The Environment

[Hydraboss]

So the question is "are you ready to pay for it?"

Well then, let's look at some numbers and some more numbers.

Some on this board say that "a great majority" of Canadians are concerned about the environment and want to do something. So what about their immediate environment? What about garbage?

Global News last night and again this morning reported that the City of Edmonton has this Capital Clean Up program running again. Last year 8000 people volunteered to pick up trash and clean up the city.

Only one problem: According to the 2006 census, there are 730,372 people in Edmonton proper. 8000 volunteers? That's 8.7% of people that are concerned enough to be willing to actually do something. Where is the "great majority" when it comes to putting their money where their mouths are?

I think you'll see the same amazing commitment about the environment once prices start really climbing because of the Great Global Warming religion. It's fine and dandy to profess your outrage about GW, GHG and pollution, but when it's your turn to actually do something where does everyone go? What are people going to say when someone knocks at their door and says, "Sorry, but your five year old car can't be registered anymore because it doesn't meet the new standards. Please buy a new one."?

There appears to be more and more Gore-like hypocrites out there every day.

[noahbody]

Since it was long predicted that cold water currents would have an impact this year, it was hardly unexpected. Global warming deniers usually take every opportunity to step outside, announce it is cold and that global warming is a crock.

We'll see again in the summer if the winter ice is able to hold.

I guess it was hardly unexpected:

"The fact is there are natural cycles in sea ice extent and we're not outside the range of those natural cycles at the moment."

If the current reduction in ice cover is part of a natural cycle, ice cover should soon start to grow again, said Dick.

"We've definitely lost a lot of sea ice over the past 20 years.

"If this is a natural cycle, then things should start returning to a more average condition, so we should see sea ice thickening up and extending further south.

http://www.socc.ca/news_s/socc/2003/feb/27.html

[jdobbin]

I guess it was hardly unexpected:

http://www.socc.ca/news_s/socc/2003/feb/27.html

Your 2003 article shows it has been a pattern. To what extent it has been accelerated by global warming is what is being assesses. To deniers, the answer is no affect.

[Riverwind]

Since it was long predicted that cold water currents would have an impact this year, it was hardly unexpected.

BS. The 'prediction' for an La Nina was only made after it started. Before then all of the alarmists were predicting that 2007 would be the hottest year on record. The never ending stream of lies and obfuscations coming from AGW alarmists has become very tedious. Eventually, the data will show that global warming has been grossly exagerrated. I hope we have not trashed our economy by then.

[margrace]

Going back to the original question "Are you prepared to pay for it?" we already are, a hugh rise in health care costs repeating an old Itme but how many people do you know with leukemia and blood related cancers. Do you realize that a transplant comes in at over $250 thousand dollars in the US. Haven't priced it out here but now I think I will. I think our environment is killing us,yes we are already paying for it big time.

[Riverwind]

Going back to the original question "Are you prepared to pay for it?" we already are, a hugh rise in health care costs repeating an old Itme but how many people do you know with leukemia and blood related cancers. Do you realize that a transplant comes in at over $250 thousand dollars in the US. Haven't priced it out here but now I think I will. I think our environment is killing us,yes we are already paying for it big time.

If you care about healthcare costs then you should oppose any action on CO2 because reducing CO2 will increase the cost of everything by increasing the cost of energy. Increasing the cost of energy will also slow economic growth and reduce the amount of tax dollars available to pay for services which will inevitably lead to cuts in those services. Anyone who claims otherwise does not understand how much energy costs affect the economy.

[jdobbin]

BS. The 'prediction' for an La Nina was only made after it started. Before then all of the alarmists were predicting that 2007 would be the hottest year on record. The never ending stream of lies and obfuscations coming from AGW alarmists has become very tedious. Eventually, the data will show that global warming has been grossly exagerrated. I hope we have not trashed our economy by then.

Citation?

[margrace]

When poisons in the air and in our food are causing cancer I do think it is a pretty high price to pay. We have now lost 2 family members to Leukemia and one who has survived. Pretty expensive that.

[Keepitsimple]

The record expansion of arctic and antarctic ice is indeed a very big deal. The predicted apocolypse of Al Gore and Global Warming advocates is largely predicated on the rising of ocean levels due to the melting/shrinking of polar ice fields. Secondly, the ice fields act as a reflector for solar rays - the more ice we have, the less we are impacted by solar radiation - and the earth is this "cooled".

Just months after global warming alarmists attempted to scare people by claiming warming was causing a record shrinkage of Arctic sea ice, NASA scientists report the ice is now expanding at a record pace.

In September and October 2007, global warming activists achieved media headlines worldwide by asserting Arctic sea ice was at an all-time low and global warming was to blame.

The asserted "all-time" low extended back only to 1979, and NASA reported in November the Arctic sea is regenerating ice at a record pace. In addition, NASA scientists on October 4 published a study documenting how a recent change in Arctic regional wind patterns, rather than global warming, caused the briefly receding sea ice.

Further refuting the scare stories, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration reports Antarctic sea ice in 2007 reached its largest extent in recorded history.

"While the news focus has been on the lowest ice extent since satellite monitoring began in 1979 for the Arctic, the Southern Hemisphere [Antarctica] has quietly set a new record for most ice extent since 1979," said meteorologist Joe D'Aleo, executive director of the International Climate and Environmental Change Assessment Project.

"This winter has been an especially harsh one in the Southern Hemisphere, with cold and snow records set in Australia, South America, and Africa," D'Aleo added.

Link: http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=22610

Similar to the attention paid to the Polar regions, Gore and his buddies also focused on Glaciers around the world - especially in Switzerland. While it has been acknowledged that the glaciers have been slowly retreating over centuries, environmentalists say it's been accellerating at such a pace in the past 5 years that Swiss glaciers will completely disappear by 2050 - some say as early as 2037......so let's keep an eye on these glaciers as we continue to experience cold weather this winter. All in all, I think the best measure of Global Warming accuracy is to see how all their "predictions" actually turn out. Funny though how we see a lot of material in the media that supports Global Warming but precious little when disputing facts emerge.

Edited February 20, 2008 by Keepitsimple

[jdobbin]

Similar to the attention paid to the Polar regions, Gore and his buddies also focused on Glaciers around the world - especially in Switzerland. While it has been acknowledged that the glaciers have been slowly retreating over centuries, environmentalists say it's been accellerating at such a pace in the past 5 years that Swiss glaciers will completely disappear by 2050 - some say as early as 2037......so let's keep an eye on these glaciers as we continue to experience cold weather this winter. All in all, I think the best measure of Global Warming accuracy is to see how all their "predictions" actually turn out. Funny though how we see a lot of material in the media that supports Global Warming but precious little when disputing facts emerge.

Since scientists all along have said that weather patterns and ocean currents can cause fluctuations in temperature, it doesn't mean that global warming isn't happening. At the beginning of this year, colder temperatures were predicted because of the ocean current. It started slowly over North America but by January, pretty much all northern areas were being affected by the current.

It remains to be seen whether we'll have just as fast a melt when summer hits.

The right wing continues to try and say that nothing is happening and there is no need to do anything.

[oreodontist]

I'm a geologist and have never never witnessed worse science (call it voodoo prediction) than on global warming. Hysteria gone critical mass.

Greece, smaller than an olive on a pizza has a hot snap and it's more 'proof'....western Canada an area 27 times te size of Greece has the coldest two weeks in 11 years and it'd dismissed by the warming cultists.

Unfortunately the warming cultists may be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. 'Science' the most important tool to help protect the environment, is being cheapened to a religious fanaticism by the cultists. The warming cultists are akin to anti-evolutionary fundies....grasping at evidence with evangelial fervour..hell bent 'to prove' their new found belief.

Global warming? Man induced? Who the 'f...' knows? There's so much crap science held up by the cultists that credibility has been lost. Any science is buried in the hysteria. I've always been a stong environmnetalist but the movement, sadly, is hjiacked and morphed into more ideological poppycock.

[Riverwind]

Citation?

You are the one who made the claim that it was predicted all along. Why don't you provide a citation?

[jdobbin]

You are the one who made the claim that it was predicted all along. Why don't you provide a citation?

Right here.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...hub=CTVNewsAt11

The weather phenomenon La Nina will bring Canada the coldest winter in nearly 15 years, Environment Canada warned Friday.

Environment Canada's temperature forecast shows the majority of the country will experience a "temperature anomaly" of below-normal temperatures through the months of December, January and February.

Much of Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan, Alberta and parts of British Columbia and southern Ontario will also see above-normal precipitation.

David Phillips, senior climatologist with Environment Canada, told The Canadian Press that the temperature and precipitation abnormalities are likely the result of the weather phenomenon La Nina.

La Nina, meaning the little girl, is the appearance of cooler-than-normal waters in the eastern and central Pacific Ocean.

I can't remember one scientist ever saying the Arctic would be ice free in winter. Most were saying that the Arctic could be ice free by 2040 to 2050.

Earlier in the year, there was talk about El Nino and La Nina affecting how ice packs in the Arctic and Antarctic.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0110/p14s01-sten.html

Moreover, recent studies have shown that in key regions off the Antarctic coast, sea ice shows a strong, coherent response to El Niño-La Niña cycles, decade-scale climate swings in the tropical Pacific whose length, strength, and timing may be affected in uncertain ways by global warming. Indeed, outside the tropics, Antarctica boasts the strongest climate response to El Niño of any region on the planet. This suggests strong climate connections and feedbacks among sea, ice, and air in the Southern Ocean that are poorly understood.

Global warming deniers will continue to stand outside and to declare that it isn't happening.

[Riverwind]

Right here.

Sorry. The La Nina was already in progress by the summer:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/...70228093721.htm

A La Nina 'prediction' in the fall is not very interesting.

Meanwhile we had one of the main AGW outfits predicting that "The world is likely to experience the warmest year on record in 2007"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6228765.stm

A shining example of how useless AGW 'predictions' are.

I can't remember one scientist ever saying the Arctic would be ice free in winter. Most were saying that the Arctic could be ice free by 2040 to 2050.

Wrong again. Alarmists were predicting ice free summers by 2012:

Recently, NASA climate scientist Jay Zwally stated we do not have nearly that long before we experience an ice-free Arctic during the summer melt season. Zwally, who refers to the Arctic as the canary in the coal mine of climate warming, suggests we only have until 2012 before a complete summertime melt of the North Pole.

http://www.greendaily.com/2007/12/18/north...e-gone-by-2012/

Moreover, recent studies have shown that in key regions off the Antarctic coast, sea ice shows a strong, coherent response to El Niño-La Niña cycles, decade-scale climate swings in the tropical Pacific whose length, strength, and timing may be affected in uncertain ways by global warming

Decadal ENSO swings are likely one of the primary causes of climate change. In that last two months we have returned to the climate of the 60s-70s. The AGW crowd will, of course, try to claim that 'global warming causes the weather to get cold' and other such nonsense.

[jdobbin]

Sorry. The La Nina was already in progress by the summer:

A La Nina 'prediction' in the fall is not very interesting.

The strength of it wasn't fully known till the fall.

Meanwhile we had one of the main AGW outfits predicting that "The world is likely to experience the warmest year on record in 2007"

Wrong again. Alarmists were predicting ice free summers by 2012:

Some alarmist maybe. Environment Canada and others were not though.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/north-pol...5685658479.html

Note the 2040 in the header.

Decadal ENSO swings are likely one of the primary causes of climate change. In that last two months we have returned to the climate of the 60s-70s. The AGW crowd will, of course, try to claim that 'global warming causes the weather to get cold' and other such nonsense.

Climate scientists have always said that there would be fluctuations but that the trend was still one that showed warming. Global warming deniers will use every opportunity to...well, deny.

[Riverwind]

Climate scientists have always said that there would be fluctuations but that the trend was still one that showed warming.

One day you will realize that AGW is a hoax and there was never really any need to be concerned. I just hope that day will come before the world economy is trashed by a bunch of eco-fanatics.

[jdobbin]

One day you will realize that AGW is a hoax and there was never really any need to be concerned. I just hope that day will come before the world economy is trashed by a bunch of eco-fanatics.

Just as I'm sure that some on the right wing will realize that when large numbers of scientists say there is evidence of say...cancer resulting from smoking, they will believe it or at the very least try to put some credible research into the subject.

[noahbody]

Going back to the original question "Are you prepared to pay for it?" we already are, a hugh rise in health care costs repeating an old Itme but how many people do you know with leukemia and blood related cancers. Do you realize that a transplant comes in at over $250 thousand dollars in the US. Haven't priced it out here but now I think I will. I think our environment is killing us,yes we are already paying for it big time.

Honestly how many times does someone have to tell you that CO2 is part of nature and doesn't cause cancer?

You're implying breathing causes cancer. Great.

I'm all for cutting down on polution. In fact, if you want to improve humanity, how about a world effort on cleaning up the POLLUTION of China. That's affecting millions and millions now. With or without humans, the earth will be warmer and it will be cooler. And people will be displaced due to the changing of the climate.

Also let's put cigarette-like taxes on the Big Mac. On second thought, let's not. I'm hungry.

[noahbody]

Your 2003 article shows it has been a pattern. To what extent it has been accelerated by global warming is what is being assesses. To deniers, the answer is no affect.

Global warming is the pattern. Panicing while we are within a natural pattern is silly. Spending trillions on a problem which might not exist is idiotic.

[oreodontist]

. The AGW crowd will, of course, try to claim that 'global warming causes the weather to get cold' and other such nonsense.

So true. It's a reflection of their buying into the cult. 'Believers' can get themselves worked up into hysterical denial of reality. Evidence that isn't in accordance with their fanaticism is explained away.

[jdobbin]

Global warming is the pattern. Panicing while we are within a natural pattern is silly. Spending trillions on a problem which might not exist is idiotic.

Don't think I have said anything about panic or alarm. However, by acting now on what is recognized by the majority of scientists, we save ourselves a lot of money and grief later on.

It isn't unlike those who denied the effects of smoking. Coincidently, they are the ones who are often at the forefront of the global warming denial.

[margrace]

Can we afford to do anything about the environment, the bottom truth if we don't it won't matter a lot of us will be dead.

[White Doors]

Can we afford to do anything about the environment, the bottom truth if we don't it won't matter a lot of us will be dead.

OMG.

You are the absolute most obtuse poster on this board. You make a hyperbolic post that almost always has absolutely NOTHING to do with the truth, ignore all of the well thought out and reasoned posts and just come back with more.

Welcome to my ignore list once and for all.

You join such esteemed company as Oleg, jdobbin and now yourself.

[Oleg Bach]

Can we afford to do anything about the environment, the bottom truth if we don't it won't matter a lot of us will be dead.

Money is the cause of environmental collapse - so it makes sense that money is not the healing power to correct the mess..those that can pay to pollute and mutilate nature will only continue with silly carbon foot print stuff and just make bigger footprints and continue to trample all that is good,clean and natural..paying to pollute is absurd - and yes they will just call it one of the little prices of doing buisness...nope - money is not the answer - a new mind set is the answer - and a new mind can not be bought or sold - there must be the will to heal the damage..not a political will - but a singular human one. Most powerful people believe this is the heaven and they will plunder and go into oblivion after death...so it's burn the camp as you go mentality that is killing us. "There are violent men that take heaven by force" - this is heaven folks - your free will to make it a hell and aquire a billion bucks and under age hookers....it makes me ill that we have a type of finacial and industrial suicide bombers sitting in bank towers causing slow motion explosions that go un-noticed.

[jdobbin]

Welcome to my ignore list once and for all.

It has been a lot more peaceful since I made the list. A lot less sound and fury too with fewer personal attacks. Ah, the peace and quiet of being ignored.

I think the Stern Report made it clear that the price of not doing anything could result in up to 200 million more deaths a year due to consequences of warming.

Edited February 20, 2008 by jdobbin