Muslim father chokes daughter to near death

[guyser]

Do we really want to import that kind of thinking by "tolerating" men who strangle their own daughters because the Koran says it's ok?

No.

Has anyone argued we should?

[BC_chick]

Violence against women is a MAJOR problem in countries with Islamic theocracies.

Well let's see, violence against women happens all across the globe, so no, I wouldn't blame religion per se.

If you want to say there's more violence against women in Muslim countries, you better throw out some stats because I read something about some sort of domestic abuse/killing in the daily news in the 'west' as well...

As for the rest of the world... just look at violence against women in Southern Africa and other parts of south east asia and you'll see that there is a direct correlation between violence against women and poverty, Muslim or not.

"Honour-killings" are only labelled as such when the man happens to be religoius, but technically most domestic murders are some sort of honour killing (man's fragile ego) who can't handle a wife moving on from him. This is, again, not a Muslim phenomenon.

Hijab, and other customs that are misogynist in nature... you got me. There is no excuse for it.

Edited November 26, 2008 by BC_chick

[JerrySeinfeld]

Well let's see, violence against women happens all across the globe, so no, I wouldn't blame religion per se.

If you want to say there's more violence against women in Muslim countries, you better throw out some stats because I read something about some sort of domestic abuse/killing in the daily news in the 'west' as well...

As for the rest of the world... just look at violence against women in Southern Africa and other parts of south east asia and you'll see that there is a direct correlation between violence against women and poverty, Muslim or not.

"Honour-killings" are only labelled as such when the man happens to be religoius, but technically most domestic murders are some sort of honour killing (man's fragile ego) who can't handle a wife moving on from him. This is, again, not a Muslim phenomenon.

Hijab, and other customs that are misogynist in nature... you got me. There is no excuse for it.

Yea. A hardcore Wahabbist theocracy keeping statistics about "violence against women". baaahahaha

That just illustrates how ignorant those on the other side of this debate really are about the world.

But just as an appetizer, why don't you have a gander of what the ideal world for a hardcore Islamist looks like:

Link

Edited November 26, 2008 by JerrySeinfeld

[JerrySeinfeld]

If you want to say there's more violence against women in Muslim countries, you better throw out some stats because I read something about some sort of domestic abuse/killing in the daily news in the 'west' as well...

But hey, since you asked check out this link and scroll down to "women's rights". It's a discription of human rights in Saudi Arabia.

And pay some particular attention to the section about the law / courts / etc:

Women may not testify unless it is a personal matter that did not occur in the sight of men. The testimony of a woman is not regarded as fact but as presumption. The reasons women are forbidden to testify in proceedings because:

1.Women are much more emotional than men and will, as a result of their emotions, distort their testimony.

2.Women do not participate in public life, so they will not be capable of understanding what they observe.

3.Women are dominated completely by men, who by the grace of God are deemed superior; therefore, women will give testimony according to what the last man told them.

4.Women are forgetful, and their testimony cannot be considered reliable.

As a result of these laws women are vulnerable in cases of assault and/or rape, as their testimony is treated as a presumption, while that of their attackers is accepted as fact. In some cases, victims of sexual assault are punished on the grounds that they should not be alone with unrelated males. It happened recently when a woman, victim of a gang rape, was sentenced by a Saudi court to six months in prison and 200 lashes for violating laws on segregation of the sexes, as she was in an unrelated man's car at the time of the attack.

Yea, every country has it's problems with opression of women - right? rrrrriiiiight. Sounds JUST like Canada.

Edited November 26, 2008 by JerrySeinfeld

[BC_chick]

Yea. A hardcore Wahabbist theocracy keeping statistics about "violence against women". baaahahaha

That just illustrates how ignorant those on the other side of this debate really are about the world.

But just as an appetizer, why don't you have a gander of what the ideal world for a hardcore Islamist looks like:

Link

Do you think all women report violence here? right back at ya.

BTW, I'm not 'ignorant' about violence against women, I've studied the subject extensively.

Why do you think our native/low-income populations have the same problem? Why does an African woman get raped every 9 seconds? Why do Hindu women have such a disproportionate rate of domestic abuse?

There is only one common denominator here Jerry, and it's not Islam, it's poverty. Poverty breeds despair and despair breeds beating those than are weaker.

The same thing happens with women - those who are abused physically end up beating their children more as well.

Not to say rich men here or in Saudia Arabia don't beat their wives, but the culture of wife-beating is NOT a Muslim issue, it's a human issue.

But if it makes you feel superior, by all means, go ahead. It's because they're Muslim.

[BC_chick]

But hey, since you asked check out this link and scroll down to "women's rights". It's a discription of human rights in Saudi Arabia.

And pay some particular attention to the section about the law / courts / etc:

Yea, every country has it's problems with opression of women - right? rrrrriiiiight. Sounds JUST like Canada.

As I said in my first post, I can't defend the misogynist customs that Muslims practice, I'm only discussing violence against women.

[DogOnPorch]

None the less, numerous videos can be found online with severe looking bearded men talking about the right way to beat one's wife under Islam. I can't find similar videos for other religions...at least I can't find them.

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In the days after 9/11, we heard innumerable reprises of the lazy leftist trope 'poverty breeds terrorism.' But the Arab world is wealthy. It suffers, as David Pryce-Jones has said, from intellectual poverty.

---Mark Steyn

[BC_chick]

None the less, numerous videos can be found online with severe looking bearded men talking about the right way to beat one's wife under Islam. I can't find similar videos for other religions...at least I can't find them.

The Bible says the same thing. Oh, but wait, we've separated Church and State and yet men still beat their wives.

So... what's the culprit... religion or men?

[DogOnPorch]

The Bible says the same thing. Oh, but wait, we've separated Church and State and yet men still beat their wives.

So... what's the culprit... religion or men?

Both. When has a woman been so dumb as to have founded a religion? Can you show me some Christian material re: wife beating methods?

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It's a Daisy

[BC_chick]

Both. When has a woman been so dumb as to have founded a religion? Can you show me some Christian material re: wife beating methods?

-------------------------------------------------

It's a Daisy

The New Testament is generally more tame than the OT, especially regarding women. But that didn't stop good Christian men from having laws such as not beating your wife with a stick bigger than your thumb. Did it?

Now, even if we say the OT and NT are both beacons of feminist thought (which they're not), doesn't that strengthen my argument even more?

I mean, if Jewish and Christian men beat their women in spite of their religion telling them specifically not to... then religion can't be blamed for woman-beating then can it? It's obviously deeper than that.

Especially considering all the animist and hindu woman-beaters out there who don't even believe in monotheism yet beat their wives as bad as any muslim man out there.

[DogOnPorch]

Which leads us back to....

None the less, there are numerous videos available where severe bearded Muslim males talk about the correct method to beat one's wife.

So I ask you once more...no matter what the Bible says, can you show me similar videos or written material from Christians and Jews that give correct methods for beating your wife? I can't find any, but maybe you can.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

My wife has a slight impediment in her speech. Every now and then she stops to breathe.

---Jimmy Durante

[M.Dancer]

The Bible says the same thing.

Feel free to post the citation.

[BC_chick]

So I ask you once more...no matter what the Bible says, can you show me similar videos or written material from Christians and Jews that give correct methods for beating your wife? I can't find any, but maybe you can.

Think of a bunch of children in a classroom. They are all ADD and hyperactive. None of them are aware that they are hyperactive and/or downplay its symptoms.... except little Ahmed.

Little Ahmed's mom says his imaginary friends tells him to be hyperactive that's why he's hyperactive.....

Should I really care what little Ahmed's mom blames for her son's condition.... when all the other children are also ADD?

Edited November 27, 2008 by BC_chick

[M.Dancer]

Well, maybe you should read the title of this thread if you think that.

OK, so since you're not downplaying it, we can agree that this is a growing problem in the west and that it should be talked about and condemned by our society as something that is unacceptable in THIS culture?

I don't see any evidence that the problem is growing...none at all. Afterall, you say these people vote liberal, right?, therefore they probably share liberal feminist thought....

[DogOnPorch]

Think of a bunch of children in a classroom. They are all ADD and hyperactive. None of them are aware that they are hyperactive and/or downplay its symptoms.... except little Ahmed.

Little Ahmed's mom says his imaginary friends tells him to be hyperactive that's why he's hyperactive.....

Should I really care what little Ahmed's mom blames for her son's condition.... when all the other children are also ADD?

I gather that's a "no".

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Canada will be a strong country when Canadians of all provinces feel at home in all parts of the country, and when they feel that all Canada belongs to them.

---Pierre Trudeau

[BC_chick]

I gather that's a "no".

----------------------------------------

Canada will be a strong country when Canadians of all provinces feel at home in all parts of the country, and when they feel that all Canada belongs to them.

---Pierre Trudeau

It means what it means. Ask someone to help you with the difficult parts.

Here's a hint: it starts with an i... and ends with relevant.

Edited November 27, 2008 by BC_chick

[DogOnPorch]

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With women, I've got a long bamboo pole with a leather loop on the end. I slip the loop around their necks so they can't get away or come too close. Like catching snakes.

---Marlon Brando

[BC_chick]

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With women, I've got a long bamboo pole with a leather loop on the end. I slip the loop around their necks so they can't get away or come too close. Like catching snakes.

---Marlon Brando

Care for a pretzel?

[DogOnPorch]

Pass the butter.

----------------

Chef: Why do all you guys sit on your helmets?

Soldier: So we don't get our balls blown off.

---Apocalypse Now!

[Slim MacSquinty]

How can two people who think they're so smart so completely miss the point, your argument is not about religion, its about culture, Christians, Jew and Muslims have as the foundation for their religions the Old Testament. So they are in essence preaching the same principles. The difference is culture. Under the Arab Islamic governments the law is interpreted by religious Mullahs who are invariably mysoginists, and would probably equate to the western idea of law sometime around 1400 before King James had the new testament translated to English, and thereafter allowed the separation of church and state.

The difference is that in these Arab Muslim states the culture promotes these antiquated ideas and coupled with other cultural woes like tribalism leads to the ridiculous idea that the head of the family needs to control the actions of all his subordinates, hence the idea that he is justified going so far as killing the offending woman if she brings shame on the tribe. Our silly system of blind multiculturalism allows this culture to transport itself to pockets within our communities.

The problem we face is not to fight the religion, but to overcome the culture which allows such travesties.

[DogOnPorch]

How can two people who think they're so smart so completely miss the point, your argument is not about religion, its about culture, Christians, Jew and Muslims have as the foundation for their religions the Old Testament. So they are in essence preaching the same principles. The difference is culture. Under the Arab Islamic governments the law is interpreted by religious Mullahs who are invariably mysoginists, and would probably equate to the western idea of law sometime around 1400 before King James had the new testament translated to English, and thereafter allowed the separation of church and state.

The difference is that in these Arab Muslim states the culture promotes these antiquated ideas and coupled with other cultural woes like tribalism leads to the ridiculous idea that the head of the family needs to control the actions of all his subordinates, hence the idea that he is justified going so far as killing the offending woman if she brings shame on the tribe. Our silly system of blind multiculturalism allows this culture to transport itself to pockets within our communities.

The problem we face is not to fight the religion, but to overcome the culture which allows such travesties.

You have a point, there.

-------------------------

Hoover: We're in trouble. I just checked with the guys at the Jewish house and they said that every one of our answers on the Psych test was wrong.

Boon: Every one?

[looks at Bluto and D-Day]

Boon: Those assholes must have stolen the wrong f**king exam!

---Animal House

[cybercoma]

Oh. Well the silence was deafening.

I didn't realize I was supposed to sit in front of my computer waiting for you to post. Besides, you haven't said anything worth replying to anyway. You continue to isolate incidences of Muslim violence against women while ignoring the fact that there is violence against women in all culture. The problem is the violence itself, not the religion of the people doing it, since that is variable. But, there's no point in me even posting that because you're just going to continue to ignore that gaping hole in your reasoning.

[cybercoma]

Strange thing... The Muslim Women's League put out a statement 13 years ago about violence against women:

http://www.mwlusa.org/topics/violence&...t/violence.html

[BC_chick]

How can two people who think they're so smart so completely miss the point, your argument is not about religion, its about culture, Christians, Jew and Muslims have as the foundation for their religions the Old Testament. So they are in essence preaching the same principles. The difference is culture. Under the Arab Islamic governments the law is interpreted by religious Mullahs who are invariably mysoginists, and would probably equate to the western idea of law sometime around 1400 before King James had the new testament translated to English, and thereafter allowed the separation of church and state.

The difference is that in these Arab Muslim states the culture promotes these antiquated ideas and coupled with other cultural woes like tribalism leads to the ridiculous idea that the head of the family needs to control the actions of all his subordinates, hence the idea that he is justified going so far as killing the offending woman if she brings shame on the tribe. Our silly system of blind multiculturalism allows this culture to transport itself to pockets within our communities.

The problem we face is not to fight the religion, but to overcome the culture which allows such travesties.

I was just pointing out that it's a very unscientific argument to say a cultural belief is responsible for a negative behaviour when that same negative behaviour is found in virtually every single culture around the world.

As for multiculturalism and the Muslim faith - you've established that Muslims (speaking generally) are behind Jews and Christians in their evolution toward gender equality. I agree. But compared to some other cultures around the world, I'm not sure....

Every time there's a domestic abuse issue here in Vancouver with the Indo-Canadian community the same thing starts about whether or not multiculturalism is a good idea. I don't know... the expression throwing the baby out with the bathwater comes to mind if we want to stop immigration from all these countries.

Edited November 27, 2008 by BC_chick

[Slim MacSquinty]

The fact that violence against women, indeed violence at all, happens in all cultures does not really add to the arguement, the reason I say this is because in our culture and most other western cultures in law and in culture our society does not advocate, or tolerate violence against women. Indeed our society does not tolerate any violence some might say even justified violence such as self defence.

However, in many Arab Islamic states the concept of vengeful justice, familial violence and dictatorial control are widely accepted cultural and legal principles. Hence as a woman one can easily seek refuge and justice in the west, where would a woman turn in these backward societies?