are right. I will qualify that by saying the addict will not admit to an addiction until he tries to stop.

[Community Advocate]

Right.... so the long haired boys who like to wear Nickleback, or bob marley T-shirts get tested for not conforming to however the community advocates think they should look...think....feel.

No, the ones who come to school stoned, or with drugs in their posession, nothing to do with what they are wearing, it's about being stoned. And it's not about what the community advocates think, it's a school administration issue.

You really frustrate me. Irritating? That's a good thing. I'm very happy to hear that. It means you're listening.

I do not believe that you have even ever smoked weed like you say or you would not be so bloody ignorant about it.

That's your perrogative. I'm not ignorant. But you see, the reason you think I'm ignorant, is because I don't agree with you. And again, this thread is addressing the issue of drug testing KIDS in school okay? It is not about ADULT DRUG USE. Why don't you start another thread on that, so we can continue the conversation intended here?

The very fact that politicians, cops, and even community advocates will "admit" past pot use to appear more human in the eyes of others shows that they know that pot use is a NON-CRIME. You don't see anybody coming out during an election and saying, yeah well i killed a guy once when I was younger.....or yeah we robbed a few gas stations when we were kids but.....or I tried stealing cars when i was about 14 but i didn't like the way......none of that. But even community advocates WANT people to believe that they've tried potsmoking.

Again, this topic is not about pot smoking, the merits of pot over alcohol, not about the drug war in the US, what government officials have smoked pot, etc etc etc ..... it's about DRUG TESTING FOR KIDS IN SCHOOL. I think you've already expressed your view on that quite clearly.

If you believe the kind of crap in you supposed pot addict's story you really have problems understanding human psychology. A person like you buying into that crap is exactly what a person like that does not need. They need a swift kick in the ass, and someone to tell them to friggin stop whining and take some personal responsibility. The worst thing for them is someone like you sucking up to them and enabling them to put the blame on anything but themselves. That's exactly the kind of asshole that steals a few dozen cars then gets caught and whines about what a tough childhood they had. I would slap the shit out of a loser like that and tell them to grow the f%ck up, and that would benefit them a hell of a lot more than feeding into their crap by mollycoddling them. People like that are looking for any excuse, any explanation as to why they are such losers, if he had never smoked a joint he'd be blaming something else for his shitty life, that is if he even exists beyond the imagination of some author who writes anti-pot propaganda.

Why would you not just kill them all to be rid of them? That would save you the trouble of working so hard to make them realize what a waste of human life they are. Would you treat your own this way as well, or just those whom you know nothing about? Would you be interested in anything about their background to gain insight and understanding, or would you just want to ignore all that, smack them around a little, yell at them, call them losers and what would you expect to be the result of that? (besides your own satisfaction)

PS Re" Post above - WHAT DO YOU DO NOW, DAD?

[Community Advocate]

Not on your life.

The double standard that will be set by the admins will be ridiculous.

the admin are adults - the students are not

[DrGreenthumb]

Why would you not just kill them all to be rid of them? That would save you the trouble of working so hard to make them realize what a waste of human life they are. Would you treat your own this way as well, or just those whom you know nothing about? Would you be interested in anything about their background to gain insight and understanding, or would you just want to ignore all that, smack them around a little, yell at them, call them losers and what would you expect to be the result of that? (besides your own satisfaction)

PS Re" Post above - WHAT DO YOU DO NOW, DAD?

Yes I advocate killing people for drug use, how did you ever figure me out? You should try and check out reality once in a while.

If somebody told me that they were hopelessly addicted to pot? I would laugh in their face. I would tell them that when they were ready to take responsibility for their own actions then talk to me. I would tell them that nobody with more than two brain cells to rub together is going to believe that crap so please forget that excuse and tell me what their REAL problems are that they are trying to use pot as a scapegoat for. Blaming pot is just living in denial, and no progress will be made in solving the actual problem the person is having. Pot people can function just fine on pot no matter how much or how often they smoke it. So "treating" someone for a pot "addiction" is about as laughable as a 12 step program (government funded) to help coffee "addicts" get off the bean.

"No, the ones who come to school stoned, or with drugs in their posession, nothing to do with what they are wearing, it's about being stoned. And it's not about what the community advocates think, it's a school administration issue."--CA

And who decides who is "stoned" and how do they "know" that without the test? And if they already "know" then why do we need the test? Unless the results are to be used as leverage to blackmail these kids into "treatment"?

Maybe these "troubled" long haired boys are to be singled out for the application of pharma approved mind altering drugs like paxil, zoloft or adderal(the pharma version of meth often prescribed to kids with ADD)

I think kids should be afforded the same basic human rights that we as adults expect. That also means the school should not be able to drug test them. Also refusal of drug testing should never be legal grounds to expell a kid. If that happened to one of my kids I would sue the school admin and the school division. There are no tests that will show wether the student is high during school hours anyway. THC will turn up in their blood for a couple of months since last exposure. People have to accept that other people are free to make their own decisions, even ones that you don't personally like. If my son or daughter wants to smoke pot in their free time, that is ultimately their own decision and you don't have the right to deny them an education because of it.

"Irritating? That's a good thing. I'm very happy to hear that. It means you're listening."--I'm listening, but I've heard it all before, and having to repeatly debunk the same old lies over and over again is really becoming tiresome.

Kids are going to try smoking pot, no laws or drug tests will deter them from that. The only thing the criminalizing drugs and testing kids does is create harm that was never there before. You are harming our kids by promoting this model. Just think about it, the harm from drug use are there wether it is legal or not, prohibition just adds an extra layer of harm to the individual that was never there before. The supply of drugs has been unaffected by 80 years of prohibition

[guyser]

the admin are adults - the students are not

Which means nothing when the admins want to let one slide but nail another. I have held that position since the beginning.

This testing will be used by the admins in an unfair way.

[Community Advocate]

Yes I advocate killing people for drug use, how did you ever figure me out? You should try and check out reality once in a while.

You missed the point. In reality, this is NOT what "these people' need. But that's why you're not in that 'business' of helping 'these people'.

And drop the whole "anti-pot propaganda" here and continue that debate somewhere else, k?

They need a swift kick in the ass, and someone to tell them to friggin stop whining and take some personal responsibility. The worst thing for them is someone like you sucking up to them and enabling them to put the blame on anything but themselves. That's exactly the kind of asshole that steals a few dozen cars then gets caught and whines about what a tough childhood they had. I would slap the shit out of a loser like that and tell them to grow the f%ck up, and that would benefit them a hell of a lot more than feeding into their crap by mollycoddling them. People like that are looking for any excuse, any explanation as to why they are such losers, if he had never smoked a joint he'd be blaming something else for his shitty life, that is if he even exists beyond the imagination of some author who writes anti-pot propaganda.

If somebody told me that they were hopelessly addicted to pot? I would laugh in their face. I would tell them that when they were ready to take responsibility for their own actions then talk to me. I would tell them that nobody with more than two brain cells to rub together is going to believe that crap so please forget that excuse and tell me what their REAL problems are that they are trying to use pot as a scapegoat for. Blaming pot is just living in denial, and no progress will be made in solving the actual problem the person is having. Pot people can function just fine on pot no matter how much or how often they smoke it. So "treating" someone for a pot "addiction" is about as laughable as a 12 step program (government funded) to help coffee "addicts" get off the bean.

"Pot people"? lol lol lol That's a real good one! Can I use that one? I'll quote you, I promise. I love it! "The Pot People" can function just fine on pot, no matter how much, or how often they smoke it." As if, "Pot People" are some kind of certain breed, culture, whatever. Lots of people smoke pot for a variety of reasons, but I'm not going to debate this in a forum created to discuss drug tesing in schools. That's another discussion altogether.........

But I'll address some of the problems that the student 'pot people' experience in our high schools:

lack of motivation; absenteeism, tardiness, can't get up for school cuz they smoked too much last night, difficulty paying attention (related to lack of sleep related to smoking pot) just to name a few. There's more here if you want to look:

Effects of Heavy Marijuana Use on Learning and Social Behavior

Effects of Heavy Marijuana Use on Learning and Social Behavior

Research clearly demonstrates that marijuana has the potential to cause problems in daily life or make a person's existing problems worse. Depression17, anxiety17, and personality disturbances18 have been associated with chronic marijuana use. Because marijuana compromises the ability to learn and remember information, the more a person uses marijuana the more he or she is likely to fall behind in accumulating intellectual, job, or social skills. Moreover, research has shown that marijuana’s adverse impact on memory and learning can last for days or weeks after the acute effects of the drug wear off19,20,25.

Students who smoke marijuana get lower grades and are less likely to graduate from high school, compared with their nonsmoking peers21,22,23,24. A study of 129 college students found that, among those who smoked the drug at least 27 of the 30 days prior to being surveyed, critical skills related to attention, memory, and learning were significantly impaired, even after the students had not taken the drug for at least 24 hours20. These "heavy" marijuana abusers had more trouble sustaining and shifting their attention and in registering, organizing, and using information than did the study participants who had abused marijuana no more than 3 of the previous 30 days. As a result, someone who smokes marijuana every day may be functioning at a reduced intellectual level all of the time.

More recently, the same researchers showed that the ability of a group of long-term heavy marijuana abusers to recall words from a list remained impaired for a week after quitting, but returned to normal within 4 weeks25. Thus, some cognitive abilities may be restored in individuals who quit smoking marijuana, even after long-term heavy use.

Workers who smoke marijuana are more likely than their coworkers to have problems on the job. Several studies associate workers' marijuana smoking with increased absences, tardiness, accidents, workers' compensation claims, and job turnover. A study among postal workers found that employees who tested positive for marijuana on a pre-employment urine drug test had 55 percent more industrial accidents, 85 percent more injuries, and a 75-percent increase in absenteeism compared with those who tested negative for marijuana use26. In another study, heavy marijuana abusers reported that the drug impaired several important measures of life achievement including cognitive abilities, career status, social life, and physical and mental health27.

Read "Studies and Research", but then again: we have the government ("No Pot People?") lying to us and trying to scare us.....

how 'bout a medical perspective then?

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=5175

Marijuana use has long been known to cause problems with learning and memory. Now, researchers at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University have identified the mechanism by which marijuana may affect activity in the hippocampus, the portion of the brain responsible for learning and memory. They reported their findings in the September 16 issue of the journal Neuron.

(Medical Research News - Sept/04)

So, that's in respect to drug testing in schools, rather than debating the merits of pot, legalization, drug wars.

http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/marijuana.html

And who decides who is "stoned" and how do they "know" that without the test?

Well, I suppose most of your experience is with pot, so you would know about that, the physical signs and smells, but it is usually their behaviour that is cause for questioning more than physical appearance. l you have to do is talk to them to confirm there's something amiss. If there are policies in place, then there must be a way to enforce the policies.

And if they already "know" then why do we need the test?

Confirmation. Kinda like telling the cops or the judge that you haven't been drinking before you got in the car, while you're slurring your words and smell like booze I guess- they need a breathalizer to confirm, correct?

Unless the results are to be used as leverage to blackmail these kids into "treatment"?

I dunno. Maybe it's just to ensure that their policies are adhered to. I don't even see anything wrong with that. But if they wanted to persue offering assistance on a personal matter, I wouldn't have a problem with that either. They would have the choice to leave the school if they wanted to continue their drug use and or abuse.

Maybe these "troubled" long haired boys are to be singled out for the application of pharma approved mind altering drugs like paxil, zoloft or adderal(the pharma version of meth often prescribed to kids with ADD)

Nope, it's too late for that now, the're already self-medicating then. They've already made that choice.

btw "The pharma version of meth?" is showing your ignorance about the 'hard stuff' again. You might want to go do some research on that one.

ADHD meds (not prescribed for ADD) are a far cry from the street version of 'speed', and work differently on the brain.

I think kids should be afforded the same basic human rights that we as adults expect. That also means the school should not be able to drug test them.

So, you think that kids should have the right to come to school stoned, against policy, and not be held accountable by the administrators?

Also refusal of drug testing should never be legal grounds to expell a kid. If that happened to one of my kids I would sue the school admin and the school division.

They are not expelled at our school, they are sent to a three day 'treatment/education' program. I have to go back to the original article again to refresh on the issue with the testing. We got a little off-track there for a while.

There are no tests that will show wether the student is high during school hours anyway. THC will turn up in their blood for a couple of months since last exposure. People have to accept that other people are free to make their own decisions, even ones that you don't personally like. If my son or daughter wants to smoke pot in their free time, that is ultimately their own decision and you don't have the right to deny them an education because of it.

Me? I wouldn't deny anyone an education, but they may be denying themselves an education if they are unable to follow the school policy and rules. And, it's not all about THC, so get off the pot and expand your mind. Your own kids, smoking in their free time, it not what is up for discussion here. That's your personal paradigm that it's ok for your kids to smoke pot, and you would defend their right to do that and their right to keep that private. That's fine and dandy. However, if they register at a school that has a zero-tolerance policy on the use of street drugs, then they would be bound to that contract and required to be drug free. But your kids wouldn't be there, because they have the right to smoke pot, and that right is much more important than having to submit to drug tests in order to attend an educational institution that has such a stupid policy in the first place.

"Irritating? That's a good thing. I'm very happy to hear that. It means you're listening."--I'm listening, but I've heard it all before, and having to repeatly debunk the same old lies over and over again is really becoming tiresome.

DITTO!

Kids are going to try smoking pot, no laws or drug tests will deter them from that. The only thing the criminalizing drugs and testing kids does is create harm that was never there before. You are harming our kids by promoting this model. Just think about it, the harm from drug use are there wether it is legal or not, prohibition just adds an extra layer of harm to the individual that was never there before. The supply of drugs has been unaffected by 80 years of prohibition

Like you say, I've heard it all before. You're stuck in your 'pot people' theory, and talking about criminalization again. If you are stuck thinking that promoting this model is harming kids, you are completely oblivious to the serious harm that some of our kids are in. But you can't seem to get past the "pot debate'.

You might have to go back to that very hard question.....what do you do now, Dad? If your mind is open, you might gain some insight there.

Edited January 30, 2008 by Community Advocate

[DrGreenthumb]

You might have to go back to that very hard question.....what do you do now, Dad? If your mind is open, you might gain some insight there.

After the first few lines it just turns into more blah blah blah from some fanatic who proves to me more with each post that her living is made in the addictions and treatment industry. With all your links to government and police agency websites it is quite obvious to me and to pretty much anyone else that you make your living meddling in the lives of others.

Pot people canna-people, people who choose to include cannabis in their lives. I'm talking about anybody who uses cannabis on a semi-regular basis, certainly anyone who has used it enough to claim they are "addicted" to it. Anybody who uses pot regularly can carry out any of their normal daily activities without any problems whatsoever. It is almost impossible for anyone else to know if someone is high. So someone claiming that pot is destroying their life is full of shit, that's like trying to blame your problems on a coffee addiction.

Its actually funny that you would link to alberta einstein college of medicine when Einstein was a known pot smoker.

maybe if einstein would have been drug tested in his youth he would have been expelled from school and his life would have taken a different path.

Again all the studies you bring are just plain crap. propaganda. nothing that shows any causation , only correlation. You say kids who smoke pot get lower marks, I say that the type of kids who decide to get into drugs at a younger age are the kids who are not as interested in scholastic pursuits and would get the same marks with or without the pot use.

The kinds of solutions you offer do nothing to help but do a lot of long term damage to people's reputations and futures.

you are really too much of a crackpot for me to even bother with anymore anyway. A true believer, you would fit right in with the Randy White group of meddlers. Clueless and damned happy about it. We should set a better example for our kids, by not allowing fascism to fester in our public schools. If we do not think its acceptable for the government to force random drug testing on us then we should not be doing it to our children. If this treatment violates our rights it violates theirs just as much.

What would I do if my kid was a pot addict? That question is stupid because there is NO SUCH THING. If my kid told me they were addicted to pot and that it was screwing up their life I'd laugh at them and tell them to get real. I 'd ask them what trouble they were in and then try to help them solve whatever their REAL problem is.

If they were addicted to something else and were acting like an asshole because they were high on something all the time, I'd know about it without the need for anyone to drug test them. I would do my best to help them but would certainly never turn them over to law enforcement of some biblethumper who wants to indoctrinate them with the crap that you spew.

You need to realize that for some people Cannabis is helpful and if they feel it improves their life then it is none of your friggin business. Its not as if these kids that come to school high on pot are a threat to anyone because they are high. There is no safety sensitivity issue here at all so you can't compare this to breathylysing someone who is driving a car that could go off track and kill other people. In the drunk driving issue you have the safety of other drivers that overrides someone's right not to be tested. Alcohol is proven to impair driving and you can tell easily if someone has been drinking. Someone being high does not present the same kind of danger to public safety so there is no valid reason to violate the student's right to privacy.

[GostHacked]

Maybe if we prescribe pot to the schoolkids instead of Ritalin .......................

[Community Advocate]

With all your links to government and police agency websites it is quite obvious to me and to pretty much anyone else that you make your living meddling in the lives of others.

You can keep saying this, and I will keep telling you you are wrong. I will do this, because I know what I'm doing, and you do not. So, you can't really speak to what I'm doing, especially since I've explained it numerous times already. But, perhaps you're short-term memory isn't so swift right now.

Anybody who uses pot regularly can carry out any of their normal daily activities without any problems whatsoever.

More assumptions, as much as you think you can, you simply cannot speak for all pot users, potheads, pot people, whatever. You don't know how it affects people you don't know, and you also don't know what you don't know yet. You can find out for yourself on any 'propaganda' site that deals with mj in the workplace to learn this isn't true. Perhaps for you, whatever job you do, you can carry out your daily activities with no problem. Others can not, depending on how they feel when hi, and what job they are doing, and what papers they've signed upon their acceptance for hire. So, again your statement shows quite a level of ignorance about the effects of pot. Want to start a new thread to discuss all this? Or is this somehow related to the fact that kids who go to school stoned and high on drugs can carry out any of their normal daily activities without any problems whatsoever?

Its actually funny that you would link to alberta einstein college of medicine when Einstein was a known pot smoker.

I think it's quite funny that you think that's funny! What's the point?

It is almost impossible for anyone else to know if someone is high.

Ok, when you've just smoked a doob, I'd agree that you would find it almost impossible for you to know if someone else was.

I'll tell you, with people I know, I know when they're high, by looking at them, and usually the smell gives it away beforehand, so no guessing is required. However, if I were to smoke some pot first, your darn right I'd have trouble knowing if someone else was high. But I can still tell with people I know well. In a smaller school, the administration gets to know the students well.

You say kids who smoke pot get lower marks, I say that the type of kids who decide to get into drugs at a younger age are the kids who are not as interested in scholastic pursuits and would get the same marks with or without the pot use.

You say what you want to say, and I will say what I want to say, and then, we'll be done. Are we done yet?

The kinds of solutions you offer do nothing to help but do a lot of long term damage to people's reputations and futures.

Right out in left field. You are so bent on using pot and making it legal that you still can't see past it to the dangerous drugs kids are on today. Go smoke another fatty and revel in your future reputation without damage. You're quite safe from me and my solutions, and so are your children. And, for you and your children, with regards to me damaging anyone's reputations and futures, I'll tell you that

"IF YOU TAKE CARE OF YOUR CHARACTER, YOUR REPUTATION WILL TAKE CARE OF ITSELF".

you are really too much of a crackpot for me to even bother with anymore anyway.

Hey, c'mon now, I said I'd smoked pot, I never said I did crack! I know, I irritate you, don't I? I hope this is true, cuz I'm as tired as you are, and we're getting nowhere.

If we do not think its acceptable for the government to force random drug testing on us then we should not be doing it to our children. If this treatment violates our rights it violates theirs just as much.

VIOLATION OF RIGHTS!!!!! Again, all of these rights come with responsibilities. This is what I've taught my kids, but many kids miss the latter part of that because they get so focussed on their rights, they forget about their corresponding responsibilities. The apples don't fall far from the tree.

What would I do if my kid was a pot addict? That question is stupid because there is NO SUCH THING.

Well, as I've said before, there is such a thing. Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it untrue, y'know?

And, it's not the government - get off that soapbox - its school administrators and employers holding their students and employees accountable.

What would I do if my kid was a pot addict? That question is stupid because there is NO SUCH THING. If my kid told me they were addicted to pot and that it was screwing up their life I'd laugh at them and tell them to get real. I 'd ask them what trouble they were in and then try to help them solve whatever their REAL problem is.

You're such a 'cool' dad!

But, that is NOT the question I asked

If they were addicted to something else and were acting like an asshole because they were high on something all the time, I'd know about it without the need for anyone to drug test them. I would do my best to help them but would certainly never turn them over to law enforcement of some biblethumper who wants to indoctrinate them with the crap that you spew

.

And just what would your 'best' involve? You're gonna fix it all on your own, or you're gonna let it be?

Most parents have no idea until they are in the thick of this crisis how helpless they are.

You need to realize that for some people Cannabis is helpful and if they feel it improves their life then it is none of your friggin business.

I do realize that, and also agree with it. And I don't make it my friggin business. So you can stop arguing that now, I've said it many times. This is not about you and your pot smoking, it's about drug testing in schools, and again, you've made your views clear on that a few times, but keep sidetracking the thread.

And you need to realize that it's not all about Cannabis, that is YOUR agenda. There are other drugs out there much more dangerous than pot.

There is no safety sensitivity issue here at all so you can't compare this to breathylysing someone who is driving a car that could go off track and kill other people. In the drunk driving issue you have the safety of other drivers that overrides someone's right not to be tested. Alcohol is proven to impair driving and you can tell easily if someone has been drinking.

Again, I haven't compared anything, but since you mention it, depending on the person, and the situation, I certainly can compare the two. Annd yes, there is a safety sensitivity issue here, so I can compare. But I'm not going to do that here.

Someone being high does not present the same kind of danger to public safety so there is no valid reason to violate the student's right to privacy.

Once you break the law, your privacy rights are somewhat forefeited through your own actions. That's why we need extra measures to protect the identity of the youth criminals. Again, rights come with responsibilities.

Not the same danger, different danger. But of course, that's all just propaganda, and only what you say is true.

Are ya done yet? I'm so done I'm crispy!

[guyser]

CA, let me ask you some questions.

1) say a kid looks , or acts suspicious . and you or the admins sense he is on something. What is the first step taken by you or the admins?

2) Are the parents notified before any testing is done with respect to garnering approval?

3) Should the kid allow testing to be done, who does it and who pays for it?

4) Tests results come back positive , who sees the report and who is it discussed with?

5) Assuming a positive, are the parents informed before the child is?

6) Are the police ever notified ?

7) What social agencies, drug treatment centres are involved and how are the files transferred?

8) Are all kids treated exactly the same?

Thanks in advance , should you comply that is.

[Community Advocate]

CA, let me ask you some questions.

1) say a kid looks , or acts suspicious . and you or the admins sense he is on something. What is the first step taken by you or the admins?

2) Are the parents notified before any testing is done with respect to garnering approval?

3) Should the kid allow testing to be done, who does it and who pays for it?

4) Tests results come back positive , who sees the report and who is it discussed with?

5) Assuming a positive, are the parents informed before the child is?

6) Are the police ever notified ?

7) What social agencies, drug treatment centres are involved and how are the files transferred?

8) Are all kids treated exactly the same?

Thanks in advance , should you comply that is.

I'm sorry, since I do not work in the schools I can not answer these questions accurately. You would have to find a school that does drug testing to find out accurate answers to those questions. They are good questions.

Our schools do not do drug testing. The school I will refer to has mouth swab tests available if a student is suspected (pretty much known) to be stoned, so that they can prove the admin wrong and stay at school. The ones who are stoned usually just leave. They know the admin has noticed - they're not stupid, they're just impaired. If they are not high on drugs, they might choose the swab, the test is negative, and they go to class. You see, the rule is no drugs at school, and don't come to school stoned. So, the students are fully aware that they are not to come to school stoned,. and have agreed to this ahead of time. It may help you to know that this particular school is an 'alternate' school which is a place for students who have not been successful in their community school, and for some, it's a last ditch effort to get an education. The staff are specially trained to work with at-risk youth, and each youth is assigned a youth worker. There is an on-site addictions counsellor as well. The administrator has education up the wazoo, and is quite well trained in working with at-risk youth.

to answer your questions anecdotally, from what I understand at one particular school, and from my experience in that school I would say the following:

1) I wouldn't personally be present. I am not a school employee. If the admin suspects a student to be high, (and yes, they can tell quite easily, they know the kids very well) he would talk to the student, and ask them if they're high on drugs. If the student says no, and the admin knows they are stoned, they will offer the swab for the student, telling them that they are free to proove the admin wrong by swabbing. If they swab, and it's positive, the student would leave, and come back when he's not high and ready to swab again for proof (if the admin still has doubt). They know they are not to come to school stoned, and they know that they will be called on it if they do. It's an agreement they've already made in order to attend.

2)No, the students are of legal age of consent (12), therefore parental approval is not necessary. The students in effect, give their consent when they suck on the swab. Parental consent is unnecessary. (aside, do you realize that you, as the parent and caregiver of your minor children can not obtain any legal or medical information about your own child, even while being held accountable to pay the costs of medical and legal services? The Federal Privacy Act section 8 (2).) (Oh, did you also know that your 12/13,14, 15, 16, 17 yr olds can consent to medical operations and treatments without your knowledge and consent as well?)

3) The school pays for the kits, provide them to the student, and the student tests himself.

4) Well, there's no going out nor coming back, the swab comes out and results are available in moments. Both the admin and the student see the results almost immediately.

5) No, as I said, the student is aware right away. (It rarely happens that a stoned student will suck the swab, they usually leave.) I'm not sure if parents would be notified if the kid tested positive, some of these kids live on their own, some live with foster parents, some live with guardians, it depends on the individual case. But in a case where parents are in close contact with the school, the parent would likely be notified that the kid is not at school today, and why they were sent away.

But I do know this: A students' privacy on issues of disclosure with the school counsellor take precendence over the parents right to know. That is, if your child discloses a drug addiction and/or pregnancy and/or s.t.d. or even suicide to the school counsellor, the school counsellor will not talk to the parents without the student's consent. Confidentiality is assured for the student.

6) There is a school liaison officer available to all the schools. They are rarely called in for serious issues and events, so they would not be called in for one stoned student, never. If they were called, they wouldn't come out. They wouldn't be notified either. They are'nt the 'bad cops', they're the 'good cops', just there to be available to the kids, to talk to them, etc. Police aren't even notified of drug possession, unless it's a serious amount, which never happens, cuz the kids are not that stupid. Usually when they do bring 'it' to school, they hide it outside the building. So, from what I've seen, no the police are never notified. Administrators aren't that stupid either - In a regular school, it is more important to keep this information inside the school walls, so as the community doesn't see the school as having a drug problem, so student population stays high as does the per/pupil budget received.

7) None involved, no file transfers.

8) All kids are treated fairly. That does not mean they are treated the same, That means that they are treated according to their needs. Whatever their needs are, and whatever meets those needs for that student, that is how the student is treated. The educators are there to try to keep these kids in school so they get some level of high school education. Many have already quit, been suspended, or can not function in a normal school setting.

Again, I've answered your questions to the best of my ability, from informaton I've obtained from the administrators, counsellors, and youth workers in the school/

[Pliny]

No, the students are of legal age of consent (12), therefore parental approval is not necessary. The students in effect, give their consent when they suck on the swab. Parental consent is unnecessary. (aside, do you realize that you, as the parent and caregiver of your minor children can not obtain any legal or medical information about your own child, even while being held accountable to pay the costs of medical and legal services? The Federal Privacy Act section 8 (2).) (Oh, did you also know that your 12/13,14, 15, 16, 17 yr olds can consent to medical operations and treatments without your knowledge and consent as well?)

And you have to ask why some kids are on drugs and parents can't control them? It really irks me when kids can do whatever they want, so they get into trouble and some idiot says, "I wonder where the parents were when their kids were getting into trouble."

Parents don't bring up their kids anymore. You may present your kids as perfect little specimans, and I am not calling that into question, but some kids need a little more discipline than others. And when some do-gooder calls giving a kid a swat on the rear for running out in traffic abuse, then they have no concept of what abuse is.

It would be abuse to not discipline the child and corporal punishment may be necessary. The bleeding hearts will be after me now but when you helplessly watch your teenager sneak out of the house at night to be with his friends and do some drugs and THERE IS NOTHING A PARENT CAN DO ABOUT IT. It is a sad situation. But I blame those bleeding hearts.

I hope you learn something here Comm Ad. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

You are here, on this thread, arguing with an adult and you can't convince him with your professional communicative skills that smoking pot is bad. How in the world do you expect a parent to be successful with his children when his hands are tied behind his back by legislation, and it is schools who wish to, and do, "teach" what they have been taught to believe is proper social behavior? You know, caring and sharing, and being a productive contributor to society.

Don't you see that as being manipulative and interfering in the decisions the child should make in his life. He should know "when" to be caring and sharing, he should learn and decide how and what society he is going to contribute to, not that society is worthy of being contributed to just because it exists. The government gladly teaches that society needs to be contributed to and then decides it should instruct its citizens how that should all be done, and without question. As if people are not taught any of the social graces expected in their community or culture.

Well, that's enough of a rant for tonight!

Tomorrow is another glorious day!

PS: I was a bit put out that the only comment about my last post was I made a mistake saying an addict won't admit to being an addict!

[Community Advocate]

And you have to ask why some kids are on drugs and parents can't control them? It really irks me when kids can do whatever they want, so they get into trouble and some idiot says, "I wonder where the parents were when their kids were getting into trouble."

Now, you are understanding the problem more clearly.

Parents don't bring up their kids anymore. You may present your kids as perfect little specimans, and I am not calling that into question, but some kids need a little more discipline than others. And when some do-gooder calls giving a kid a swat on the rear for running out in traffic abuse, then they have no concept of what abuse is.

Okay, we could carry on this forty year long arguement about spanking, but spanking is punishemnt - not discipline. This is where thoughts differ. Punishment can get quite abusive, depending on how angry the parent is who is dishing it out. But discipline is meant to teach. I'll stop there.

It would be abuse to not discipline the child and corporal punishment may be necessary. The bleeding hearts will be after me now but when you helplessly watch your teenager sneak out of the house at night to be with his friends and do some drugs and THERE IS NOTHING A PARENT CAN DO ABOUT IT. It is a sad situation. But I blame those bleeding hearts.

Well, if you think corporal punishment is necessary, you may not be using effective measures of discipline. But again, to each his own.

That is a sad situation about the teens sneaking out, but it's always been that way, and probably always will. Putting the blame on the bleeding hearts does nothing towards a soloution though, it will take much more than blame, it would take a huge involvement on the part of the apathetic. That won't happen any time soon.

I hope you learn something here Comm Ad. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Im not learning much from that statement, unless you care to expand alittle? But yes, I am learning a lot here, mostly about people. People are my passion.

PS: I was a bit put out that the only comment about my last post was I made a mistake saying an addict won't admit to being an addict!

Eta: I now see you are referring to Dr. Greenthumb? i'll read your post again.....

Edited February 1, 2008 by Community Advocate

[Community Advocate]

So teachers and school counsellors already know who the drug users are? It seems whenever I hear of a shooting or robbery or stolen car the perpetrator if caught or injured or killed is known to police as well. I find that odd!

Why do you find this odd? It's quite true, and most common.

So why do we need drug testing in schools? Is it to give the administration some teeth so they can do something about drugs in school?

Hmmm, hadn't thought of it this way, as my thoughts are about health, safety and well-being. I can talk to you about this, because you are not stuck in the 'pot-people' paradigm, and you understand what kind of drugs are out there besides mj. I suppose your idea is a part of the purpose, but they don't bite with those teeth, they gently pick up by the scruff of the neck, and help them into a safe place. If a student agrees to come to school drug free, and breaks that agreement, then we're back to the discipline thing again, right? No spanking teens though, that isn't allowed! But school principals have autonomy much greater than most parents realize. He can search and seize easier than police can.

I will tell you what will happen.

The known drug users will be tested. Their parents contacted. Their lives investigated and victimhood established.

The drug user will be a victim of society whether it is bad parenting, poverty, learning disabilities, chemical imabalances of the brain, genetics, peer pressure, television or violent video games, it will never be anything regarding a decision he made in his life. He is left both exonerated and a "VICTIM". He will know deep down that "Hey, I got away with it and all I have to do is go along with the pretense." From that point on he realizes that adults interfering with his life is all a pretense and they have no clue.

I think I understand what you're saying. Blame others for our own situation, caused by our own choices. This is what will happen if half the job is done, not if the job is done well.

The unfortunate part is that busy bodies and do-gooders now control his life and he hasn't realized he has signed it away. He is no longer responsible, it is society or circumstance that is to blame. Losing control of your life to these "well-intentioned" do-gooders is as bad as losing control of your life to drugs or the street and often ends up that way not inspite of intervention but because of it. These interfering nannies are especially nasty today with their advocacy of damaging prescription drugs as a solution to behavioural "problems".

Well, the fortunate part is that he is now clear-headed having gone through detox and rehab, he is away from those who influence him negatively, and he is in the care of professionals, support systems, and people who genuinely care about him and have the capacity to help him and support him towards a healthier lifestyle. These professionals, btw, are not nannies prescribing pharmeceuticals to replace the drugs. I think this is another paradigm that gets in your way of understanding this. But I understand how you're thinking there.

If someone wishes to smoke pot and can function in society to the level they wish to function, and I am not talking children under 18, then I don't really care. The one thing I ask them to do is to admit responsibility for their actions. Don't blame the pot or the alcohol. They decided to do the pot or take that drink. They thus decided to live the lifestyle they chose. The problem with drugs is that an addiction will never be admitted by the addict. "Help" with addiction when the addict wants it is also a problem because the medical establishment has more interest in managing disease and addiction than treating it effectively. It is a make work project.

I agree with you on all that. But I AM talking about children under 18. It's not often we find a 45 year old in schools with teens. The issue of drug testing in schools is about youth, and contractual obligations, and the health and safety of all students.

[DrGreenthumb]

. The issue of drug testing in schools is about youth, and contractual obligations, and the health and safety of all students.

No it isn't about health and safety at all it is about CONTROL. We have a lot of CONTROL freaks in our society and it would appear that you fall into this category. Some kid being high is not a safety risk at all, and if it were the kid's health you were concerned with you would be testing them for cheeseburgers, because obesity is a FAR HIGHER health risk for teens than is "illegal" drug use.

I will keep bringing this back to pot, because any pogram of drug testing will mostly affect pot users since THC remains in your system far longer than drugs do. At least 95% of the positive tests will be for pot, not for any of the "scary" drugs that you WANT to make this about. The kids the school admin doesn't like, or the kids who are not the bookworm type, perhaps the ones that have an after school band, will get tested and stigmatized while the cleancut kids whose parents know the admin or teachers will escape testing. The more widespread and "normal" drug testing becomes the more likely that it will be abused by admin and teachers to punish kids who don't conform to look and act exactly how the admin thinks is appropriate. We should never teach our kids to accept whatever authority wants them to accept. We must always question authority and keep checks and balances in place to prevent fascim and the police state that you are advocating.

The authorities have no right to drug test our kids. They will abuse it, and test the kids who question their authority. If the kids can't pass their classes because they are on drugs then I guess they fail and will have to repeat them when they CHOOSE to staighten out. I don't believe that being high will necessarily make them flunk out anyways, I was high every day during college and had the second highest marks in my class. It has more to do with a person's attitude and willingness to listen/learn than what substance they are using. If we didn't want people to alter their minds with drugs we would have to pull about a thousand pharma mind-benders off the market.

All school drug testing pograms will do is condition the kids into thinking that it is"ok" or "normal" to let authority figures have that kind of CONTROL over their lives when they are adults. This is the top of a very slippery slope, and I will oppose it with my last breath.

[Community Advocate]

No it isn't about health and safety at all it is about CONTROL. We have a lot of CONTROL freaks in our society and it would appear that you fall into this category. Some kid being high is not a safety risk at all, and if it were the kid's health you were concerned with you would be testing them for cheeseburgers, because obesity is a FAR HIGHER health risk for teens than is "illegal" drug use.

Yes, it is about the health, safety and education of youth, as well as contractual obligations. It is not about CONTROL, but it is about responsibility, integrity, accountability....

I'm far from a 'control freak'. And teens are not dying from eating cheeseburgers. Cheeseburgers are legal. Drugs are illegal.

Some kid being high is not a safety risk at all? Cheesburgers are just as concerning as crystal meth and crack cocaine? I think you'd have a rough time finding anyone toa gree with you there. Cheeseburgers are not my issue. Youth on dangerous drugs are my issue. The comparison is ridiculous.

I will keep bringing this back to pot, because any pogram of drug testing will mostly affect pot users since THC remains in your system far longer than drugs do.

This isn't about using pot, this is about coming to school high, or with drugs in your posession as a youth.

At least 95% of the positive tests will be for pot, not for any of the "scary" drugs that you WANT to make this about.

I'm always amazed at how you pull these statistics out of thin air. You do realize that 85% of statistics are made up?

We must always question authority and keep checks and balances in place to prevent fascim and the police state that you are advocating.

FINALLY for once, we agree! (in part , as I am not adovocating fascism nor a police state.

If we didn't want people to alter their minds with drugs we would have to pull about a thousand pharma mind-benders off the market.

People rarely take pharma mind-benders for fun, recreation, or to 'relax'. They are legal, they are prescribed by physicians, and the patient is monitored.

Apples and oranges so to speak.

All school drug testing pograms will do is condition the kids into thinking that it is"ok" or "normal" to let authority figures have that kind of CONTROL over their lives when they are adults.

Authority figures will have no control on their lives whatsoever, especially when they are adults. You can't seem to understand this is not about adult use of pot. For goodness sakes, please start another thread on that issue! This is about youth and dangerous drugs. What drug testing programs will do is promote the safety of all students holding them accountable to the law, and their agreements and contractual obligations.

This is the top of a very slippery slope, and I will oppose it with my last breath.

I have absolutely no doubt about that.

Double crispy! Done.

[Pliny]

Originally posted by community advocate:

Well, the fortunate part is that he is now clear-headed having gone through detox and rehab, he is away from those who influence him negatively, and he is in the care of professionals, support systems, and people who genuinely care about him and have the capacity to help him and support him towards a healthier lifestyle. These professionals, btw, are not nannies prescribing pharmeceuticals to replace the drugs. I think this is another paradigm that gets in your way of understanding this. But I understand how you're thinking there.

I have been busy on other threads and I don't know if anyone is still around on this one but as regards the above:

I don't know who you are talking about when you are talking about professionals?

How I feel about the "professionals" I hear about is that their methods are ineffective and they need to try something else, and those that realize those methods are ineffective and leave their "professional" training are probably more deserved of the title "professional".

I need only look at their current strategies in detox and rehab to realize there are no experts among the "professionals".

Most of the "treatments" are considered "new" or experimental which tells me right there that there are no "professionals". They are experimenting and trying different approaches. But what escapes them, and escapes my understanding, is anything that may seem to be effective.

I would say anyone with a 70 - 80% success rate in restoring an individual to a life without drugs would be an expert on addiction. 30% is not even close to being an expert on addiction, it is random chance. I believe 70 -80% is the success rate of Allan Carr in his quit smoking program.

I smoked for thirty years and knew I didn't have the fortitude to quit because I had tried once and knew I would never try again. I picked up Allan Carr's book for $15, thinking I just wasted $15, read the book and quit smoking when I finished it - actually had my last cigarette when I finished it. That was four years ago. I would call Allan Carr an "expert".

Someone who gets the desired result is an "expert". Someone with the proper credentials is a "professional" but not necessarily an 'expert".

I don't understand what successes you see? The successes of the drug rehab programs are walking the streets as far as I see. Why are they successes? They demonstrate how important drug rehab is and how needed it is in society. How else can they justify receipt of public money.

You may genuinely think those "professionals" are "helping". I don't because they haven't demonstrated any efficacy. They may succeed in getting one or two people who were on death's door and made the decision to live off their habits, who become the mouth-pieces for acquiring funding for the latest trendy theory in drug treatment that still does no better than the last experiment.

When I hear you say, "he is in the care of professionals, support systems, and people who genuinely care for him and have the capacity to help him" I wonder where you have been. The government should know about this and be right on it - getting people into rehab and off drugs. Wow!

All evidence seems to be to the contrary.

Success in drug rehab has to include that the addict no longer needs professional help and support systems, something those professionals will say are necessary for the rest of the addicts life. Guaranteed income! Lucky them!

Edited February 15, 2008 by Pliny

[rbacon]

I agree, but let's also test the teacher's, the cops, the judges, and the politicians, once a month randomly.

[DrGreenthumb]

I agree, but let's also test the teacher's, the cops, the judges, and the politicians, once a month randomly.

Why not just chip everyone so the government can know instantly when a substance that it determines to be "unhealthy" enters the body? It can then send some of its cops(see stormtroopers) to cage you or force you into one of their brainwashing camps(see rehab. or DARE)

The government will of course be free to update its list of prohibited substances, and the severity of punishment for consuming said substances whenever it sees fit.

[Pliny]

Why not just chip everyone so the government can know instantly when a substance that it determines to be "unhealthy" enters the body? It can then send some of its cops(see stormtroopers) to cage you or force you into one of their brainwashing camps(see rehab. or DARE)

The government will of course be free to update its list of prohibited substances, and the severity of punishment for consuming said substances whenever it sees fit.

Yes. Vitamins are apparently soon to be unavailable without a prescription if they are consumed above the RDA.

[Community Advocate]

All evidence seems to be to the contrary.

Success in drug rehab has to include that the addict no longer needs professional help and support systems, something those professionals will say are necessary for the rest of the addicts life. Guaranteed income! Lucky them!

The success is in the statistics within the evaluation of the Alberta legislation of 2006.

And, the success in a drug rehab, as I have recently learned, is NOT that the addict no longer needs professional help and support systems. They are necessary for some addicts to continue with in order to stay clean. The whole goal is to stay off the drugs, so whatever that takes for that individual is what is necessary. It's not about guaranteed income, it's about guaranteed support for the addict. Lucky them.